Talim in SCVI: Move Study & Analysis

Full charge 4B(A) can also be comboed into after WS A+B, WNF K, 8B (far range), and a 3B that hits on the opponent’s side. You can get BT B guaranteed from it, though if it’s character specific off of everything except 3B.
 
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I'm going to ramble for a bit about the moves that I don't use very much, if at all. My knee jerk impressions of them, and trying to figure out what they are supposed to be used for. If you happen to use any of these moves, let me know, cause I would like to know how other people are using them. Likewise, if you have any moves you don't use often, that maybe I've found a use for (some listed here I have found a use for through my ramblings the last few days), let me know.


1B: As I talked about before, is + on counter, neutral on hit, which with the boon of her while rising B can be useful due to clashes. This move is now no longer deemed useless to me. "Okay" move. I have officially won games due to baiting the clashes from this.

4K: Really low damage, and another high -- god forbid she have a sweeping mid with some amount of range. I guess it's +8, so after it hits you can safely do verticals without the fear of getting stepped (character specific I imagine. Seems to lock down another Talim), so I guess that's why. Still, wish it had some counter property on it. Can't really see myself using this often. Eh... but +8 is nice, and it is only -2 on block. I might try using it for awhile.

A6: Eh... again, if this was a mid it would fill some hole in her kit, but as it is, it's -2 on block, which is the most unique thing about it. I guess maybe against slow characters you might be able to force turns with this. Doesn't seem great though.

FC A+B: I finally figured out why this move exists, even if it is still sort of niche due to how slow it is. Generally you're better off doing 236B as a reaction high crush from crouch, but this move does actually have full tracking on it, which is useful. It's just a shame it's a bit too slow to be all that practical, but I will be trying to work this in. Only -14 on block, so a tracking mid launcher that is only mildly punishable on block isn't too bad. I'm going to try and tinker with it more.

4A+B: It's actually has a pretty fast backstep built into it, so I've been seeing some minor use out of this move. On shorter range characters, you can sort of steal turns with it after a blocked AA or something.

44A+B: I... do not know what the purpose of this move is. It's slow, does low damage, especially since the downed state tends to knock them too far to get much unless you were point blank, doesn't hit grounded opponents, doesn't track, does mild guard damage (12% if all hits hit). I just don't get the purpose of it. I feel like in every instance where I would use this, I would be better off using 66A+B, which while is slightly slower, is about three times better in every other aspect.

22_88B: I don't think it's a terrible move, but I tend to find it not worth using. It's slightly slower than 3B, is more unsafe (though has more pushback), does convert a bit if you hit the Just Frame, but overall just doesn't seem very useful to me. If it hit grounded opponents I'd get it, sort of. Hilariously, the second hit only hits grounded if you DON'T hit the JF. I dunno, just seems like a weird move.

214B: Besides maybe a very specific wall combo, or maybe... dropping a combo after a heavy scaling opportunity like a certain guard break or something, where maybe hitting with this on their wakeup would be better, I don't know how the HELL you're ever supposed to land this thing. Also the cancel makes zero sense. The unblockable is a linear move, you step it. Her WNS... is a linear move... you step it. What "mix-up" is this cancel supposed to bring? Literally none. The only thing I could think of using this for, is right in someone's face, to make them step (they should just hit you), and then canceling immediately into WNS A+B to hit them or something. Been trying to find a use for this for awhile, but I haven't found any setups where this actually works.

WNF A+B: Also known as the world's slowest unblockable. It's cancel point is also really slow. I mean... if it DOES hit... near a wall... on a sunday... between 3-4 PM, you do get a crap ton of damage. In SC you can almost kill off of this combo starter, but uh... yeah -- good luck with that.
 
Skiegh said:
I'm going to ramble for a bit about the moves that I don't use very much, if at all. My knee jerk impressions of them, and trying to figure out what they are supposed to be used for. If you happen to use any of these moves, let me know, cause I would like to know how other people are using them. Likewise, if you have any moves you don't use often, that maybe I've found a use for (some listed here I have found a use for through my ramblings the last few days), let me know.


1B: As I talked about before, is + on counter, neutral on hit, which with the boon of her while rising B can be useful due to clashes. This move is now no longer deemed useless to me. "Okay" move. I have officially won games due to baiting the clashes from this.

4K: Really low damage, and another high -- god forbid she have a sweeping mid with some amount of range. I guess it's +8, so after it hits you can safely do verticals without the fear of getting stepped (character specific I imagine. Seems to lock down another Talim), so I guess that's why. Still, wish it had some counter property on it. Can't really see myself using this often. Eh... but +8 is nice, and it is only -2 on block. I might try using it for awhile.

A6: Eh... again, if this was a mid it would fill some hole in her kit, but as it is, it's -2 on block, which is the most unique thing about it. I guess maybe against slow characters you might be able to force turns with this. Doesn't seem great though.

FC A+B: I finally figured out why this move exists, even if it is still sort of niche due to how slow it is. Generally you're better off doing 236B as a reaction high crush from crouch, but this move does actually have full tracking on it, which is useful. It's just a shame it's a bit too slow to be all that practical, but I will be trying to work this in. Only -14 on block, so a tracking mid launcher that is only mildly punishable on block isn't too bad. I'm going to try and tinker with it more.

4A+B: It's actually has a pretty fast backstep built into it, so I've been seeing some minor use out of this move. On shorter range characters, you can sort of steal turns with it after a blocked AA or something.

44A+B: I... do not know what the purpose of this move is. It's slow, does low damage, especially since the downed state tends to knock them too far to get much unless you were point blank, doesn't hit grounded opponents, doesn't track, does mild guard damage (12% if all hits hit). I just don't get the purpose of it. I feel like in every instance where I would use this, I would be better off using 66A+B, which while is slightly slower, is about three times better in every other aspect.

22_88B: I don't think it's a terrible move, but I tend to find it not worth using. It's slightly slower than 3B, is more unsafe (though has more pushback), does convert a bit if you hit the Just Frame, but overall just doesn't seem very useful to me. If it hit grounded opponents I'd get it, sort of. Hilariously, the second hit only hits grounded if you DON'T hit the JF. I dunno, just seems like a weird move.

214B: Besides maybe a very specific wall combo, or maybe... dropping a combo after a heavy scaling opportunity like a certain guard break or something, where maybe hitting with this on their wakeup would be better, I don't know how the HELL you're ever supposed to land this thing. Also the cancel makes zero sense. The unblockable is a linear move, you step it. Her WNS... is a linear move... you step it. What "mix-up" is this cancel supposed to bring? Literally none. The only thing I could think of using this for, is right in someone's face, to make them step (they should just hit you), and then canceling immediately into WNS A+B to hit them or something. Been trying to find a use for this for awhile, but I haven't found any setups where this actually works.

WNF A+B: Also known as the world's slowest unblockable. It's cancel point is also really slow. I mean... if it DOES hit... near a wall... on a sunday... between 3-4 PM, you do get a crap ton of damage. In SC you can almost kill off of this combo starter, but uh... yeah -- good luck with that.
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1B I use more than I probably should. I don't like the +6 on CH only. I personally dislike moves that have drastic frame changes with no visual cues on CH. When I'm throwing this move out, I'm looking for it to hit to set up the next thing. Looking for a red spark on a move like this feels more complicated than it needs to be. If they wanted it to be a plus on hit low, why not ALWAYS be plus. If not +6 then +2 or 3 at least. I'm gonna stop here...

44A+B is safe and a fast TC. It actually would be a good move if there weren't so many off axis whiffing issues on hit. It's funny that you say mild guard damage for 12% because when I first saw it I was like "great guard damage". Then I saw the rest of the cast...

4K is garbage. Always has been. I wish they'd make the 2nd hit of 4AK the new 4K. It's -2 on block but so it A6 and A6 has more range. Standing K even has more range. Feels like they just put the move back because she's always had it.

FC A+B is actually a good move. I just hate the input change. I have lost countless games online to ducking amove and doing Rising A+B and getting the slow ass guard break instead, lol.
 
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44A+B I found to be the fast safe on block instant TC move she has. The preferred way to steal turns I guess. Also, I'm not sure if it has tech jump frames in between the hits. And I think her highest guard damage move is 15% (A+B), so it's not that bad in Talim world.

1B pulls opponents in too.

FC A+B Tracking... I'll have to look into this. Still bummed the first hit hits high and its so slow.

4A+B is useful only to evade throws in my opinion since every character has good range on AA/BB except Taki/Talim.

4K is good against Nightmare. That's it, hahaha.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Highest non-SC, non-RE guard damage is 18% with buzzsaw. (WNS A+B).
How is 4K good vs Nightmare?
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If they are predictably doing GSA, you can 4K to CH beat them out of GS while maintaining distance/momentum. I'm exaggerating because it specifically is a good against NOOB Nightmare.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
1B I use more than I probably should. I don't like the +6 on CH only. I personally dislike moves that have drastic frame changes with no visual cues on CH. When I'm throwing this move out, I'm looking for it to hit to set up the next thing. Looking for a red spark on a move like this feels more complicated than it needs to be. If they wanted it to be a plus on hit low, why not ALWAYS be plus. If not +6 then +2 or 3 at least. I'm gonna stop here...

44A+B is safe and a fast TC. It actually would be a good move if there weren't so many off axis whiffing issues on hit. It's funny that you say mild guard damage for 12% because when I first saw it I was like "great guard damage". Then I saw the rest of the cast...

4K is garbage. Always has been. I wish they'd make the 2nd hit of 4AK the new 4K. It's -2 on block but so it A6 and A6 has more range. Standing K even has more range. Feels like they just put the move back because she's always had it.

FC A+B is actually a good move. I just hate the input change. I have lost countless games online to ducking amove and doing Rising A+B and getting the slow ass guard break instead, lol.
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1B isn't bad, I'm using it more. Seems like an okay tool.

44A+B, I feel like safe is relative considering it's start-up. Think if I wanted to TC, I would just do 1A+B, 22_88A or 236B. I'll try tinkering with it more. Seems more like a move you'd use just to throw people off -- as that move no one sees very often so they're like "wha...? I didn't lab this." Now if only it had a ringout option, but Talim isn't allowed to have those.

4K, yeah, I also wish 4AK's second hit was just 4K as a whole. Especially if it came with the minor counter hit state on the kick still. I feel like 4A is better than 4K in every way besides the block advantage, but you get damage by the follow-up, it hits farther because she steps in. I dunno, this move is just worthless to me outside of maaaybe the need to have a "kick" move that can't be aGIed by something.

FC A+B I still need to work in more. It's just such a slow move it's hard to get mileage out of it. Even though I have no legacy memory, I also screw up this move's input a lot, because it looks like a while rising move. Technically we gain access to more moves while crouching having it with the input it has now, but it's still a big visual disparity.
 
What does everyone think of 3A? I feel like it's not a really fantastic move, yet I find myself using it a ton and getting good mileage out of it.
 
I think its only shortcomings are in damage (pitiful) and start up (slightly slow). It isn't as useful a TC as 3B or 1A+B, but it is safe on block and, most importantly, it tracks mid. Also has some uses for positioning.
 
Thylacine492 said:
I think its only shortcomings are in damage (pitiful) and start up (slightly slow). It isn't as useful a TC as 3B or 1A+B, but it is safe on block and, most importantly, it tracks mid. Also has some uses for positioning.
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The main shortcoming for me is the range. But running up and doing it seems to work if people move or whatever.
 
I wish bt b+k a+b tracked better and 3a would guard crush while soul charged. Feels like a missed design decision.

But the only reason I use 3a is for a delayed safe mid to catch flinching. The backlash against Talim strategy option selects me too often.
 
3A is one of those moves you look at and you're like... "This is the best we've got..."

It's not a great normal, but it's one of the only tracking mids she has, a flaw in her kit I am finding by the day to be all too annoying to deal with. You can step Talim so easily due to her shitty 2A/AA range and lack of tracking mids (and the ones we do have also have no range). Characters with stepping TCs are a nightmare for her, I tend to find.

Wish 3A was faster, slid all the way across the screen, and didn't have the most ridiculous damage scaling, but that ain't gonna happen, haha.

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Same flaw in 3A is the same one I tend to find suits a lot of her kit: it's slow. She's a surprisingly slow character, ya wouldn't think it by the looks, but she is.

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Still wish A6 was mid, would solve a lot of my problems. Or 44A being mid also would be nice, or 44K tracking. Really, I'm just annoyed with 80% of her kit being highs.
 
Skiegh said:
3A is one of those moves you look at and you're like... "This is the best we've got..."

It's not a great normal, but it's one of the only tracking mids she has, a flaw in her kit I am finding by the day to be all too annoying to deal with. You can step Talim so easily due to her shitty 2A/AA range and lack of tracking mids (and the ones we do have also have no range). Characters with stepping TCs are a nightmare for her, I tend to find.

Wish 3A was faster, slid all the way across the screen, and didn't have the most ridiculous damage scaling, but that ain't gonna happen, haha.

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Same flaw in 3A is the same one I tend to find suits a lot of her kit: it's slow. She's a surprisingly slow character, ya wouldn't think it by the looks, but she is.

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Still wish A6 was mid, would solve a lot of my problems. Or 44A being mid also would be nice, or 44K tracking. Really, I'm just annoyed with 80% of her kit being highs.
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3A is, like 60% of Talim's options, a "tempo setter". Or at least, how I use it is. I rarely take the BT AAB followup (32 dmg) and instead do BT 2A (28 dmg), for frame stuff and baits.

The main thing Talim is lacking in, is guaranteed damage. Yes, she hits hard if you make mistakes, but everything she has sets up something else, which sets up something else. So if you're not batting 1000 on your mixups, it's gonna be a long day. Thankfully, her oki game is insanely good. So you can turn things around with one or two good knockdowns.
 
TalimUser said:
Both would be good to know
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Well, you really can't get off the ground with much in Calibur if the opponent knows his oki, lol. But I guess if you have it, CE is your best bet if they do a low/throw on wakeup.

As for Talim's own oki game? Tons of stuff, lol.
3B is great for this. Any combo into 4BB puts them in front of you for 3B/low/throw mixup. 3B can't be GI'd or RE'd here, and if they roll the wrong way or stay grounded they get launched behind you.

You also have 1K/1B for lows. 1K tracks rolls too.
You can also end combos like 66A+B~WNS (B)~WNF K, and then go into B+K stance for WNF K/grab mixup. WNF K catches rolls and you can repeat this till they get up.
 
Some interesting tech trap stuff off of CH Fourbags. Found by Kitsune in the Talim discord.
https://t.co/m4nVPCBQE2

After landing CH 4BaG, doing a BT B+K to hop their corpse grants a free Back throw if they tech to the sides.
If they tech Back you still get the front throw attempt from BT state.
 
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ZeroEffect317 said:
3A is, like 60% of Talim's options, a "tempo setter". Or at least, how I use it is. I rarely take the BT AAB followup (32 dmg) and instead do BT 2A (28 dmg), for frame stuff and baits.

It's not a bad normal, but I still don't use it incredibly often. Though that depends on the player, like everything. If people are stepping a lot, then sure. Mixing up between BT oki and regular oki is something I've been doing a lot of too, so doing BT 2A certainly fits into that.

If nothing else, 3A will continue to make me chuckle when it does this out-of-nowhere launcher against airborne opponents. Cracks me up, it's like she's fanning them into the air.

ZeroEffect317 said:
The main thing Talim is lacking in, is guaranteed damage. Yes, she hits hard if you make mistakes, but everything she has sets up something else, which sets up something else. So if you're not batting 1000 on your mixups, it's gonna be a long day. Thankfully, her oki game is insanely good. So you can turn things around with one or two good knockdowns.
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Her on block punish game is garbage, so I agree. Punishes are the most guaranteed damage route. I would also say she struggles a bit against people who wall, since she has a pretty poop low game. All of her lows turn everything into a scramble, which is alright sometimes, but it can go south as a result too. Besides throws, I tend to find the only way to open someone up is to force them to actually come out of their shell by abusing what I would define as Talim's main draw as a character which is... she gets two turns before the opponent gets one. Using that second turn to bait things out, is how I tend to get by wallers, but it can be a struggle if they are good at defense.

ZeroEffect317 said:
Some interesting tech trap stuff off of CH Fourbags. Found by Kitsune in the Talim discord.
https://t.co/m4nVPCBQE2

After landing CH 4BaG, doing a BT B+K to hop their corpse grants a free Back throw if they tech to the sides.
If they tech Back you still get the front throw attempt from BT state.
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Huh... I could see that being useful against certain opponents for sure.

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Even if 44A's lethal hit blows, I've been getting decent value out of it due to how much range both hits cover. Particularly against characters who like to step around a lot or move backwards a lot (looking at your Groh) -- tends to be useful just for a long sweeping mid. God help them if they get hit by a fully charged 44A(A), cause that is by far Talim's best combo starter without a wall. 120+ for sure, you can even work in that throw mix-up in there if ya wanted to really crank it up more.

Something else I've been doing recently and getting good mileage is just doing raw WNC into it's options. Even if it's bad at stepping, at the proper ranges, it's not a bad option. Tends to catch people by surprise, and the AAB follow-up is counter-hit confirmable, so it's not bad if people are stepping around a lot.
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More of a curious question, but does Talim have the worst ring out game? I'm looking through the character list and I'm having a hard time finding a character I feel rings out worse than her. I don't know much about Tira, so that's the only one I don't for sure. What about Raph?

It's frustrating sometimes. I'm sure you guys understand -- or maybe you know something I don't, but that range where... they're not RIGHT at the very edge, but it's like a step away and it's like... even if you launch them, you can't ring them out. Is there an option there I don't know about? Cause WNS options ring Talim out first, 4BA/(a)/b either gives them air control, knocks them clean to the ground or doesn't go far enough. You would think 66B would ring them out after a launch like that, but nope. It's as funny as it is sad to me that I can be so close to the edge and still not get a ring out on a launch.

Can't think of another character that's like that.

I would love to see my win/loss rate on specific stages. Cause that desert stage -- man... you can get rung out at round start from like 60% of the cast. Hahha... cause man, I back up when I get people to the edge against a good chunk of the cast. Get clipped, and somehow I'm out of bounds, and I'm like... "Dude, I had the WHOLE STAGE behind me!"

I don't know if I find it frustrating or just hilarious, but I feel something, that's for sure.
 
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