Soul Calibur V Raphael - Nerfs? Buffs? Change Of Style?

[WARUI_NE]

Raph in sc3 had a +5 on hit bb yo

 

[WuHT]

Im still kinda annoyed that Raph stands still and doesn't shift back and forth. That's one of the main idiosyncrasies that made him "the great Raphael". I don't feel the same excitement and pride when I play as him now.

Yeah yunsung used to stand rigid in neutral and now does the boxing-hop that maxi does. You can tell raphael's guard animation hasn't changed as he slightly pivots back and forth while guarding, but stands rigid if no commands are inputted.

Raph in sc3 had a +5 on hit bb yo

His BB may be - on hit (to justify the threat of a the 3rd hit of the string), but on any other character it'll be all + on hit, kinda like how amy's 6B, 6BB, and 6BBB were all + even though they had followups AND stance entries.

 

[WARUI_NE]

Omg!!! That was awesome. Why did they ever think of making BB -2 on hit??? By the way, how do you know the frame data for SC games previous to SC4?? I can't seem to find them. Thanks a lot.

it used to track %100 so the -2 on hit was justified
+5 seems like a lot now but in sc3 most BBs were +4 because everything was faster

I used to have a link to all sc3 framedata but i lost it when I upgraded to windows 7

 

[WuHT]

I also want to bring up the topic on Raph moves that are 0 on hit in SC4. What's the point of having neutral hits?? Obviously, + on hit is better. After a 0 on hit, you would have to use a faster move to beat out your opponents next move.

Neutral hits create some ambiguity. Keep in mind your opponent too, as - frames for amy is totally different than - frames with rock.

You're asking why the SC4 balance team decided on 0 for raph instead of + frames ? There's probably better things to complain about than raph's single B's frames lol. However, you should look forward (to SC5) instead of dwelling in the past.

 

[optymuss]

Yea raphs 2B is probably one of the best 2Bs in the game the only balance to it is its 0 on NH and Ch

 

[Sam]

vampires bites, right?
so for raphael We Can put Something like this, could be a throw move! : D

 

[WARUI_NE]

we already have this thread http://8wayrun.com/threads/soul-cal...uffs-change-of-style.6472/page-10#post-326829

 

[Black_Dog]

After watching the video posted by Kayane, it appears preparation lacks a reliable mid (ie safe and relatively fast), prep K is unsafe and the second hit of prep kBE is easily TCed, leaving Raph open for a launcher. Kayane dodged it every time and punished.

 

[Mandritti]

Pirouette kick looks totally out of place in prep in the first place*, and I'm happy enough just for its hitbox. I feel spoiled. prep kBE just looks nonsensical. Had to say it. Regarding prep viability, again, that non-prep is an option of every prep transition. I believe with this game's speed it s more likely to win those crucial frames or mindtrick the blocked return attack.
[/rant]
wait [rant]
Still don't get why 66B guard breaks and not others he might have. 22B -> "prep A" looks cool in one way, but also feels out of order. I hope 22B gives an alternative option if I don't want to push away.
I am waiting for his jump kick; that's his real signature move. When 4B was introduced I thought it replaced "roundhouse kick". RHK should slow-knd-stun on NH, indeed.
[/rant]

And now I'd like to say something about Raphael playstyle. Then a command switch possibility that may be loved.

Raphael and prep - Throughout the (SCIII posterior) ages​

​

Raphael can be played by looking at the possible NH or CH payoff of some prep transition into a prep combo. These options can then be modulated on the fly on wrong guess, to back out or possibly gain profit if you strongly anticipate the move after. But how strong is this, really? Is it proved that looking for the prep combo is best the most menacing way to wield him?​

​

Toward a balanced style: rapiere des Sorel​

​

Raphael now has various moves that are good themselves, in their own right. They're worthwhile to play their own mixup. His prep suite are a capability that makes a certain set of interrupt-flavoured, range-speedy moves, have further slants in reward to his favour that are extreme if seen as poke-like. If 6BB is not "a lightweight prep entry on hit or block" but rather "a fast CH confirmable that commits you to literally nothing", it goes from bread to true annoyance.​

Pokes, already have vanishing risk, but an opponent has to make the choice, hit or block, how to challenge a preppable move, and prep has capable combos. That is what the suite is to me, with this new set of abilities and stun. It still is a narrow range of answers, but he always controls how the exchange ends.​

Yet I don't expect viewing them as 'pokes' will be bought so easily.​

​

What is prep? Really?​

​

A prep string is... what is it about a prep string , that only prep allows, but in terms of the things all characters do? It's a long pseudoframetrap of some sort. Something about his Prep set, being moves that hurt, but being able to enter them off of moves that are friendly to more purposes than the prep moves alone could viably be entered from, is for some reason something I want to articulate or see articulated. And viewed another way, he's just attacking, getting advantage, and trying out bulkier moves he has set up.​

Why is Raph his own character, mechanically?​

***
Idea:
4B+K becomes a version of 33*99B, chosen to one side and with an actual tech step. BAM. Hated move gone, command space used, and 8wr input for a vertical freed up. It might even introduce a tracking feature.
I do like Cantarella Needle but this Raph is becoming practical again - that's what makes it odd to see 44A still as it is. Maybe left and right 2*8b+k could keep the step of Death Guise to either side; but I somehow like the 4B+K single version.

*he leads with his left foot , but kicks with it Prep k, standing on his right, inside of ~14 frames. How?

 

[WuHT]

. Had to say it. Regarding prep viability, again, that non-prep is an option of every prep transition.

Yep, and imo non-prep will probably answer a lot of short range stuffs. The problem is that, for example, 3B into step is not fast enough to beat a sieg 3B if blocked. So far I have yet to see an answer to a i16-19 TCing mid which a LOT of 3Bs in the game are (for some stupid reason).

 

[Azure]

Yeah yunsung used to stand rigid in neutral and now does the boxing-hop that maxi does. You can tell raphael's guard animation hasn't changed as he slightly pivots back and forth while guarding, but stands rigid if no commands are inputted.




His BB may be - on hit (to justify the threat of a the 3rd hit of the string), but on any other character it'll be all + on hit, kinda like how amy's 6B, 6BB, and 6BBB were all + even though they had followups AND stance entries.

remember the days (sc2) where triple botta tempo could enter prep IV, prep II, or prep III. memories :)

I've just played SCIII Raphael and Im alreadly missing him. I still don't understand why they slowed him down in SCIV and took away so much from his movelist (Im blaming Amy lol). Is it just me, or were more of his moves much safer on block back then? After experiments, BB in SCIII didn't seem to be negative on hit. His movements flowed much better back then but in SCIV, his movements were languid, rigid, and didn't suit the style of fencing very well. They really messed him up. He's never been as fun to use as he was in SCII and SCIII. Well, he is a vampire now, so that justifies some changes I guess haha. At least he's faster in SCV :). If they make Raphael a hybrid between SCII and SCIII, Im more than happy.

Im still kinda annoyed that Raph stands still and doesn't shift back and forth. That's one of the main idiosyncrasies that made him "the great Raphael". I don't feel the same excitement and pride when I play as him now.

Understand what you mean. Man oh man where's the flair.

Just a question to the community about Raphael, did anyone think raph's old prep sidestep was useful and if so was it more useful than SE?

 

[WARUI_NE]

Sea is great imo

 

[WuHT]

the attacks out of SEA was way better than prepII from the prep sidestep, and this is espeically interesting considering that SC2's power levels were generally >>> SC4.

Interesting to see as SC5's SE attacks are going to be better than SC4's SEA, which makes me slightly worried that they mistakeningly nerf Raph's other moves to compensate (and to encourage him from trying to go into SE from prep.

I don't want to see Raph de-evolve to a guy who specializes in holding guard and punishing, as it seems that short range characters shouldn't have too much difficulty closing in on him.

 

[Azure]

How about as a defensive stance? Which is preferred?

I like the fact that Raphael has the defensive 214 (at least I think this was mentioned as the input) GI out of preparation now that is a plus?

 

[WuHT]

How about as a defensive stance? Which is preferred?

I like the fact that Raphael has the defensive 214 (at least I think this was mentioned as the input) GI out of preparation now that is a plus?

Defensively, you have to keep in mind the attack out of the stance really affects how we value it. If prep twirl had crazy attacks (tracking, huge NH combos, etc) then its a no brainer.

Prep 214 now backsteps, looks like it may crouch highs, and aGIs' mids so it does look pretty beastly. In fact, the threat of SE should be so great that no one should throw highs to you so you could beat most short range pokes by the backstep alone. The only problem is that the best attack out of it is like prepAB for 25ish damage, and maybe nothing is guaranteed if they super crouch low cuz you'll whiff with even prep K.

I agree that Raph shouldn't be concentrated in guarding and punishing. All right since at least two people favor SE rather than Sidestep, I'll be fine with SE then (quick step is in their already).

Earlier Wuht, you mentioned you don't feel Raph should be an air juggler character. Well in SC2 and SC3, Raph had so many launchers (even 236A+B launched on CH and could RO), and I had fun using K, 33KB, AA, and other moves to hit them while in the air. Sometimes, I could get more than 8o damage by doing so. I miss those days. I can always play those old games but still...there's new Raph now. The launching and air hits were one of Raph's strengths, and they have taken it away from him. Now Raph has to rely on stun combos for good damage

I agree that 80 damage does sound good on Raph, but if he could get the same combo damage in a stun type combo, i believe choosing between stun or air combo is strictly aesthetic. His SC2 3B was a really good move (hit grounded too) but i'm saying if Raph is the designated "no-air combo" character I wouldn't be upset or anything. Since BE and CE is going to be involved he's always going to have a high damage air launcher combo provided he has meter.

I have a new idea now. Why not remove 44B (Prep A+B from neutral)?? It's slow, linear, retreating, and powerful, but not extremely useful. SCIII Prep B+K is the substitute for Prep A+B from neutral.

The boys from NEC have felt that his current 44B is pretty evasive and definitely faster than his SC4 44B. Just something i'm throwing out there to win you over to the new 44B.

Just move 66B back to 44B and make 66B his SC3 3B. His current 3B can stay because like it in this manner. At least let Raph have another launcher back.

his SC3 33B >>>> 3B, as 3B in sc3 didnt' even guarantee anything iirc.

By the way you said there's 66K+B. What move is that?? And I still don't understand why 2A+B is gone. Is 2A+B a different move now or does it do nothing???

SC5 66B+K = SC4 11B = SC2 236A+B if i'm reading the reports correctly. 2A+B may be gone or just not implemented in this build.

 

[Azure]

I'm not going to lie, what i valued about Raphael in his first two games was his ability to move in and out and all around (technically he still can but with less style and Raphael flair), he was a very mobile fencer. but he does look really beastly in in terms of power in soul calibur 5. SEB was beastly in SCIV but it just took to long to get into. SEB moves out of the first phase of the first phase of SE looks exceptional in SCV, but prep looks like it could benefit from some work. So far the only danger looks like it could be the 214 aGi from it. Unless there are a different set of moves out of the back step from it. It looks like if you wait, it goes back into preparation. But I don't know if it is possible to do moves during his aGi back step. Sidesteps with SE would be the shiz tho bruh. Because SE alone just looks like it's not enough he seems so trapped in one place. Oh yea, shout out to VE, where you at bruh?!

 

[crow_winters]

Just as a fun addenumn/trivia, all Preps in SC2 could cancel into BT attacks if the enemy was in a certain orientation (I believe to Raph's right?) which was actually pretty useful due to the speed/length of movement during Prep's + the large steps that were in SC2. This made a pretty silly/strong option select between Prep I A (pardon me if i get the numeral wrong- it's been a long time since SC2, haha. The current VE A) and BT 2A, making step a somewhat difficult option for the enemy. BT 2A gave huuuuuge + frames on hit and was a low in sc2.

 

[Azure]

You know what, they kept his beastly 2A. Love that move, keeps the crazies away

 

[WuHT]

Btw, his 2A in SC4 and SC5 is great, but what are your opinions on his SC2 and SC3 2A?? It seemed to have more range than the current one, but I somehow like his new one better even though its a short range low. And why has Raph's 2A always been a special low rather than a low?? It can be blocked from standing!

He has a generic 2A, which for the majority of the cast is a special low, and it has been a special low for all the games. Nightmare, astaroth.. etc the super slow ones are true lows but don't have the interrupting power (and CRAZY +8 frames on CH) that the standard 2As offer (like maxi, cass.. etc)

And what do you guys think of his Prep BBB? It's the same as 6BBB. Why did they take away Prep BBB:B?? Strangely that move was weak when guaranteed but strong when not. I actually prefer plain Prep B (same as 236B). I hope the third hit of Prep BBB and 6BBB on CH give advantage on block.

The thing about having 3 hits from prep is the threat of re-entry vs the opponent losing their advantage because they're holding guard waiting for it. However, this is a very small buff because the frames arn't scary enough (and the damage isn't high enough) to punish the opponent for guessing wrong. One thing that i'll state is that prepBBB, is REALLY difficult to step between the 2nd and 3rd hit for some characters (and impossible for the others). While Sc2 prep B was long range and mid, it was not a NH on his most basic entry (being 66(B)), so you're losing out on guaranteed damage.

One more question. Why do a lot of people say Raph's frames suck?? I mean he has moves that have advantage on hit, some that stun, a few that launch and or KND. I understand he has moves that are negative on hit but his frames on block aren't that bad. Yeah there are many moves that are unsafe, some barely safe, and some that are safe. But other characters have moves that are in the -20s on block!!

Raph's frames not terrible, but he doesn't have silver-bullet super moves that are TC, mid, launcher, safe and tracks to one side like some of the other members of the cast. However, raph's crumminess is the whiff frames, and he is likely the character to whiff his moves the most. Frames on block are irrelevant (and there is no quantum to judge frames on whiff).

Frames in general are more strong in SC5 though, so its going to be improper to make such a comparison

 

[Azure]

Btw, his 2A in SC4 and SC5 is great, but what are your opinions on his SC2 and SC3 2A?? It seemed to have more range than the current one, but I somehow like his new one better even though its a short range low. And why has Raph's 2A always been a special low rather than a low?? It can be blocked from standing!

And what do you guys think of his Prep BBB? It's the same as 6BBB. Why did they take away Prep BBB:B?? Strangely that move was weak when guaranteed but strong when not. I actually prefer plain Prep B (same as 236B). I hope the third hit of Prep BBB and 6BBB on CH give advantage on block.

One more question. Why do a lot of people say Raph's frames suck?? I mean he has moves that have advantage on hit, some that stun, a few that launch and or KND. I understand he has moves that are negative on hit but his frames on block aren't that bad. Yeah there are many moves that are unsafe, some barely safe, and some that are safe. But other characters have moves that are in the -20s on block!!

i really didnt like the 2A in those games, even if they were quick that left you at an awkward looking angle

I was thinking about what if Raphael had something like that SCIV Amy's step transition move. It'd tech crouch or 6BB214. It be kewl if he had moves that transition into steps and not preparation. In 2 66K214 was his only transition into retreat step. It be interesting if the developers implemented transitions into step stances rather than preparation as well. It'd have to be extra flashy because it's Raphael of course.