WuHT
Premium Moderator
so step G should be the first to go. You shouldnt' be able to cancel a step with a guard
Soul Calibur V Raphael - Nerfs? Buffs? Change Of Style?
- Thread starter ShenRii
- Start date
SBA
TFNA
make bb + on hit
giv him some type of tool to stop step midrange
giv him a close knockdown low
^^^^^^
im happy
giv him some type of tool to stop step midrange
giv him a close knockdown low
^^^^^^
im happy
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
his AA has good range. 22AA is mid range anti step. 3A covers one side i think, but on at least +2-3 adv it could kill most chars step. he needs a good mid level antistep.
he does need a knockdown low. 1k would work nice for it.
BB like BD has +frames on hit. +1 or 2 i think. on CH too. safe from block punish
he does need a knockdown low. 1k would work nice for it.
BB like BD has +frames on hit. +1 or 2 i think. on CH too. safe from block punish
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
The knockdown low doesnt sound like raphael though imo. his lows are all pokes
WuHT
Premium Moderator
If raph's theme is to be weak to step (which i'm fine with, to a certain degree) then its highly unlikely he'll get a mid anti-step with the following properties, so don't hold your breath, you'll at probably get 2 of the 5.
1. Decent speed
2. decent adv. on hit
3.regular raph's range
4.reliability in covering anti step
5.decent damage.
At AA range though, current raph's only anti steps basically are i21+, deal mediocre damage, has exceptions to tracking, but at least are + on hit, so it is unlikely they'll be much improved.
If only 2B+K and 8B+K did not totally fail at what they were designed to do, because the risk reward ratio is extremely risky for good rewards. 2_8B+K effectively work at 2A/4K/6A range, because they whiff outside of grab range, which makes them useless.
I'd trade the NH crumple stun on them just so I could have them 100% their corresponding side (not even directly in front of me).. but that's as far as i'm willing lol.
I mean jeezes its like they're afraid raph might actually become only mid tier so they got to squash that.
---
Does anyone think his SC2 3B, BB, 6AAB and FC3AAB animations will return ? what about his 236AB ? 214B ? 1BAB ? 4A+B ?
I for one do not want the return of his SC2 BB, because then you'd have an algol situation where you have his clear-cut best spammable move and thats not what raph (and sc5) should be about : ie finding the top 5 moves to spam over to victory. A mid tracking tool shouldn't be that brain dead for any character, and especially raph should have some risk.
I didn't like his 3 hit canned strings because they didn't even connect on CH, and iirc was crouchable on block, but would be cool if they offered transitions to stances.
1. Decent speed
2. decent adv. on hit
3.regular raph's range
4.reliability in covering anti step
5.decent damage.
At AA range though, current raph's only anti steps basically are i21+, deal mediocre damage, has exceptions to tracking, but at least are + on hit, so it is unlikely they'll be much improved.
If only 2B+K and 8B+K did not totally fail at what they were designed to do, because the risk reward ratio is extremely risky for good rewards. 2_8B+K effectively work at 2A/4K/6A range, because they whiff outside of grab range, which makes them useless.
I'd trade the NH crumple stun on them just so I could have them 100% their corresponding side (not even directly in front of me).. but that's as far as i'm willing lol.
I mean jeezes its like they're afraid raph might actually become only mid tier so they got to squash that.
---
Does anyone think his SC2 3B, BB, 6AAB and FC3AAB animations will return ? what about his 236AB ? 214B ? 1BAB ? 4A+B ?
I for one do not want the return of his SC2 BB, because then you'd have an algol situation where you have his clear-cut best spammable move and thats not what raph (and sc5) should be about : ie finding the top 5 moves to spam over to victory. A mid tracking tool shouldn't be that brain dead for any character, and especially raph should have some risk.
I didn't like his 3 hit canned strings because they didn't even connect on CH, and iirc was crouchable on block, but would be cool if they offered transitions to stances.
franman
[13] Hero
I wanted to add something:
-Give him back the 236 animation and his ol' SC2 214 animation.
-Give him back the 236 animation and his ol' SC2 214 animation.
darkfender
[10] Knight
No way both AA than 22AA aside being extremely slow (and 22AA even risky cause he has an high/low mixup -.- lol) can be stepped on the first hit on raph weak side leaving him open for punish...
3A: an unsafe (if not at tip) i20 mid ...leaves raph still open to the step G game..he need an i14 mid ranged left tracker.....otherwise there is no game for raph...
Just attack with something -2 to -8 on block and step.....wait the whiff or block and repeat forever.....
That is stupid way to play but it works if u can even step+TC raph is dead....for ex no wonder kilik WSB is so powerful against raph
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
22A should be
1) A Mid on the first hit, but sketchy tracking. 22AA is still a blockstring
2) 2 frames faster, at i21, + full tracking while outside a certain range
1 or 2. Pretty awesome to have both but my interest is just the principle of the design. A stramazone is a real technique, and Raph should have a useable one. It just ticks me off so much that this is a slow high and -still- doesn't effectively sweep out horizontal space. (whaddya bet that having both plus 22B-as-is would make Raph GDLK at keepaway? :p)
The faster high as #2 would remind of sc2 or 3, but I think the direction it should go is a mid.
I think whether SC2 3B or 'moves like that' come back will be tied to where the Fluff for Raph's story goes. Don't want to get into too much, but, SCiv, Raph is very languid in his motions, and since the end of his "desperate" times in SC2, he hasn't had wild movements in his attacks. He has flourishes, and his one powerful 11B, but he does what he has to do, no more. It's a tenet of fencing, but Raph's style isn't 100% fencing (my guess:88% fencing, 3% superhuman feat, 9% giant prick 50% superhuman feat, 50% fencing, 100% giant prick). But as was brought up, maybe it's time for pretty boy with a castle (a castle) to become desperate again.
I think we see those moves if something bad happens to Raph. And if we see those moves, something bad happens to Raph.
1) A Mid on the first hit, but sketchy tracking. 22AA is still a blockstring
2) 2 frames faster, at i21, + full tracking while outside a certain range
1 or 2. Pretty awesome to have both but my interest is just the principle of the design. A stramazone is a real technique, and Raph should have a useable one. It just ticks me off so much that this is a slow high and -still- doesn't effectively sweep out horizontal space. (whaddya bet that having both plus 22B-as-is would make Raph GDLK at keepaway? :p)
The faster high as #2 would remind of sc2 or 3, but I think the direction it should go is a mid.
I think whether SC2 3B or 'moves like that' come back will be tied to where the Fluff for Raph's story goes. Don't want to get into too much, but, SCiv, Raph is very languid in his motions, and since the end of his "desperate" times in SC2, he hasn't had wild movements in his attacks. He has flourishes, and his one powerful 11B, but he does what he has to do, no more. It's a tenet of fencing, but Raph's style isn't 100% fencing (my guess:
I think we see those moves if something bad happens to Raph. And if we see those moves, something bad happens to Raph.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
22A/A is very slow for anti step. But at tip range its very good against most chars. If 22A is blocked. we all know that the second A could be punished with a good TC or just crouching, but if you just input 22A which is -14 on block, and assuming they block 22A and attempt to punish it by ducking or using a TC move , just about all punishers would fail due to spacing or the delay of actually timing the TC move for the second high. the only moves that I know that can punish 22A at tip are Soph 236 B and Sets 214 3aB. Soph 236 can barely fit for the window of the second high, and im sure the soph player would use that small window to punish the second high with 236B. Soph 236B is i14, so it has a very slim window for punishing it.
3A kills step to raphs right. which is when the opponent steps left. If i recall this is raphs weak side. 3A is -13 on block, so raph could be punished by few AAs, 2As and 2Ks and Amy 6BB. On block 3A gives good knockback for spacing and on hit it gives minor spacing and a +3 Adv. If at tip raph get the spacing of a few inches in reality greater than is 6B. Sets AA cant reach due to tip range spacing on block. Most Raph players NEED spacing. so im sure that 3A would be used at its tip range. which is what you had previously said.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
whoops
If blocked* at tip range Raph gets* the spacing of a few inches greater(in reality) of his 6B range*
If blocked* at tip range Raph gets* the spacing of a few inches greater(in reality) of his 6B range*
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
imo, which doesnt really count.
The developers wanted raph to have a true Fencing style (according to the SC wiki on Raph). He is very linear for this, and if he had a safe mid level step kill it wouldnt be very balanced for Raph in general in my opinion.
BUT THIS IS MY OPINION
The developers wanted raph to have a true Fencing style (according to the SC wiki on Raph). He is very linear for this, and if he had a safe mid level step kill it wouldnt be very balanced for Raph in general in my opinion.
BUT THIS IS MY OPINION
darkfender
[10] Knight
the problem are raw frames...
As i said if your opponent attack with something and then step he has plenty of time to block AFTER the step...and can punish in case of whiff...
This because raph does not have almost any left tracking tool of 14-17 frames just out of throw range.
So you won't punish anything with a 3a of 20 frames; u'll just get blocked or stepped...its a game of chances where you have almost no reward but u have huge risks.
You are forced to try to counterstep...and if your opponent knows it won't be so easy....
Raph as is on the paper cannot work at all...his strength is still being considered mid/low tier and thus not studied as a matchup.
As i said if your opponent attack with something and then step he has plenty of time to block AFTER the step...and can punish in case of whiff...
This because raph does not have almost any left tracking tool of 14-17 frames just out of throw range.
So you won't punish anything with a 3a of 20 frames; u'll just get blocked or stepped...its a game of chances where you have almost no reward but u have huge risks.
You are forced to try to counterstep...and if your opponent knows it won't be so easy....
Raph as is on the paper cannot work at all...his strength is still being considered mid/low tier and thus not studied as a matchup.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
so "like a fencer" he should have weaker than average anti-8wr/step but he should have one of the best speed/reach combinations (probably does). He has a pretty mediocre backdash, so for a fencer that doesn't make sense (but buffing it would make his good matchups lop-sidedly good and won't do much for his bad matchups).
The way I see his anti-step moveset (not from stance) FOR SC5
1.i20+ long range NC horizontal poke thats high and safe due to spacing (a la 22A series)
2.~i30 short range mid horizontal NCC (44A series, we may see the return of 44AA, [a mid / low])
3. i14 regular 2A for up close anti stepping.
4.a "reliable" anti-step horizontal high at ~i20, but will be barely unsafe and will be - on hit (like 4A without the TS).
5.~i18 2_8B+K series as a side-specific anti-step mid poke (please make this useable)
6.a TCing short ranged anti-step (like his SEB K), hopefully combo-able on CH
7.w/e his 22K will be.
8.His ~i20 advancing anti-step being his 66A (hopefully it won't only track at the tip).
9. delayed tracking 33b? Would be a good answer to step-guarders (if stepG is kept).
He'll definately have a few barely useable, slowish, short ranged high horizontal that only tracks to one side just to give you "options".
---
Point 2:
Raph's lack of CH potential means that you'll see opponents attacking at "disadvantage" a lot because there isn't that much risk involved, since raph has only 1 quick CH combo (and even then its only 40 dmg), but has no reliable TS (only 4B/44B as counters) to beat quick vertical retaliations.
The way I see his anti-step moveset (not from stance) FOR SC5
1.i20+ long range NC horizontal poke thats high and safe due to spacing (a la 22A series)
2.~i30 short range mid horizontal NCC (44A series, we may see the return of 44AA, [a mid / low])
3. i14 regular 2A for up close anti stepping.
4.a "reliable" anti-step horizontal high at ~i20, but will be barely unsafe and will be - on hit (like 4A without the TS).
5.~i18 2_8B+K series as a side-specific anti-step mid poke (please make this useable)
6.a TCing short ranged anti-step (like his SEB K), hopefully combo-able on CH
7.w/e his 22K will be.
8.His ~i20 advancing anti-step being his 66A (hopefully it won't only track at the tip).
9. delayed tracking 33b? Would be a good answer to step-guarders (if stepG is kept).
He'll definately have a few barely useable, slowish, short ranged high horizontal that only tracks to one side just to give you "options".
---
Point 2:
Raph's lack of CH potential means that you'll see opponents attacking at "disadvantage" a lot because there isn't that much risk involved, since raph has only 1 quick CH combo (and even then its only 40 dmg), but has no reliable TS (only 4B/44B as counters) to beat quick vertical retaliations.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
4K kills step on his weak side. 3A kills off of disadv too
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
If 3A is blocked you get more spacing. I totally agree with over raw frames, but what im saying is that 3A is a good move on block and on killing step, but against a big disav plus the reactions of a good player it cant kill.
Overall i think its an okay move. thats all im saying
Overall i think its an okay move. thats all im saying
darkfender
[10] Knight
i m using this move a lot and actually does not ._.
Or i should say it miss sometimes @__@
WuHT
Premium Moderator
I hate to sidetrack the discussion regarding SC4 raph's anti-step here (no clue why its' going on in this thread), but seeing as 100% raph will be a stance transition character,I'd like to note that he'll likely have to ENTER stance to do any sort of respectable combo damage in SC5.
This comes with a risk in itself, as stances always provide less options (and generally poorer quality, more gimmicky choices) as opposed to neutral stance, but the reward is that raph would be able to do 2-3x damage than if he didn't stance.
However, the multiplier in SC5 should be diminished, because the strength of entering stance is simply a matter of perspective and in reality the reward for his pokes (no stance) are absurdly low.
The way I see it, currently, his "combo" starter pokes are basically 20 damage, (while completely safe), you can lose up to 40+ damage if you "didnt" commit to stance (while other characters can 3B, then react accordingly and always make the correct decision). For example: the only moves that raph has like this is 6A, 66K, 22K or 44K currently (which is fine by me) but imo they're not his core moves.
If you score 22B on CH, basically nothing is guaranteed. Same deal with scoring a CH/NH with 3B (they'll almost ALWAYS step/8wr so life is tough for raph). Getting 44AB on CH ? they can tech-roll back up by the time you're down with your animation. Scoring SEA B on CH ? Don't get me started on this one! Losing 2x extra combo damage will always come back to bite you. Its almost like a punishment for not committing to stance and playing safe (which all stance characters suffer from at various degrees).
In summary:
I pray that SC5 raph's combo starters (that did not go to stance) guarantee at least a stun on CH long enough for a 2B/1A/2K grounded hit. Its rather frustrating watching other characters have step-safe launchers that do MORE damage.
This comes with a risk in itself, as stances always provide less options (and generally poorer quality, more gimmicky choices) as opposed to neutral stance, but the reward is that raph would be able to do 2-3x damage than if he didn't stance.
However, the multiplier in SC5 should be diminished, because the strength of entering stance is simply a matter of perspective and in reality the reward for his pokes (no stance) are absurdly low.
The way I see it, currently, his "combo" starter pokes are basically 20 damage, (while completely safe), you can lose up to 40+ damage if you "didnt" commit to stance (while other characters can 3B, then react accordingly and always make the correct decision). For example: the only moves that raph has like this is 6A, 66K, 22K or 44K currently (which is fine by me) but imo they're not his core moves.
If you score 22B on CH, basically nothing is guaranteed. Same deal with scoring a CH/NH with 3B (they'll almost ALWAYS step/8wr so life is tough for raph). Getting 44AB on CH ? they can tech-roll back up by the time you're down with your animation. Scoring SEA B on CH ? Don't get me started on this one! Losing 2x extra combo damage will always come back to bite you. Its almost like a punishment for not committing to stance and playing safe (which all stance characters suffer from at various degrees).
In summary:
I pray that SC5 raph's combo starters (that did not go to stance) guarantee at least a stun on CH long enough for a 2B/1A/2K grounded hit. Its rather frustrating watching other characters have step-safe launchers that do MORE damage.
darkfender
[10] Knight
well but the strength of 3B is his frames...
i hope they will keep it i16 cause its a great punisher.
maybe i am wrong but raphael need more evasive moves that could turn into stances..
And he also need less risk for transitions on hit cause even when you enter prep on hit u find with a short combo with disadvantage on hit or risky transitions
And i'd add some stuns to his pokes on CH.
I mean a long range character like Kilik has 1B and various other pokes that turns into combos on CH...same for IVY.
Why raph don't matter how but ends up at frame disadvantage whatever he does >_>
And give him some decent wall combos for ex adding wallsplat to 33KB instead of 33K .-.
In any case BuffBuffBuff he deserves it seying like it've been treated on SC4 >.> with some near impossible matchups.
i hope they will keep it i16 cause its a great punisher.
maybe i am wrong but raphael need more evasive moves that could turn into stances..
And he also need less risk for transitions on hit cause even when you enter prep on hit u find with a short combo with disadvantage on hit or risky transitions
And i'd add some stuns to his pokes on CH.
I mean a long range character like Kilik has 1B and various other pokes that turns into combos on CH...same for IVY.
Why raph don't matter how but ends up at frame disadvantage whatever he does >_>
And give him some decent wall combos for ex adding wallsplat to 33KB instead of 33K .-.
In any case BuffBuffBuff he deserves it seying like it've been treated on SC4 >.> with some near impossible matchups.
Alstein
[09] Warrior
This isn't going to be a deep gameplay post- but I'd almost like a return to SC2 Raph, and get rid of the vampirism crap. I just don't like it.
Maybe give it to Amy instead to make her more interesting.
Maybe give it to Amy instead to make her more interesting.
darkfender
[10] Knight
Raph should sparkle XD