Soulcalibur VI DLC Discussion Thread

[Ukkesh]

I've been thinking about how Viola and Algol could make it into the game. Viola works without Algol, but Algol would have to be reworked if Viola is not in. Welp, at least I hope people enjoy these little theories.
In Regards to Viola's inclusion (warning: it involves a lot of Wild Mass Guessing!)

Spoiler: Viola

So, I was thinking a lot about Viola and Amy. Guess this is just a theory, but i Was thinking. Maybe Viola is not actually Viola or Amy. In the same way that Soul Edge apparently stores memories and fighting styles, and establishes a sort of Psychic Link. Is it possible that Viola is simply a memory and that the things she states about her origins are simply memories generated by the Orb. Another thing I was thinking about, It could be possible the orb is another sentient weapon? The Orb moves around on such in incredible level, it's easy to forget viola is "controlling it". If project soul wanted to do something to have Viola Appear earlier, You could probably note that she could be an immortal like zasalamel. It's already been established that she is an exceptionally powerful magic user. In the same way Zas is Immortal, and thus he can see the past, Viola seems to be able to see into the future? Viola's CE was a literal trap spell. As a foil to Zas she works well.

Random theory that will liely never happen: Viola is a construct of Quattor Orbis?!


It may seem a bit like a retcon, but Viola never had much going in the way of Backstory anyway. You could say that she is an outside figure who has tried to be hidden or something. It wouldn't surprise me if she were to craft a spell to go back in time to reverse events in SC, by preventing Sophitia's death thereby causing a huge chain reaction that reverses many things that will come to pass. By sophitia not dying, Pyrrha will likely not be taken by Tira, and Pyrrha likely would not be as scared and whiny as before. Pat wouldn't be a murderer who hates every malfested, and Pat likely wouldn't have taken up the sword and shield, and would ave either stuck with Iaido or not even begun to fight in the first place. Because of this, soul embrace would have never been formed, and Elysium would not have been unleashed on the world. Zwei would be alive (if he died) and Schwarzwind would not have given soul calibur to Pat, and maybe someone more worthy would have stopped nightmare, Thereby removing raph from the influence, and leading him to search for amy again, then, if Amy is Viola, she would not have found the Orb. Viola Figures this out and attempts to safeguard Sophie from the shadows. Viola seeks to stop everything that has happened, and to make the world go towards a more favourable fate, and to inform Sophie to protect Pyrrha at all costs, so that Cassandra will not be lost to Astral Chaos. All of this would let the world go in a different direction. All the while Zas will be trying to Thwart her for changing the future that he had envisioned.

Algol does not really make to much sense without reading the third part of the viola thing.

Spoiler: Algol

In regards to Viola, He could have been awoken by the travelling spell of viola from the 1600s to 1586. The amount of magic power caused a stir, as well as the introduction of such a powerful weapon as Quattor Orbis. The Combined power of Soul Edge, Quattor Orbis and Xianghua’s newly awakened Calibur. This Leads Alogol To seek the Disturbance that has Awoken him, Whilst also seeking the Powerful Auras of the Weapons that are now in the world, Namely Quattor Orbis, Soul Edge, Krita Yuga (And if we want to put things at a stretch, Kali-Yuga, Valentine and maybe Kafziel) This abundance of Power in the world also causes him to searchfor Kilik, Nightmare, Xianghua, as well as Viola, who has travelled to the now present. Algol then travels the world to return the world to order, or something.

 

[ZionOAS]

Some horizontal and vertical attacks are a bit similar, but:
has his crane stance, which make him very different from the other two. As for I would say that he would be equal to the Lizardman's case, despite having the Xianghua's base movements, he performs differently, his attacks makes more damage and aren't so girlie.
Incredible how many are unaware of the fact that Project Soul had given some Hwang's kicks to .

I was under the impression that Hwang was the original, Xianghua was a clone of him but a feminine offspring, and then Yun was a another clone that ended up getting fleshed out more. Hwang then took more of his moves but was subsequently dropped from the roster. Wasn’t this the deal with Mina being the original and Kiki’s taking her moves until they became separate fighters.

 

[LisaK]

Leixia had the Krita-Yuga, of course, since she got it from Xianghua, who was given it by Kilik before he departed to pursue the path of enlightenment. And then there’s everyone else, which is kind of anyone’s guess, really.

Dvapara-Yuga, Krita-Yuga is Soul Calibur.

 

[AMillionHP]

Never played this version. Interesting, thanks!

Yeah, the majority of us didnt and that is precisely why it should be disregarded. I might feel a little differently about Li Long and Hwang if they released an HD port of the game like they did SC and SC2. Very little though.

 

[DanteSC3]

Dvapara-Yuga, Krita-Yuga is Soul Calibur.

Oh yeah, derp. My mistake. You know what I meant.

 

[Rusted Blade]

I was under the impression that Hwang was the original, Xianghua was a clone of him but a feminine offspring, and then Yun was a another clone that ended up getting fleshed out more. Hwang then took more of his moves but was subsequently dropped from the roster. Wasn’t this the deal with Mina being the original and Kiki’s taking her moves until they became separate fighters.

Correct. Most people are a little hazy on the early days of the franchise, and this is one of those persistent points of confusion on this forum which seems to be a result of that fact. Hwang actually appears first, as a Soul Edge localization replacement for Mitsurugi in Korea (where a Japanese samurai as a playable protagonist at the time was considered a...questionable marketing move for a game). He has mostly Mitsu's moves with some slight variations. There was also (in the much later console port) a third character, Seong Han-Myeong (Seong Mi-na's father), who was playable and functioned as a third variation of this style; there are slight variations between the movesets of each, probably as much due to their arriving in different versions as any attempt to distinguish them much, but they are virtually clones of one-another.

Hwang would not get something looking like his eventual moveset until SCI, and was introduced at the same time as Xinghau. How that became "Hwang was introduced as a male variant of X" on this forum, I don't know, but this is about the fifth time I've heard it (and never anywhere else, so I assume it's just a detail one person here misremembered and it spread in this little corner of the community). Hwang and X did share some moves in SCI, but not to the extent of Nightmare and Siegfried, who were pretty much complete clones: they were more like Seong Mi-na and Kilik, who were already somewhat variant but hardly super distinct. Both X and Hwang appeared in SCII (or rather Hwang's moveset appeared with "Assassin" as the skin) by which point they featured very divergent styles. Yun-seong also appears in SCII, and had some verticals and kicks that were close analogs of some Hwang's traditional moves, but not straightforward duplicates. Hwang appears as a bonus character in SCIII:CE, where his style benefited from most of his SCII moveset and so had some more options than the average bonus character. He was completely re-worked for SCIII:AE, given an updated (but still roughly visually consistent with past appearances) and full moveset, at which point he and X no longer shared any moves, though they were still in the same rough class of range and speed. He didn't make an appearance in SCIV or SCV.

Yeah, the majority of us didnt and that is precisely why it should be disregarded. I might feel a little differently about Li Long and Hwang if they released an HD port of the game like they did SC and SC2. Very little though.

LOL? The majority of who? And whatever arbitrary group of people you are picking (which I guarantee does not include the major market of Japan), why would we therefor "disregard" Li Long? He still appeared in every version of that game and was a main roster character several games before that. I doubt very much that any decision about who gets the last couple of positions in the DLC is going to be made based on the market saturation of one particular version of one game in the franchise as it performed in one locality, fourteen years ago. Honestly, did Li Long kick your dog or something? :D

 

[DanteSC3]

Yeah, the majority of us didnt and that is precisely why they should be given a second fair chance in a worldwide release instead of being lost to obscurity.

Fixed. :p

 

[AMillionHP]

People select characters in fighting games as "mains" and become attached to them. Seeing as my favorite was in the previous two games but not yet in this one, then yes, i will care if my character's spot gets taken. Now, how exactly i feel about that will depend on who takes it. It will come down to things like popularity, uniqueness of the weapon/moveset/character, that sort of thing.

This notion that narrative takes precedence over everything else is absurd considering all the factors. This is a fighting game and narrative should always take a back seat for many reasons. Since some of these characters we are talking about havent been around for a while, it puts into question what they would contribute to the story anyway since it obviously wasnt essential to have them to begin with.

I touched on the availability of CAS and that not being a sufficient answer for these missing characters but if you're really being fair about this, you should consider a clear difference between some of these characters. Suggesting Hwang or Li Long be CASed is not ridiculous considering they have in fact been exactly that before. Hwang has had different movesets each game. Maybe Hwang and Li Long arent exactly Yun and Maxi but what are you telling Hilde and Algol players though? Use Mina and Azwel CAS? Come on now, at least Hwang and Li Long are actually believable in that regard. There isnt anything similar to Hilde and Algol.

No one has played SC3 AE comparatively speaking to any other game. It never had a console release and arcades were already dead by that time. Not in japan maybe but that doesnt matter. Its common knowledge japan never cared about this series. I dont know why this is even up for debate.

 

[Ardenwolf]

There isnt anything similar to Hilde and Algol.

Algol was random goofy shit, mostly in red and yellow. He would work just fine as Aswell in terms of close enough for a CaS. In fact Aswell is cooler in terms of weilding powers from both weapons than shooting bubbles and landing on people with a thrown and attacking with mutant rib meat. He'd actually be cooler with Aswell's move set in my opinion.

As for Hilde, sure I guess, if you limit her to using a weird pike/lance thing and dagger, but well, seeing as she looks to be trained soldier, most weapons would work except say nun-chucks or the goofy crap.

 

[AMillionHP]

Algol was random goofy shit, mostly in red and yellow. He would work just fine as Aswell in terms of close enough for a CaS. In fact Aswell is cooler in terms of weilding powers from both weapons than shooting bubbles and landing on people with a thrown and attacking with mutant rib meat. He'd actually be cooler with Aswell's move set in my opinion.

As for Hilde, sure I guess, if you limit her to using a weird pike/lance thing and dagger, but well, seeing as she looks to be trained soldier, most weapons would work except say nun-chucks or the goofy crap.

I dont care how goofy you think any of it is or what is cooler in your opinion. Hwang and Yun literally hold the exact same weapon. So do Maxi and Li Long, except his was bladed with two of them.

Azwell makes spears, swords, axes and levitates them around. Algol does none of that. However "goofy" his shit is, its still different.

In Hilde's case i dont even know what point you were trying to make, that any weapon would work? Ok whatever. That doesnt even deserve a response.

The whole point of my statement was to address the greater degree of similarities, not what is "cooler", or "goofy shit".


I think at this point its going to be an ongoing back and forth with no end so i'll just wait and see what kind of story focus is given to Cassandra and Amy. That could shed some light onto what PS' priority is concerning narrative. I suspect they'll have an equally engaging story as 2B.

 

[Rusted Blade]

This notion that narrative takes precedence over everything else is absurd considering all the factors. This is a fighting game and narrative should always take a back seat for many reasons. Since some of these characters we are talking about havent been around for a while, it puts into question what they would contribute to the story anyway since it obviously wasnt essential to have them to begin with.

Man, I couldn't agree more. And if we were having a discussion about who brings the most to the table in terms of unique mechanics, I'd be inclined to agree Hilde is the obvious choice over some of classic six characters I think are likely to be in the second season pass. But the devs of even fighting games are beholden to this idea of story mode needing to be a primary fixture in any major release. Beyond that, the development team for this particular entry has gone farther to actively embrace the primacy of the story (probably as a consequence of the backlash Namco faced in regard to SCV--though, for my money, that game's lack of multiple story modes was the least of its problems). The story has never been more fleshed out than it is in the present entry, and they've hewn incredibly closely to the path of the original plots of the first few games in this retelling. For better or for worse, their priorities are to reboot through a highly faithful adaptation.

So I think your "these guys haven't been around for a while" point actually cuts against your hopes to see SCIV and SCV characters in place of SE-SCIII characters. In that regard, the Rocks and the Hwangs contribute quite a bit more than the Algols and Hildes, whose time have not come yet, narratively speaking. Is it for the best? Meh? I'm not picky and I'd be just as happy with Li Long or Natsu. But in this particular thread I'm more concerned with making accurate predictions about what is to come rather than debating the relative value of characters as a subjective matter.

I touched on the availability of CAS and that not being a sufficient answer for these missing characters but if you're really being fair about this, you should consider a clear difference between some of these characters. Suggesting Hwang or Li Long be CASed is not ridiculous considering they have in fact been exactly that before. Hwang has had different movesets each game. Maybe Hwang and Li Long arent exactly Yun and Maxi but what are you telling Hilde and Algol players though? Use Mina and Azwel CAS? Come on now, at least Hwang and Li Long are actually believable in that regard. There isnt anything similar to Hilde and Algol.

But doesn't that run directly counter to your last point? Most people who have been with the franchise long enough to remember all of those characters are hardcore players, and they are more interested in seeing an updated version of the moveset than they are with having the character themselves. Sure, there are some of those oddball story nuts among the vets (um, no offense Dante! ;) but mostly longterm players want their hands on a classic style. Anyway, again, this is more about the devs' design objectives than it is about which set of players' priorities are more reasonable.

No one has played SC3 AE comparatively speaking to any other game. It never had a console release and arcades were already dead by that time. Not in japan maybe but that doesnt matter. Its common knowledge japan never cared about this series. I dont know why this is even up for debate.

Ehhh, I'm gonna have to push back on a few things here. Plenty of people played that version of the game back in the day. And I'm not sure where you're getting that "common knowledge" about the franchise's popularity in Japan, but its market share there is roughly equivalent to what it is here, which is to say that it plays second fiddle to Tekken, but does alright for itself. And that market very much does matter to Namco. In any event, I don't think your argument would really track very well even if your predicates were correct. Most people haven't played two thirds of the games in the series. Indeed, given the strong sales figures for SCVI to date, I'd venture that at this point, a majority of those who have bought it have never played a single previous Soul Calibur game. So taking your argument to it's logical conclusion, there's very little reason to need any character to be from a previous game, recent or otherwise.

But of course the devs don't design a game based entirely (or even primarily) upon such recency, recognizability, and fan service. They are craftspeople who know that the base product has to be solid, that the whole is more important, and that you can shoot yourself in the foot by trying to design a product that is just a mish-mash of random marketing objectives slapped together in a haphazard manner. Some of the worst games ever made were the result of chasing a bunch of money-making ideas that looked good on paper but which made for a shit end product, and publishers have taken some serious financial hits in recent time for being myopic in exactly that way. So the smart developer sets out to make a game that will play well, stand on its own merits, and which will mostly gain traction by getting solid reviews for how it works as a whole. And they make various decisions about how to achieve that end which will often preclude choices that, standing alone, would seem to be good ideas in terms of marketability, but which just would clash with the other choices they've made in forming their vision of the game. I think that may be the point that people are missing here, more than anything. People want to say "Why not Hilde? Why not Viola? Plenty of us want them?" But the answer is, that's just not the game they have in mind right now.

Or, they want to proceed with content in a certain order. I just hope that if I am correct and the next six characters are the remaining SE-SCIII selections, people don't get so pissy about it that they won't buy them, and therefore preclude a possible season 3, which I think Namco would certainly would choose to do (story beats or no) if the first two prove profitable, and which third season I think would be certain to have the SCIV/BD crew. It would be pretty ironic if those holding out for Hilde and Algol brought about the situation where neither of those characters get into the game at all, just by not being able to tolerate a wait while the development team populated the roster on their own terms and schedule. Ironic, and unfortunate for all of us. I may be arguing very strongly that the SCIV & SCV characters are not coming next, but that doesn't mean I don't want them.

Spoiler: My daydreaming about the perfect SC game

Mind you, I'd love it if your story-last priorities were the devs' priorities: my perfect SC game is "Soul Calibur Arena": all development resources put into bringing back the 70ish movesets of the franchise to date (including money spent on the licensing to bring back as many guests as possible), 40-50 HD remakes of classic stages, simple online versus and team battle modes, a trainer/lab, and a CaS editor with as many of the past art assets from across the series as possible. No money wasted on pointless story mode drivel presented through 50 hours of tin-eared dialogue delivered by mediocre voice acting over light novel sketch cutscenes. No branching story path collect-o-thons, or unlockable art galleries. Just a straight fighter representing the breadth and depth of the series, well balanced and exhaustive in presenting all of the tactical options we have ever had open to us. They'll never make that game of course--they'd get dragged across the coals by entitled gamers furious about not having a "proper story" for their favourite wooden cyborg demon ninja bandit, and Namco would take a bath on sales. But alas, that's the reality of things, and I'm happy to play ball and take the good with the bad. We're getting more characters than I expected at this juncture and I'm psyched. I don't particularly care whether those are all the remaining "classic" characters or not, but I'm increasingly convinced from the growing body of evidence that this is exactly what we are getting.

 

[FluffyQuack]

Well, I don't think anyone discussing these matters here in this moment of time is particularly heated about it. But to be fair, I don't think your use of the word "clone" was particularly clear, precisely because it did clash with people's expectations of what the term typically means in fighting games. But regardless, I do believe people have tried to reach beyond the nomenclature you employed to the substance of your argument. What you call "clones" (let's call them "similar weapon styles" for our present purposes) have never been a problem for the series since they became common, and certainly didn't stop the devs from adding them into any entry, ever:

• Soul Calibur II had five pairs of similar characters, including three sword and shield styles.
• Soul Calibur III had four sword and weapon characters, and six other pairs of characters with similar weapons. As Dante noted, the problems people had with that game were not in the selection of styles but in the execution of quality control with regard to new universal mechanics, like the variable cancel and the poor balancing work overall.
• Soul Calibur IV had four pairs of similarly-armed characters, one sword and weapon trio. and one lightsaber trio.
• Soul Calibur V had fewer of these pairs, it is true, but A) that is just because it had a smaller cast in general, being a rushed game and B) not many people use V as a barometer for what a Soul Calibur game should look like in its constitution, in any event.

So when is it that these similar weapons became a problem for the franchise? Because I never saw it, and until recent debates about the upcoming DLC, I can't recall, in twenty plus years of playing these games, much complaint about them. I certainly don't believe that this thinking is likely to be a major factor exerting influence on which characters the devs will ultimately choose to release as DLC. In fact, I think that Amy and Cassie (and the hints of the codenames) seem to suggest otherwise. And that's just as well, because when they do get off the beaten path of established weapons, we end up with ZWEIs and Grohs...and I'd rather have a dozen Sophitia replicants than more of that!

The only time there is a real problem with similar styles is when they occupy too similar a strategic niche or share more than a couple of moves. Thankfully, the development teams for this franchise are pretty talented at avoiding that. Amy plays nothing like Raphael in SCIV, for example, and I presume they will be even farther apart this time around. Soul charge and the deeper mechanics of the franchise these days only reduce the likelihood of redundancy (however similar the weapons look) so if it wasn't a problem in the past, I don't anticipate it will be this time.

The whole "clone" controversy is baffling to me. I wasn't following the hype before SC2 and earlier games, but I can't remember anyone complaining about supposed "clones" in SC3 and SC4 around launch. People complained about that in SC5 with Pyrrha and Pyrrha Omega but that was a lot more understandable (and there were also other major problems about the roster people complained about, like the three mimics). But I'm really surprised to see quite a few people be 100% against the idea of multiple characters using the same weapon when it's been a thing in the series since day one and with those characters having unique movesets. I saw one guy get quite mad about the DLC being Cassandra and Amy instead of Hilde even though he admits himself he has no interest in actually playing as Hilde.

I feel like some Soul Calibur fans would get a heart attack if they played certain other fighting games. Like how Street Fighter has multiple shotos. Or how Tekken has several characters using kung fu or Mishima-style martial arts. Or how Last Blade 2 has about six characters using katanas.

I assume the small roster is what sparked this, but I'm still surprised. I tried to look up reactions to Anna being announced for Tekken 7, and I didn't see people getting angry about her inclusion even though you could easily argue she's just as much of a "clone" as Cassandra or Amy.

 

[Frayhua]

The whole "clone" controversy is baffling to me. I wasn't following the hype before SC2 and earlier games, but I can't remember anyone complaining about supposed "clones" in SC3 and SC4 around launch.

No one complained because they were in the base roster.

I assume the small roster is what sparked this.

Season 1 can't please everyone & a Season 2 has to be made. The forsight for Season 2 was already set due to the character select screen with a blank spot in the center in every build of SCVI.

 

[Rusted Blade]

The whole "clone" controversy is baffling to me. I wasn't following the hype before SC2 and earlier games, but I can't remember anyone complaining about supposed "clones" in SC3 and SC4 around launch. People complained about that in SC5 with Pyrrha and Pyrrha Omega but that was a lot more understandable (and there were also other major problems about the roster people complained about, like the three mimics). But I'm really surprised to see quite a few people be 100% against the idea of multiple characters using the same weapon when it's been a thing in the series since day one and with those characters having unique movesets. I saw one guy get quite mad about the DLC being Cassandra and Amy instead of Hilde even though he admits himself he has no interest in actually playing as Hilde.

I feel like some Soul Calibur fans would get a heart attack if they played certain other fighting games. Like how Street Fighter has multiple shotos. Or how Tekken has several characters using kung fu or Mishima-style martial arts. Or how Last Blade 2 has about six characters using katanas.

I assume the small roster is what sparked this, but I'm still surprised. I tried to look up reactions to Anna being announced for Tekken 7, and I didn't see people getting angry about her inclusion even though you could easily argue she's just as much of a "clone" as Cassandra or Amy.

Yeah, I share your confusion at this and I've been trying puzzle out why this kind of sentiment has arisen at this particular moment in time. The simple (but perhaps dubious) answer is that gamers are just really entitled right now, and willing to vent there displeasure with choices through any post-hoc rationalization that occurs (please, I really hope nobody presently involved in this discussion takes this as a direct dig at you personally, I'm just speculating about the cultural issues in general, because this a new phenomenon; I by no means intend to imply this factor applies to you in particular). It's at least possible that gaming communities, having flexed their collective muscle in recent time to push back against companies using bullshit merchant practices (micro-transactions and such) are composed more of gamers who are a little drunk on power and quite happy to share their dissatisfaction about anything at this point.

On the other hand, it may have nothing to do with the moment in time in that respect: it may just be that the serialized content approach fighting game devs are experimenting with right now allows people more opportunity to just complain in general. In years past, the content just dropped all at once and whatever you got, you got. You could voice your disappointment, but there was no sense that it made any practical difference. Now maybe people feel (realistically or not) that if they are talking about upcoming serialized content, there's meaning behind their complaints as they could have an impact on things. I don't know if that's going to ever be much the case in reality, but it may be the psychology at work nevertheless.

Regardless, I think the similar weapons issue is a pretty superficial thing to focus on: as you note, it's nearly ubiquitous in the fighting game genre. I'm having a hard time thinking of many games that avoid it entirely. I guess After-Night In-Birth's characters are mostly pretty different from one-another (though they like to...let's say "borrow" rather liberally from other franchises), but that's a pretty small cast, and its easier with a 2D urban fantasy-based story. I mean, at the end of the day, I can see how it could theoretically be a problem with lazy design, but Project Soul has already established their bonafides time and time again in this area--even back in the day when people were perfectly tolerant of highly similar styles, Soul Calibur games from II onward have all included pairs or groups of characters sporting similar weapons who nevertheless play to drastically different strengths and weaknesses. It's one of PS's specialties, you might even say. If they could make that work solidly in the PS2 era, when movesets were not nearly as deep, I have no doubt they can make it work now, which greatly increased design options, not the least of which is Soul Charge in this particular game.

The irony is, even before this new debate took root, I think most of us were deeply impressed with the results in this entry, with regard to characters feeling unique. Siegfried and Nightmare, for example, who started out as actual clones in SCI, have never played more differently than they do today. I presume their common origin would be a surprise to anyone who didn't know their history as characters. Even as recently as SCIV and SCV, they still shared a very similar niche and even a number of legacy moves, and yet no one regarded them as "clones" or anything even remotely close. I have no concerns whatsoever that Cassie and Amy are going to be solid and unique. And even if they drop Hwang and Yun-seong together, I'm confident they will not be duplicative. PS has my full faith in that respect.

 

[DanteSC3]

@Rusted Blade No offense taken! I know that myself and others perhaps care too much about the story, if such a thing is possible, but for me, and I imagine for them too, the characters, their backstories, their accomplishments, their history, all that plays into them just as well as their weapons and move sets do. It's a big part of why SoulCalibur V was such a failure, I truly believe. If the newbies were given their justifications through a competent story mode, like Soul Chronicle, then people would have been far more accepting of them replacing their beloved long term favorites. Don't get me wrong, it's still not something anyone asked for, and replacing characters is always going to have a negative side to it, but it's still a better situation to have an idea about who it is that is replacing your main instead of it being some blank slate snot-nosed kid that you're not even sure where they came from or what they're doing in the story unless you purchase, of all things, an art book that contains more biographical information as the game itself does.

I too wish to have a no-nonsense all-for-fun entry in the series, and it's what I was actually expecting we would get, instead of SoulCalibur V, to take a page from Tekken's book: SoulCalibur Tag Tournament. Both Tekken Tag Tournament games are completely non-canon, nonsensical (even more so than the main entries!), and really just for fun, adding in the tag team element and including folks from all over the roster, regardless if they're alive, dead, relevant, not relevant, clones, literally the same character in a different format, whatever, it doesn't matter. SoulCalibur IV teased the tagging mechanic in its meager single player offerings, the best part of those modes, for me, but then didn't let you use the tag mechanics in multiplayer! Why?! I thought, for sure, it made sense to me, that maybe they were using SoulCalibur IV to test the feature with SoulCalibur mechanics, and they'd work out the kinks and put it in the next game, especially because SoulCalibur IV was being so conclusive with everyone's stories, where it really did feel like a terminal point.

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@Sectus I haven't been a member of this particular community, though I did know of it, until after SoulCalibur VI was announced, but I have been involved in other communities in the past, and there really wasn't as much complaining about "clones" in the older games as there is today. It could be as Frayhua suggests, that it's different when the clones are just part of the base game and when people are being asked to pay extra, but I don't even think it's that, I think it's just that people are really defensive about their mains, and you can see that in SoulCalibur V as well, with so many cut characters, even ones who didn't get full or even partial replacements, like Talim and Zasalamel. But this is another piece of why I believe that they are seeking to recreate the SoulCalibur III: Arcade Edition roster, to bring back everyone, to have a logical point where everyone is included, and, the most important part, to move forward to SoulCalibur VII without dropping any of these characters.

We'll keep everyone from this game, guests excluded, obviously, and move forward to SoulCalibur VII, where we'll add Algol, Hilde, and maybe even Dampierre, with a couple of new folks like Grøh and Azwel, and then the DLC offerings can be teases for SoulCalibur VIII, perhaps getting early in the timeskip versions of Z.W.E.I. and Viola, for starters, and maybe getting a few other key players that we don't think about too much, like Salia, for example, as it was she who inspired Siegfried to recreate the Schwarzwind during the gap, or even Dampierre's henchmen, Alphard, Gisele, and Ludovigo, to help us care about Le Bello and his story, to really flesh him out. The best way I can think, to appeal to hardcore fans and also casuals, is to keep everyone, having a healthy roster, and not getting rid of peoples' mains ever again. They have to build up to that point, but once they're there, they simply have to maintain.

Imagine, if you will, a SoulCalibur V that doesn't cut anyone, and also includes the new kids, each of them having their own unique styles and flairs. This could indeed be the very real SoulCalibur VIII that we may get eventually, if support remains high and the series carries on like it is. Then we can carry on to the future, continuing on without a broken base of fans.

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@Frayhua I'm still not wholly convinced that the middle hole means anything, especially considering that they'll have to make another one, if they don't revamp the current format, adding three characters to each side, we'll have another hole in the bottom row. If they do anything with the existing hole, I think it will be adding Edge Master as a free DLC character to cap off the first season, as a true mimic character. That would be the best way to handle it. And then, at the end of season two, they might can fill the new hole by adding Olcadan, our other mimic that has fans, actually, and is Edge Master's rival. It would be both poetic and manage to not make anyone upset, since they would be free DLC bonuses. Maybe idealistic, but it's what I think.

More realistically speaking, they may indeed just revamp the entire thing, like Tekken 7, when season two is officially announced.

 

[Klimat]

Man, I couldn't agree more. And if we were having a discussion about who brings the most to the table in terms of unique mechanics, I'd be inclined to agree Hilde is the obvious choice over some of classic six characters I think are likely to be in the second season pass. But the devs of even fighting games are beholden to this idea of story mode needing to be a primary fixture in any major release.

In case that to Project Soul story is indeed the first priority as you say, then even more so they should put Hilde over Li Long any day of the week. Hilde's SC1 timeline backstory is arguably just as if not more interesting than her actual SC4 timeline plot. Meanwhile, care to recall what Li Long did in SC1 timeline? He was mostly running away from generic assassins avoiding actual fights at all costs due to being traumatised physically and mentally by Cervantes back in Soul Edge. Very exiting.

 

[AMillionHP]

@DanteSC3 I dont think its realistic to assume everyone is coming back for the next installment. It will have just as many new characters and guests as every other game. How can you be confident PS can increase their work load like that? We dont even know when we can expect the rest of season 1. Or what exactly season 2 even is. We just have hacked codenames that suggest 6 missing characters.

@Sectus I can only speak for myself but i dont care about clones. I care about my main missing from the roster. Then i start looking at DLC and who DID get in.

@Klimat Yeah, i feel the same way. Like they would have to retcon and shoehorn story material just to make Li Long interesting because honestly, what did he do? Other factors go into what makes these characters useful. Not just who is or isnt a clone.

 

[DanteSC3]

@AMillionHP Losing characters wasn't really a thing to a significant degree until SoulCalibur V, that's why:

From SoulBlade to SoulCalibur: Li Long
From SoulCalibur to SoulCalibur II: (technically) Aeon, Hwang, and Rock, but they had generics, and Siegfried, but he was literally Nightmare
From SoulCalibur II to SoulCalibur III: Necrid, if he even really counts
From SoulCalibur III to SoulCalibur IV: Hwang and Li Long
From SoulCalibur IV to SoulCalibur V: (technically) Amy, because Viola, but definitely Cassandra, Rock, Seong Mi-na, Setsuka, Sophitia, Talim, Taki, Xianghua, Yun-seong, and Zasalamel
From SoulCalibur V to SoulCalibur VI: Algol, Dampierre, Hilde, Viola, Z.W.E.I., and the kids, but the kids literally don't exist yet

If they could do it from the beginning to SoulCalibur IV without losing many characters, then they could do it again going forward from SoulCalibur VI.
It's bizarre to assume/suspect that losing a significant number of characters is a necessity for the next game in the series.

 

[Rusted Blade]

In case that to Project Soul story is indeed the first priority as you say, then even more so they should put Hilde over Li Long any day of the week. Hilde's SC1 timeline backstory is arguably just as if not more interesting than her actual SC4 timeline plot. Meanwhile, care to recall what Li Long did in SC1 timeline? He was mostly running away from generic assassins avoiding actual fights at all costs due to being traumatised physically and mentally by Cervantes back in Soul Edge. Very exiting.

Well, lets's keep in mind the quality of the story here, and it's formatting limitations. When I say keeping fidelity to story beats seems to be a priority for them, I mean only that. They just want to be consisent, but let's be honest here: they've never been good storytellers, really, and they are limited to what kind of story they can tell in a fight-static cut scene-fight kind of formula. You say, for example: "He was mostly running away from generic assassins avoiding actual fights at all costs due to being traumatised physically and mentally by [X] back in Soul Edge." Well, you do realize that you just described Siegfried's plot in SCVI to a T, right? Whines a little about having murdered his father, fights an assassin who hopes to steal Soul Edge; bemoans the cruelty of his fate, fights a guy who came to kill the azure knight for fame/vengeance/whatever; has a little pity party about how he will never get out from under the shadow of his shame, rips the spine out some random bandit. Repeat until the devs have created the requisite number of missions.

And its pretty much the same for virtually every character in the broad strokes. Look, Shakespeare this ain't, man. If you want to get me to defend one character as "a better story choice" than another, I'm afraid I can't oblige. That was not the point of my previous comments. No version of this story is not silly, and no iteration of it in the past (let alone the present one with its light novel sketch format and it's unending poorly-sritten, badly-acted, generic dialogue between the protagonists and disposable extras) was ever particularly well told. All I'm saying is that the devs seem to have an idea of reconstructing the story along its original chronology. I'm sure that they can come up with enough random thugs and bad dialogue to keep Li Long going for a few missions, just like they did, generically, with virtually everyone's Soul Chronicle.

Also, you're presuming that the DLC characters will all get their own Soul Chronicle story line. I'm not sure we know for a fact that they will. Tira did, but she was day one DLC. 2B didn't but she's a guest character (then again, Geralt is a Guest and did). Personally, I really, really hope they don't. Becuase those stories add virtually nothing to the package as far as I am concerned, and if PS feels beholden to add one for every DLC character, that is likely to drastically reduce the number of characters we get total, and could also impact the level of resources put into finessing and balancing their move sets. I think we should all be crossing our fingers that the story we have in the base game at present is mostly it for this entry. But, if I had to guess, they will indeed have a Soul Chronicle. I really wish that we would see something more along the lines of what Okubo left the door open for in that quote you shared: drop characters from any time period in, without the need to explain it all. Because why not? But I suspect they will continue to move in the prescribed direction of VI: tight story consistency, and a need to tie everything in.

 

[Rusted Blade]

@AMillionHP Losing characters wasn't really a thing to a significant degree until SoulCalibur V, that's why:

From SoulBlade to SoulCalibur: Li Long
From SoulCalibur to SoulCalibur II: (technically) Aeon, Hwang, and Rock, but they had generics, and Siegfried, but he was literally Nightmare
From SoulCalibur II to SoulCalibur III: Necrid, if he even really counts
From SoulCalibur III to SoulCalibur IV: Hwang and Li Long
From SoulCalibur IV to SoulCalibur V: (technically) Amy, because Viola, but definitely Cassandra, Rock, Seong Mi-na, Setsuka, Sophitia, Talim, Taki, Xianghua, Yun-seong, and Zasalamel
From SoulCalibur V to SoulCalibur VI: Algol, Dampierre, Hilde, Viola, Z.W.E.I., and the kids, but the kids literally don't exist yet

If they could do it from the beginning to SoulCalibur IV without losing many characters, then they could do it again going forward from SoulCalibur VI.
It's bizarre to assume/suspect that losing a significant number of characters is a necessity for the next game in the series.

Yeah, I wish I could endorse your view on this Dante, truly I do--because I really do want them to go back to the days where most of the cast in each game was held over and we only got more--but I just don't think it's in the cards. We're in a different era for game development now. Development costs have skyrocketed, while the pricepoint for a base game has been frozen for more than 25 years in most markets. On top of this, in order to compete in the online marketplaces, publishers are compelled to cut those prices (typically significantly) within the first year or two, utilizing sales to generate spikes in interest to keep things afloat. It's just not feasible for them to drop 30-40 characters in the base game like it once was--not if they also want to accommodate gamer demands for fully fleshed out story modes and also have everything be polished, non-buggy, and relatively well balanced. That's why I wish they would just start selling the story-heavy modes as add-ons--but clearly consumers are not ready for that yet (look how people lose their minds whenever even an FPS decides not to have a heavy single player campaign).

This situation is why fighter developers in particular are moving towards a serialized content model. We'll see how well it works out for Namco (well, I hope), and if it does do well, we might be lucky enough to see a situation where, in each entry, they eventually reconstitute the better part of the roster in each game through a series of DLC releases--but even then, entitled gamers are likely to have an illogical (but psychologically understandable) reaction to having to buy the same characters over and over. Regardless, gone are the days when we will see a 3D fighter of this quality and complexity drop a roster in the main game which reflects virtually everyone from the previous game. Alas. It'll be 24 characters if we're lucky and then whoever makes the cut thereafter in season passes. Until the devs and the market are ready to allow or competing versions of the same game which lean towards story-focused and hardcore-leaning players respectively (with those such as yourself who straddle those groups having to pay a premium to get everything--which, if I am frank, is only fair to the rest of us and the developers! :)

Anyway, a lot can change in the market before SCVII; anybody expecting it before 2024-2026 is kidding themselves.