Siegfried Poking/mixup Discussion

Synraii said:
I meant step WSB, not the followup.
Click to expand...
i know, but you would have to bait WR B. its not like you could just simply react to WR B in a blink of an eye to step it with out any sort of planning or anything. its i17 which is very fast. faster than some people can even react.

hotnikkelz said:
u got WS A and throws for that :)
Click to expand...
i really wouldnt reccomend WR A unless used as a last resort because its not particularily good at killing step, despite being ridiculously punishable. if you really must kill step from FC, i would seriously suggest throwing out a 4_6A before telling you to WR A.
 
Synraii said:
Baiting it isn't difficult, it's like baiting WS B from kilik - surely you do that regularly?
Click to expand...
meh i dont really bother with the stance antics vs kilik though. i'd rather just step his WR B and hit him with 3B afterwards. just is so much easier.
 
Easier and still effective, but I'm talking about Siegs WS B - Kilik was an analogy =P
I just prefer the oki to 3B punishment, my wakeup game is stronger now and I can cause a lot more trouble with a 62 dmg techtrap to throw into the equation to =\.
3B is still a good alternative though, if I needed damage now it's what I would do.
 
well 3B itself also has alot of good options. 3{B} SCH K 6B+K SRSH is 42dmg + options for either forced block SRSH A+B, or non-interruptable 50-50 mixup between SRSH K and SRSH B for potential additional 70 damage. and if you punish with WR {B}, i believe 6B+K SRSH K is a techtrap. or even better you can go for the classic 1B. or the simple 3A for zoning. and if ur reaction is a little slow, b6 is always a good option to throw out since its safe anyways. however 2_8B+K is a nice option if you know they're going to use a vertical. but even then sometimes it doesnt step which is what i dont like about it. however i do admit i can see where it would prove useful, and the tech trap is an unexpected option. even if they stop teching u get a 3B for guaranteed damage + zoning i believe.
 
Here's some random stuff I'd like to address:
Seig's WR A is best used against Ivy's 214B*214{B}, its punishment and catches her quite well... Seig's WR{A} is really only good on hit or against certain characters... SCH K is horrible, even SCH KK, all people need to do is 2A after blocking the first kick, then Seig gets punished due to SCH K being negative or 2A TC'ing the second kick... After SRSH K, SRSH A+B combo I've found 6B to be most effective against teching opponents, and 33B to be great at catching ground rollers, both moves are essentially unsafe but have outs due to spacing and matchups, I recommend 6B and 33B over the WR AA followup 100%... Last, I've reduced Seig's moveset to the bare minimum:
  • b6 and 3K are the essential Mid attacks.
  • K (i13)/ 6K (i14)/ b6 (i16)/ 3B (i17)/ WR {B}/ and 1B (i24), are primarily for whiff and block punishment.
  • 1K and 2A are basic lows, 1K being the best option, 2A for range.
  • a;g;A is Seig's best step catch and can trick impatient opponents into frame traps on guard. 6A can also be used to catch step, being faster and able to be used from crouched makes it a good choice however it can be punished around close range.
  • a+kA is the basic poke and mixup setup, being high its best used at mid range, at its most effective range you can apply a deadly mixup between a+kA2A and a+k{A}, SCH B with the first option being a frame trap and the second being your Mid option to mix with.
  • 6B/ B4/ b:4/ 4K/ 44{B}/ SRSH A+B/ SCH B/ SSH B/ and SBH B are Seig's main SCD attacks each with thier own advantages.
  • Standing Throw (A+B*B+G)...
  • SRSH B and SRSH K is Seig's most damaging mixup, although his least safe mixup...
 
ZOMBIEBEAR666 said:
SCH K is horrible, even SCH KK, all people need to do is 2A after blocking the first kick, then Seig gets punished due to SCH K being negative or 2A TC'ing the second kick...
Click to expand...

Is this consistently and easily doable in a match? Also, what of SCH kB?

Otherwise, very nice read. Should help new player a lot, and not a bad read for helping myself refine my moveset.
 
Heaton said:
Is this consistently and easily doable in a match? Also, what of SCH kB?

Otherwise, very nice read. Should help new player a lot, and not a bad read for helping myself refine my moveset.
Click to expand...
-k{B} is fairly nice, and it makes up for SCH K and SCH KK's vulnerabilities. on hit it frame traps into SBH K, with resonable potential to take risk into a somewhat risky stance transition mixup(+4 isnt really ideal, but the transition has a frame trap backing it up for fear advantage) and it's reasonable to throw out SBH A to prevent step, or even B for TC and SG damage. on block, its only -5, so some limited evasive maneuvers can be taken to avoid retaliation(SBH will impact 2A's, 2_8B+K will do an average job of stepping verts, and some kick attacks can be spaced out by SSH for free whiff punish)
ZOMBIEBEAR666 said:
Here's some random stuff I'd like to address:

Seig's WR A is best used against Ivy's 214B*214{B}, its punishment and catches her quite well... Seig's WR{A} is really only good on hit or against certain characters... SCH K is horrible, even SCH KK, all people need to do is 2A after blocking the first kick, then Seig gets punished due to SCH K being negative or 2A TC'ing the second kick... After SRSH K, SRSH A+B combo I've found 6B to be most effective against teching opponents, and 33B to be great at catching ground rollers, both moves are essentially unsafe but have outs due to spacing and matchups, I recommend 6B and 33B over the WR AA followup 100%... Last, I've reduced Seig's moveset to the bare minimum:
  • b6 and 3K are the essential Mid attacks.
  • K (i13)/ 6K (i14)/ b6 (i16)/ 3B (i17)/ and 1B (i24), are primarily for whiff and block punishment.
  • 1K and 2A are basic lows, 1K being the best option, 2A for range.
  • a;g;A is Seig's best step catch and can trick impatient opponents into frame traps on guard.
  • a+kA is the basic poke and mixup setup, being high its best used at mid range, at its most effective range you can apply a deadly mixup between a+kA2A and a+k{A}, SCH B with the first option being a frame trap and the second being your Mid option to mix with.
  • 6B/ B4/ b:4/ 4K/ 44{B}/ SRSH A+B/ SCH B/ SSH B/ and SBH B are Seig's main SCD attacks each with thier own advantages.
  • Standing Throw (A+B*B+G)...
  • SRSH B and SRSH K is Seig's most damaging mixup, although his least safe mixup...
Click to expand...

-dont forget 6A as a step kill. it can be executed from FC, and is great for emergencies. very fast, and gets the job done. entering stance can sometimes outspace punishment on grd.
-IMO 3A is also a fairly essential mid attack, not for its step killing ability(which isnt the best) or its safety, but the fact that it's one of the safer mid horizontal's in sieg's move list, and can shut down alot of evasive stuff. as far as i know it cant be STC'd either.
-sieg's A mixes up nicely with a+kA, and being only -2 on grd can even warrant him to take a risk and attack after.
-im not so sure about a+k{A} SCH B being a mixup with a+kA2A, but i know SCH K catches alot of opponents off guard at that range. SCH A combo's off a+k{A} on hit, and SCH KK/kB does the same, although they require closer range.
-dont forget about 1B or 66B @ tip range for SG damage. most characters cannot punish these at all from that range due to the pushback.
-1A works great for certain oki situations, and it shuts down rolling pretty well.

what is your opinion on WR {A}/WR A follow up after SRSH {K} ~ SRSH A+B combo? i find that this too has had some fairly decent success.
 
@Heaton: Yeah, SCH K just has to be a move to look out for is all, characters with a faster TC are even more devastating to using SCH K due to the fact that an earlier TC means the opponent doesn't have to pickup on SCH K straight away and can delay thier interrupt that much more... Cassy's 2B+K for example TC's at i4...

@Slayer: 6A is alright, well at least worth noting... It can even be used as punishment, speaking of which I forgot to add WR {B} for punishment... I would however recomment 6A over 66A, due to the speed difference, and the fact that although they're equally unsafe, 6A's pushback can suppress punishment better... If you don't mind, I'll add 6A to the list...
I wouldn't say 3A is too great, it's borderline at best, hell!, I react to it ONLINE and try my best to at least punish that shit... Sure its Mid Horizontal, sure I'll even throw it out, but this is about Sig's essentials and I was thinking about cutting back the list even more, but basically its there to build your game off of, its not necessarily a guide as in "these are the only moves you should work with", rather its something to fall back on...
a+kA2A is a mixup with a+k{A}, SCH B because the second hit of a+kA2A, which is low, is unterruptable... So it would be like mixing between an unterruptable Low and a Soul Guage damaging Mid... SCH B can also stop GI-crazy players from buffering thier GI against the low hit... Keep in mind this mixup is most effective at mid range...
SCH kB is bad m'kay... The trick around it is to stay defensive once you enforce the Sig player to start relying on this unsafe option, and look for it while interrupting stupid stance dancing shenanegans... I think if SCH kB were to hit an opponent interrupting SCH K, you would get the CH property, but to think that this move is the only way out of getting 2A'd is a bit of a shakey situation, well too shakey for my liking at least but its up to you...
Yeah, WR AA after SRSH {K}, SRSH A+B combo is bad m'kay... I've noticed that I can either stay down n' roll or wait for the WR A and interrupt Sig before the Low can hit me, as well as interrupt the transition into SSH before Sig can SSH A+B away, hopefully... I might be able to interrupt the WR Aa2 cancel, but who actually does this?.. I'd like to see at least 1 Sig player I've never met use 33B afterward to try catching me on the ground...
1B and 66B for SGD??? No thanks... 66B is reactable AND unsafe (compared to SRSH A+B), although 1B might find an exception if you miss the timing for a whiff punish but its better in that field anyway...
1A is too situational to be an essential for the list, both hits of 1AA are reactable but I do believe Sig's 1A is a fair low even though as a poke its gimmicky...
 
well a+kA2A isnt completely uninterruptable; amy can fit 6BB in between the 1st and second hit i believe, and most standard K's will trade. but regardless i've never seen it done in practical execution.
 
Synraii said:
I found X can AAB you, much to my displeasure ~_~
Click to expand...
yea pretty much any move that is i12 or faster can shut that tactic down completely assuming they're in range to connect. but then you've also got A pokes which you can mix in with it all to throw out TC moves after since A and a+kA look the same.
 
Heaton said:
Is this consistently and easily doable in a match? Also, what of SCH kB?

Otherwise, very nice read. Should help new player a lot, and not a bad read for helping myself refine my moveset.
Click to expand...
Yeah SCH KK is easy to block the 1st hit and interrupt the 2nd hit with a 2A. You can counter that by stance changing into base hold and auto-gi'ing the 2A (I seem to recall that working). Even worse though, if I just duck the 2nd kick, I get a free 236:{B} 2B8BAA punish on you.
 
@Andur
Nope, transitioning into SBH will not IMP 2A's after 3{B} or SCH K if you 2A quick enough, which shouldn't be a problem since you have to be quick anyway... The only thing I might see working is 4B+K into SSH to backstep, spacing 2A's to make them whiff, this would really work best after 3{B} cause we all know SCH K can't reach... Also ducking the 2nd kick and going into FC 236:B with Cass is gonna be a bitch, I bet you could pull it off, but on reaction in the middle of a match where good Sig's know the ins and outs of SCH K, might be impossible... Not only that but I don't think iFC 236:B can interrupt a following SCH K, they don't have to do both kicks, if you want to be more effective I'd stick to trying 2B+K with Cass...

@Slayer
Which is why the mixup is character and range dependant... Its still a plausible mixup becuase of a+kA's initial animation and range... Since its a multioptional mixup you can build off of it based on your opponents habbits in following rounds... Stick to one or two options then go into the high a+kAA or pull back and just do the first hit a+kA, the first hit is still very amazing since its +10 on hit, you can a;g;A for a frame trap etc...
 
ZOMBIEBEAR666 said:
The only thing I might see working is 4B+K into SSH to backstep, spacing 2A's to make them whiff, this would really work best after 3{B} cause we all know SCH K can't reach...
Click to expand...

I would question even that working, since 4B+K from Chief Hold has the shortest backstep out of all the stances - he just lets his sword down and doesn't get much of a backstep at all. I would think it would have to be perfectly spaced for SCH 4B+K to be the only way to make something whiff from a blocked 3(B).
 
Personally I don't see the necessity of the discussion - if you're using 3B any closer than tip range you've put yourself into a world of problems and frankly deserve to be punished.
HOWEVER, in this situation, many players can opt to go for NCCs if they're fast enough because of SCH K/A eg: X AAB etc. And if this situation frequently occurs in a match, it's not a bad idea to just stand there, block the ncc hit and regain advantage, minimising damage in the process. It's a masochistic answer but an option nevertheless.
 
ZOMBIEBEAR666 said:
@Andur
Nope, transitioning into SBH will not IMP 2A's after 3{B} or SCH K if you 2A quick enough, which shouldn't be a problem since you have to be quick anyway... The only thing I might see working is 4B+K into SSH to backstep, spacing 2A's to make them whiff, this would really work best after 3{B} cause we all know SCH K can't reach... Also ducking the 2nd kick and going into FC 236:B with Cass is gonna be a bitch, I bet you could pull it off, but on reaction in the middle of a match where good Sig's know the ins and outs of SCH K, might be impossible... Not only that but I don't think iFC 236:B can interrupt a following SCH K, they don't have to do both kicks, if you want to be more effective I'd stick to trying 2B+K with Cass...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I ended up trying that out myself and found it didn't work at all. I know I've had Siegfried's do that to me online, but, that would just be latency delaying my 2A into the auto-gi frames I guess. And I agree, there's no way to iFC 236:B punish SCH K SCH K, (the 2nd one being effectively i16) that relies entirely upon guessing right and ducking SCH KK. 2B+K is 1 frame too slow and will be beaten by SCH K SCH K. Its not all that hard to train yourself to recognize and 236:{B} the 2nd SCH KK hit, even in the middle of a match against a good Siegfried.
Regardless, 2A beats both options cleanly with no need to react/interpret what is going on, which is why I think both of them are bad as a poke/mixup. But I by no means main Siegfried, I'm just a Cass player who dabbles with him some to better understand the matchup.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back