MystSilver
[09] Warrior
I think you're 100% right about the chip damage, I hadn't even considered that. Thanks! That makes a lot more sense than some random hidden modifier.
Soul Calibur 6: Technical Gameplay discussion
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I think you're 100% right about the chip damage, I hadn't even considered that. Thanks! That makes a lot more sense than some random hidden modifier.
Slade
[14] Master
The clash system is tied to "move levels" — a confusing name for what level of GI applies to each move, not to be confused with hit level (low, medium, high). Moves can be light, medium, or heavy, corresponding to GI levels 3, 2, and 1, respectively.
On a clash between two moves of the same level, neither move wins. On a clash between two moves with a difference in one level (heavy vs. medium or medium vs. light), the heavier move wins, giving significant advantage (free launcher in at least some cases; need to check if it depends on the specific moves or if it's universal). On a clash between a heavy move and a light move, the heavy move negates the light move entirely and keeps going. These rules only apply to weapon-based attacks, since non-weapon attacks cannot clash and will trade instead.
This can complicate frame traps. One example is attempting to interrupt Azwel after blocking his 6AA. At -2 an i12 AA will beat all of the moves he has in ax mode except for 6B, which trades, but because his 6B is medium, it will give him advantage from that clash.
H/T @Sabrewylf, who posted about this first in the Geralt Discord.
On a clash between two moves of the same level, neither move wins. On a clash between two moves with a difference in one level (heavy vs. medium or medium vs. light), the heavier move wins, giving significant advantage (free launcher in at least some cases; need to check if it depends on the specific moves or if it's universal). On a clash between a heavy move and a light move, the heavy move negates the light move entirely and keeps going. These rules only apply to weapon-based attacks, since non-weapon attacks cannot clash and will trade instead.
This can complicate frame traps. One example is attempting to interrupt Azwel after blocking his 6AA. At -2 an i12 AA will beat all of the moves he has in ax mode except for 6B, which trades, but because his 6B is medium, it will give him advantage from that clash.
H/T @Sabrewylf, who posted about this first in the Geralt Discord.
FleshMasher
[13] Hero
Yes i was surprised.
I clashed Taki's 2A with the second part of Groh's 6AA.
Groh recovered normally, while Taki recovered in an animation like after being Guard Impacted.
I clashed Taki's 2A with the second part of Groh's 6AA.
Groh recovered normally, while Taki recovered in an animation like after being Guard Impacted.
Sabrewylf
[01] Neophyte
Thanks for the shout-out, but really there is more to it than what I first discovered. I hope you guys know a bit of French. The guys over in the French community Discord were way ahead of my baby discovery.
https://www.soulcalibur.fr/threads/mécanique-des-clashs-et-collisons-simultanées-dans-soulcalibur-vi.14759/
I'm very rusty myself so I'll try to summarize a few key points.
There are 4 types of clash: equal vertical clash, lost vertical clash, equal horizontal clash, lost horizontal clash. Kicks cannot clash. Jump attacks also cannot clash. They will simply trade. Verticals seem to beat horizontals, and within them there is a typical light/medium/heavy distinction as well.
If you get the "equal" animation, then it seems you're more or less zero and thus back to neutral. I guessed this right in my video. But if one wins the attack and you get that GI-like animation, there is frame advantage. However unlike what I assumed, it does not guarantee a 3B. The frame data varies depending on what specific attacks clashed.
There's more in that article than that but the key mistake in my video is that a 3B is not always guaranteed off that animation. Unless you're using it in the way I suggested: specifically throwing out a B (as a baseline character with an i14 B) when you're +2 to catch them pressing an i12 2A/AA. That seems to grant exactly 20 or perhaps 21 frames of advantage, as I can hit Geralt's i20 3B off of it but his i22 4B will get blocked.
https://www.soulcalibur.fr/threads/mécanique-des-clashs-et-collisons-simultanées-dans-soulcalibur-vi.14759/
I'm very rusty myself so I'll try to summarize a few key points.
There are 4 types of clash: equal vertical clash, lost vertical clash, equal horizontal clash, lost horizontal clash. Kicks cannot clash. Jump attacks also cannot clash. They will simply trade. Verticals seem to beat horizontals, and within them there is a typical light/medium/heavy distinction as well.
If you get the "equal" animation, then it seems you're more or less zero and thus back to neutral. I guessed this right in my video. But if one wins the attack and you get that GI-like animation, there is frame advantage. However unlike what I assumed, it does not guarantee a 3B. The frame data varies depending on what specific attacks clashed.
There's more in that article than that but the key mistake in my video is that a 3B is not always guaranteed off that animation. Unless you're using it in the way I suggested: specifically throwing out a B (as a baseline character with an i14 B) when you're +2 to catch them pressing an i12 2A/AA. That seems to grant exactly 20 or perhaps 21 frames of advantage, as I can hit Geralt's i20 3B off of it but his i22 4B will get blocked.
FleshMasher
[13] Hero
I wonder if, because the clash loser is in that GIed animation, can the loser GI a follow up attack?
Like a reGI?
Like a reGI?
Sabrewylf
[01] Neophyte
Nope, impossible.
darkfender
[10] Knight
I strongly doubt that.
Lost count of how many raph 6BB clashed with opponent AA (i reliably use 6BB to stop a xianghua string after a -2)
Lost count of how many raph 6BB clashed with opponent AA (i reliably use 6BB to stop a xianghua string after a -2)
Slade
[14] Master
Some anti-Soul-Charge tech from @Pantocrator, @DeathInMyEyes, and @Protoman:
Unknown video
The only things in common seem to be ground attack throws or moves that spin the opponent in the air. (Ivy 8A+B(B) works too.)
EDIT: More
https://twitter.com/nezgiyo/status/1066257069928411136
Unknown video
The only things in common seem to be ground attack throws or moves that spin the opponent in the air. (Ivy 8A+B(B) works too.)
EDIT: More
https://twitter.com/nezgiyo/status/1066257069928411136
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Slade
[14] Master
iWR and iFC add 5F to move startup, same as in SCV. RCC adds 1F.
Raph iWR BB trades with i15 Inferno 3K at 0, and interrupts i16 2K:
Raph iWR BB can’t punish -14 Grøh 66AA:
Raph RCC 3K trades with i15 Inferno 3K at 0 after force crouch:
This also gives an easier way to test odd-numbered frames, since it works with any character.
Raph iWR BB trades with i15 Inferno 3K at 0, and interrupts i16 2K:
Raph iWR BB can’t punish -14 Grøh 66AA:
Raph RCC 3K trades with i15 Inferno 3K at 0 after force crouch:
This also gives an easier way to test odd-numbered frames, since it works with any character.
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Slade
[14] Master
Regular throws are 0 when broken.
Command throws are +8.
I heard the break window on Ivy’s iCS is 4 frames. Does anyone know what the window is on regular grabs and non-Ivy command grabs? In SCV it was 13F for normal grabs, 9F for command grabs.
EDIT: According to @Protoman ’s testing, regular grabs have a 14F break window and command grabs have a 10F break window. This makes sense given that everything in SCVI is rounded to an even number for no reason. Also, apparently Geralt’s BE throw has a 15F break window.
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SilentWall
[10] Knight
Thanks Sabrewylf to explain the Move Level, GI Level and the Weapon Clash system.
So that mean
Heavy Level = GI level 1
Medium Level = GI level 2
Light Level = = GI level 3
When the vertical move VS horizontal move clash, vertical move will be considered one level higher than normal.
Anyway, I found the Weapon Clash motion frames which is 50 frames.
Weapon Clash advantage = 50 - Recovery#
So that mean
Heavy Level = GI level 1
Medium Level = GI level 2
Light Level = = GI level 3
When the vertical move VS horizontal move clash, vertical move will be considered one level higher than normal.
Anyway, I found the Weapon Clash motion frames which is 50 frames.
Weapon Clash advantage = 50 - Recovery#
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Slade, I have tested Xianghua's and Mina's throw. I found some tricky things.
For their A+G (front and side), there are 17 breaking frames from 2nd to 18th frames after the impact.
For their 4A+G (front and side), there are 18 breaking frames from 2nd to 19th frames after the impact.
Dual input (A and 4A) works on any throw break. However, if the player input the wrong command first in any throw breaking windows, it will shorten the length of the input windows up to 13th frame. For example: if the player input the wrong command A first and then input 4A at 14th frame, the throw will not break. In other words, the player must input 4A before 14th frame to break the throw. I think that is the punishment for the dual input.
However, it will not affect on Mina's command throws.
Does Bamco do it on purpose? =)
For their A+G (front and side), there are 17 breaking frames from 2nd to 18th frames after the impact.
For their 4A+G (front and side), there are 18 breaking frames from 2nd to 19th frames after the impact.
Dual input (A and 4A) works on any throw break. However, if the player input the wrong command first in any throw breaking windows, it will shorten the length of the input windows up to 13th frame. For example: if the player input the wrong command A first and then input 4A at 14th frame, the throw will not break. In other words, the player must input 4A before 14th frame to break the throw. I think that is the punishment for the dual input.
However, it will not affect on Mina's command throws.
Does Bamco do it on purpose? =)
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Slade
[14] Master
Breakdown of the startup of Soul Charge:
If you get hit on the first two frames when trying to activate Soul Charge, nothing will happen. You get hit but you lose no meter. If you get hit on the third frame, you will spend a bar of meter and get hit out of the animation. If you get hit on frames 4 or 5, you’re invincible and Soul Charge will activate. The explosion comes out on F6.
Tests with Grøh:
F1: 4A6 (+11) -> AVN B (i12): no activation
F2: CH 3K (+10) -> AA (i12): no activation
F3: A+B6 (+9) -> AVN B (i12): hit out of activation
F4: CH 3K (+10) -> BB (i14): activation beats attack
F5: 4A6 (+11) -> AVN K (i16): activation beats attack
If you get hit on the first two frames when trying to activate Soul Charge, nothing will happen. You get hit but you lose no meter. If you get hit on the third frame, you will spend a bar of meter and get hit out of the animation. If you get hit on frames 4 or 5, you’re invincible and Soul Charge will activate. The explosion comes out on F6.
Tests with Grøh:
F1: 4A6 (+11) -> AVN B (i12): no activation
F2: CH 3K (+10) -> AA (i12): no activation
F3: A+B6 (+9) -> AVN B (i12): hit out of activation
F4: CH 3K (+10) -> BB (i14): activation beats attack
F5: 4A6 (+11) -> AVN K (i16): activation beats attack
Slade
[14] Master
Posting this here because I need a place to post it and it doesn’t merit its own thread.
Azwel’s CE in sword mode is i13 and Geralt’s RE K is -13 on block.
Azwel’s sword CE can’t punish Geralt’s 1AA, Grøh’s 66K, or 2B’s BB, all of which are -12 on block. It can punish Grøh’s 44K, which is -14. It can also punish Geralt’s RE K on block, which I thought was -12, because it can’t be punished by Yoshimitsu’s b:A, Sophitia’s 236B, or Azwel’s 6B.
It’s possible that all 3 of those moves are only i14 at close or mid range, and that they’re all at least a frame slower at tip, preventing them from punishing RE K. To confirm that this wasn’t the case, I also tested to see what clashes with what after Geralt’s RE K on block. It turns out that nothing with an even impact frame clashes if you buffer the inputs properly, indicating that RE K is not an even number on block. I did 10 clash tests, setting 2P Geralt to do a recording in which he gets RE K blocked then does the move on the right in the parentheses, while 1P Geralt buffers the move on the left:
At least -11: i24 beats i14 (4K vs. BB)
At least -13: i24 beats i12 (4K vs. 2A)
At least -13: i30 beats i18 (66BB vs. 6B)
Less than -14: i26 loses to i12 (1A, 1B vs. 2A)
Less than -14: i30 loses to i16 (66BB vs. 3A, 6A)
Less than -14: i36 loses to i22 (A+B vs. 4B, 4A)
Less than -16: i32 loses to i16 (6[K] vs. 3A)
Scuffle also agrees that RE K is -13 on block (for what that’s worth).
The only explanation for this behavior is that RE K is -13 on block. This isn't all that weird. It’s possible that RE K is “actually” -14 on block, but because of how RE works, it only hits at tip range, where it’s 1F safer. (There are lots of moves that are 1F off their normal values at tip range; Groh’s BB is i15 at tip but i14 elsewhere.) What is weird is that Azwel’s sword CE punishes it but not -12 moves.
I tried some additional tests to verify if Azwel’s CE was i13, but couldn’t find a definitive answer. It’s invincible from F12 onward:
F11: Loses to i17 (Inferno 6K) at -6 (blocked AA)
F12: Beats i18 (Inferno 2A) at -6 (blocked AA)
… which means there’s no reason to expect it to clash like normal moves do. I tried testing to see if it clashed with other CEs, but this didn’t go anywhere — Grøh’s i16 CE beats Azwel’s allegedly i14 sword CE when Grøh is at -2 (Grøh lands B then does CE).
So: Azwel’s sword CE must be i13. If anyone can prove this wrong that’d be great, because I hate anomalies. But it seems to be the case.
Some video evidence (I didn’t record the clash tests because it’d take forever to edit them together):
Azwel CE can’t punish 1AA, can punish RE K; 6B can’t punish RE K.
Stab can’t punish RE K.
b:A can’t punish RE K.
60FPS footage of Azwel’s CE in sword mode, with captions showing the start. You can see when the game enters and exists the CE cutscene by looking for duplicated frames — there’s a stitch in the animations where you see the same frame twice. If you look for these and count up the frames you’ll see that it freezes on F11, then resumes on F12 and hits on F13. This method may not be reliable (the capture software might not be synced to the game’s framerate).
Azwel’s CE in sword mode is i13 and Geralt’s RE K is -13 on block.
Azwel’s sword CE can’t punish Geralt’s 1AA, Grøh’s 66K, or 2B’s BB, all of which are -12 on block. It can punish Grøh’s 44K, which is -14. It can also punish Geralt’s RE K on block, which I thought was -12, because it can’t be punished by Yoshimitsu’s b:A, Sophitia’s 236B, or Azwel’s 6B.
It’s possible that all 3 of those moves are only i14 at close or mid range, and that they’re all at least a frame slower at tip, preventing them from punishing RE K. To confirm that this wasn’t the case, I also tested to see what clashes with what after Geralt’s RE K on block. It turns out that nothing with an even impact frame clashes if you buffer the inputs properly, indicating that RE K is not an even number on block. I did 10 clash tests, setting 2P Geralt to do a recording in which he gets RE K blocked then does the move on the right in the parentheses, while 1P Geralt buffers the move on the left:
At least -11: i24 beats i14 (4K vs. BB)
At least -13: i24 beats i12 (4K vs. 2A)
At least -13: i30 beats i18 (66BB vs. 6B)
Less than -14: i26 loses to i12 (1A, 1B vs. 2A)
Less than -14: i30 loses to i16 (66BB vs. 3A, 6A)
Less than -14: i36 loses to i22 (A+B vs. 4B, 4A)
Less than -16: i32 loses to i16 (6[K] vs. 3A)
Scuffle also agrees that RE K is -13 on block (for what that’s worth).
The only explanation for this behavior is that RE K is -13 on block. This isn't all that weird. It’s possible that RE K is “actually” -14 on block, but because of how RE works, it only hits at tip range, where it’s 1F safer. (There are lots of moves that are 1F off their normal values at tip range; Groh’s BB is i15 at tip but i14 elsewhere.) What is weird is that Azwel’s sword CE punishes it but not -12 moves.
I tried some additional tests to verify if Azwel’s CE was i13, but couldn’t find a definitive answer. It’s invincible from F12 onward:
F11: Loses to i17 (Inferno 6K) at -6 (blocked AA)
F12: Beats i18 (Inferno 2A) at -6 (blocked AA)
… which means there’s no reason to expect it to clash like normal moves do. I tried testing to see if it clashed with other CEs, but this didn’t go anywhere — Grøh’s i16 CE beats Azwel’s allegedly i14 sword CE when Grøh is at -2 (Grøh lands B then does CE).
So: Azwel’s sword CE must be i13. If anyone can prove this wrong that’d be great, because I hate anomalies. But it seems to be the case.
Some video evidence (I didn’t record the clash tests because it’d take forever to edit them together):
Azwel CE can’t punish 1AA, can punish RE K; 6B can’t punish RE K.
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Can someone explain to me what happen to this GI on RE's counter?
Edited: Ops.. I found the answer. It is Voldo's RE-4 cancel.
Edited: Ops.. I found the answer. It is Voldo's RE-4 cancel.
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weshookhands
[13] Hero
How in the hell is Ivy's aGI CE not tech-jumpable? Visually, it is a clear horizontal, but connects even if the opponent is miles high above her, like a hitbox wall -_____- really frustrating... maybe someone using twitter could point this to Okubo?
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