Soul Calibur should've had a revolving cast of characters

subsmoke

[10] Knight
I'm playing Mortal Kombat right now and one of the things I feel that series does right is the roster of fighters has always been a revolving door ever since the 2nd game. Even fan favorites like Goro or Noob Saibot take a break once in a while so they don't get stale and common characters like Reptile have their appearance and attacks changed from game to game. Sub Zero and Scorpion are the only ones who are pretty much guaranteed to be in every release.

Now compare that to Soul Calibur where the roster after Soul Edge has been mostly the same with only a few minor changes up until SCV. I feel like PS has dug themselves into a hole because if they keep everything the same like it has been then people will complain the series is stale but on the other hand if they make a major roster change like they did in V fans complain about their favorite characters getting dropped. Had they been revolving popular characters in and out since the beginning they wouldn't have this problem now. Thoughts?
 

Malice

Super Moderator
You can't please irrational people. Even with the massive roster that TTT2 has, people still complain about shit.

I just want a new game. I can worry about the roster once we get to that point.
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
I wish they would have stuck to the SC2 arcade philosophy. One true character per weapon, everyone else can just be a skin. Maybe just give skins their own idle poses, taunts, win animations. That way they could have kept the roster streamlined even if they needed to replace a character, while pleasing the people who fall in love with specific characters. People who want giant movelists are happy, and people who don't want to learn 40+ characters worth of giant movelists are happy.

It would be great to have roster like (the names in parentheses are skins):
  • Mitsurugi (Arthur)
  • Taki (Natsu, Toki, Kunimitsu)
  • Yoshitmitsu
  • Kilik (Seong Mina, Xiba)
  • Xianghua (Leixia)
  • Maxi (Li Long)
  • Yun-Seong (Hwang)
  • Talim
  • Setsuka (Alpha Patroklos)
  • Devil Mishima (Heihachi, Jin)
  • Nightmare (Siegfried, Durer)
  • Sophitia (Cassandra, Pyrrha...damn, there's too many of the sisters)
  • Cervantes
  • Ivy
  • Aeon
  • Raphael
  • Tira
  • Hilde
  • Dampierre [add some of Ezio's moves]
  • Voldo
  • Astaroth (Rock, Bangoo)
  • Zasalamel (Abyss)
  • Algol
  • Viola
  • ZWEI [add some of Spawn's moves]
  • Charade (Edge Master, Inferno, Olcadan)

25 very unique playstyles, 1 mimic, and a shit ton of skins to keep casuals happy. Yay.
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
Yeah, because evolving movelists is only possible when you have a bunch of characters that fit within the same archetype.
 

FluffyQuack

[14] Master
I don't see why sharing weapons has to mean less unique movesets. I'd rather have another sword user than someone with magical floating balls. I like that Soul Calibur has usually dealt with movesets which are based on real martial arts.
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
I don't see why sharing weapons has to mean less unique movesets. I'd rather have another sword user than someone with magical floating balls. I like that Soul Calibur has usually dealt with movesets which are based on real martial arts.
It doesn't mean anything, but characters who share weapons have the same range, typically are around the same speed and power and one of them usually ends up being the inferior version of the concept (Kilik/Mina, Astaroth/Rock, Assassin/Yun, Amy/Raphael). I'd rather they moved on to unique ideas rather than splitting the gameplay concept for a character down the middle and struggling to come up with ways to fill them out. It took Project Soul three games to finally make the Siegfried and Nightmare split worthwhile. Raphael took the same number games to recover from his losses to the Amy split and he's still not what he once was. In the case of Mina and Rock, they've either been clones with few differences or terrible characters when PS tried to give them enough unique attributes to stand on their own.

I took off the nostalgia glasses for SC2 a long time ago, but I did like the bigger movelists. In the case of Nightmare, some people were able to use a lot of the stance roulette and moves and play a Siegfried game and be successful. Others played the straight forward, 5 optimal move game and found success that way. Players had more choice in how to play their characters. Project Soul could evolve the movelists in each game while giving that style access to all it's best options, and no matter which character a person plays within that style they don't get the shaft.

New weapons and real weapons aren't mutually exclusive concepts, either (although as soon as Ivy showed up that went out the window anyways). Off the top of my head:
  • Mongolian Archer with back rolls for evasion. Flame arrows and a small buckler shield for protection.
401497714.jpg
  • Zulu warrior with throwable/retrievable Spears and Shield, capoeira style kicks and flips.
tumblr_lr6rar9LER1qg5qp4o1_400.jpg

  • An Ayutthaya/Thai soldier that fits into the mobile grappler archetype with all sorts of Tony Jaa goodness.
hVCmLg941647-02.jpg

These are just a couple of examples of where I'd rather PS go instead of Alexandra #5.
 

FluffyQuack

[14] Master
New weapons and real weapons aren't mutually exclusive concepts, either (although as soon as Ivy showed up that went out the window anyways). Off the top of my head:
  • Mongolian Archer with back rolls for evasion. Flame arrows and a small buckler shield for protection.
401497714.jpg
  • Zulu warrior with throwable/retrievable Spears and Shield, capoeira style kicks and flips.
tumblr_lr6rar9LER1qg5qp4o1_400.jpg

  • An Ayutthaya/Thai soldier that fits into the mobile grappler archetype with all sorts of Tony Jaa goodness.
hVCmLg941647-02.jpg

These are just a couple of examples of where I'd rather PS go instead of Alexandra #5.
I think those would be neat weapon styles, but I'm not convinced Namco would be as creative. Looking at SC5 where they moved towards you talked about (fewer characters sharing weapon styles), the all new weapon styles are a magical floating ball and a were wolf. The other new movesets either re-used weapons (Patroklos, Pyrrha) or wasn't Namco's design (Ezio).
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
I was talking in hypotheticals, like the OP talked about. I'm fine with Viola's design (although making her Romani would have been preferable) and I've gone on record stating that ZWEI would have been received better if he was an Arabic character with a djinn/genie and a scimitar.

As for what Namco is likely to actually do, I don't even want to get into their vision for the series after trying Lost Swords. I'm waiting for E3 and Unbreakable Soul but I wouldn't be shocked to find out it was a mobile game and the future of the series is decidedly uninspired and non-competitive.
 

jtdam09

[13] Hero
You can't please irrational people. Even with the massive roster that TTT2 has, people still complain about shit.

I just want a new game. I can worry about the roster once we get to that point.
My goodness, it was horrible. Fans wanted everyone and their best friends in TTT2. They got that, and managed to complain about something else instead.
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
Why would Amy suddenly change heritage out of nowhere? Plus, Kreuzgriff was a new, unique weapon concept that got muddled up by the introduction of E.I.N., where Z.W.E.I. is from wouldn't have changed a thing. Having a scimitar wouldn't have suited the fighting style, either.

Let's not turn this into "Character Roster is culturally uneven 2.0", we all remember how that thread went.
Fuck are you talking about? Viola could have just been a new person and the Romani used crystal balls. A sword fighter accompanied by a half bodied spirit to help him fight is a recurring staple of Arabic storytelling. But I guess a completely ambiguous leather daddy makes more sense for a story taking place in the early 17th century. And you can accept a regular arming sword with long handles, but a scimitar having long handles wouldn't work? What's so unique about ZWEI's style and Kreuzgriff without EIN? The fact that he holds it in different ways? I guess that's unique visually, but how is that remarkable functionally from a gameplay perspective. He's a guy with a short range sword that's kinda slow. He needs EIN be be unique.

Try not to get all wound up whenever someone suggests a person with brown skin would make sense being in the series, especially when they would have made some poorly received characters (and in ZWEI's case, particularly poorly designed) fit in better.
 

Kai_lombax

[13] Hero
The only way to please everyone would be to keep every cast member ever but then the roster would be huge and people would complain so I guess you can't please everyone.

Though I suppose it worked somewhat for TTT2.

You have a point. It can be hard to handle a large roster of characters but I give Tekken the benefit of the doubt since they make it work. I mean, Tekken 6 had one of the largest rosters I have ever seen. Mortal Kombat Armageddon would be another but yeah, I have to give them props since they make it work.
 

Kai_lombax

[13] Hero
Why would Amy suddenly change heritage out of nowhere? Plus, Kreuzgriff was a new, unique weapon concept that got muddled up by the introduction of E.I.N., where Z.W.E.I. is from wouldn't have changed a thing. Having a scimitar wouldn't have suited the fighting style, either.

Let's not turn this into "Character Roster is culturally uneven 2.0", we all remember how that thread went.
As interesting as it would have been if they explained how Amy changed, as I think about it; I think it would have been better if Viola was her own character. I like that they brought in a Gypsy-like character and Viola, while not having a sword, fits in just fine. Yeah, she has her flaws gameplay-wise but you have to admit, it's pretty interesting even if she isn't the first to use a crystal ball weapon.
 

CaptainHook

[10] Knight
I'm kinda in the school of thought that says you should have one style per weapon type. For the last 3 games I've been wanting Sieg and NM to merge back together into one like SC2. Yes, they are different, but then again, not 'really'

They occupy the same range, have virtually the same speed, both have almost the same match-up odds, are almost identically unsafe. I could go on, but NM is probably the better of the 2 objectively.

Same can be said for Pat/Pyrra/Omega. Sure, a few differences here and there but they essentially all fill the same niche of strengths and weaknesses. They even all share 236B input as one of their main punishers. It seems that regular Pyrra might be the best of the 3.

Raphael would have been a lot better had they given him some of Amy's best stuff, but instead we got probably the worst Raphael ever in the history of SC.

Same thing with Maxi/Li Long, which they actually learned from (strange they don't do the same thing with Alexandra's)

But as far as a know, no SC has ever done one style per weapon
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
I'm kinda in the school of thought that says you should have one style per weapon type. For the last 3 games I've been wanting Sieg and NM to merge back together into one like SC2. Yes, they are different, but then again, not 'really'

They occupy the same range, have virtually the same speed, both have almost the same match-up odds, are almost identically unsafe. I could go on, but NM is probably the better of the 2 objectively.
This is what I'm saying.

But as far as a know, no SC has ever done one style per weapon
Soulcalibur II's arcade version didn't have Sophitia, Mina, Lizardman, Berzerker, or Assassin. Other than the very slight similarities of Mitsurugi and Yoshimitsu, there were no style repeats. Everyone had their own very unique style of play.
 

DevilsDisguise

[13] Hero
What's so unique about ZWEI's style and Kreuzgriff without EIN? The fact that he holds it in different ways? I guess that's unique visually, but how is that remarkable functionally from a gameplay perspective..
It would be a straight long sword without a shield, that in itself was unique before EIN made it entirely something barely comprehensible. All it needed to be was just a long dagger-shaped sword. Nothing about EIN was needed at all.

He's a guy with a short range sword that's kinda slow. He needs EIN be be unique.
No he didn't. EIN didnt make him unique, something unique had to be likable in some seamless way. It was more of a superficial compensation for his lack of reach. Instead of letting his short range be the standard drawback all characters had somewhere or another; he has to have an aesthetic reason for it. C'mon.. Maybe we should give an Ein to Talim and Taki since their weapons have really short reach; forget about what they could do with their weapons.
 
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Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
It would be a straight long sword without a shield, that in itself was unique before EIN made it entirely something barely comprehensible. All it needed to be was just a long dagger-shaped sword. Nothing about EIN was needed at all.


No he didn't. EIN didnt make him unique, something unique had to be likable in some seamless way. It was more of a superficial compensation for his lack of reach. Instead of letting his short range be the standard drawback all characters had somewhere or another; he has to have an aesthetic reason for it. C'mon.. Maybe we should give an Ein to Talim and Taki since their weapons have really short reach; forget about what they could do with their weapons.
LOL, I specifically asked you about gameplay instead of aesthetics and you replied back with a bunch of shit about aesthetics. I was going to talk about how since we already have short ranged characters in a variety of roles, EIN's inclusion as an assist character to supplement ZWEI's weaknesses is what makes them a unique and worthwhile addition from a gameplay perspective...but then I saw your signature and it all made sense. Carry on.
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
Do you know the difference between function and aesthetics? If so, please explain how ZWEI without EIN would make for a unique gameplay experience that's different from the other short ranged characters.
You didn't answer my question.
I'll take the fact that you think your question was germane to a discussion about function instead of aesthetics as a no.
 
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