Talim vs. the rest of the SC4 cast

CrazyYoshimitsu

CrazyYoshimitsu

[10] Knight
Well as the title explain it. What are Talim good, even, and bad matchups? first off, I'm going to need a lot of help with this matchups stuff. Why? Well, I wanna know when it a good time to go to SK or yoshi when I see someone like klik setup to the plate. But my problem I have no idea whole fuck talim up the ass like crazy. But as a start I think klik, ash, and ivy are bad matchups for Talim because of the range game these characters have over talim. So, please help CY out with his Talim's studying guys.
 
id say one good match up would be maxi. They both are fast as hell and both depend on the close range game to win. Whenever a talim steps up to the plate, i usually have a good match!
 
They are all bad Talim sucks.

I'm just kidding I'm trying to learn Talim and I think the odds are definitly against her.
I think Taki is a very bad match up as her speed essentially negates yours plus she is superior at almost everything.
Thats my two cents
 
these will be my opinions on good vs bad matchups

Bad match ups:
astaroth.....the obvious long range game
ivy.....crazy GI's and long range
Kilik
Yoshi
cervy....he has range, teleport & stun game
yunseoung....stun game, soul gauge game
sisters....just cuz they are a couple of bitches

Good match ups:
Maxi..both equal as far as range, damage and CH punishing
Lizardman
Rock
Tira

I know my list is pretty vauge, i will update and elaborate later!
 
Here is what I would say... matches out of 10... this is how I feel Talim stands up...
( a 5 out of 10, would imply that she would win half the matches... 50% if it were )

  • 0 - Algol... This is just an impossible matchup, and we all know it...
  • 1 - Kilik... This is all dependant on how the Kilik is played. The way most people are playing Kilik, is at close range with Asura Spamming. Talim actually has a GOOD chance against this. However, if the Kilik player learns how to abuse more of his ranged attacks and forgets about Asura completely, then Talim no longer stands a chance. I find it easier to play against SC4 Kilik players who started with SC4, than playing against SC4 Kilik players who play using SC2 tactics.
  • 2.5 - Voldo... Voldo is just broke, he is who I would put as #1 in the tier lists. He has punish game, speed, damage, range, priority, is extremely safe, and an amazing BT A+B that auto-GIs everything. Talim just doesn't stance a chance against a Voldo player who knows what they are doing. His attacks knock Talim out of EVERYTHING, wind leap, wind sault, wind charmer, Voldo stops it all with little to no risk.
  • 3 - Ivy... Just like Kilik, an Ivy player can pretty much throw out 90% of their moves and stick to core spacing game.
  • 3 - Sophitia... This sister isn't as good as the other this time around, but there is one thing she has over Cassandra that still provides enough push against Talim... range. She's got the speed with her range, as well as decent enough tracking to stop Talim's so called "evasive" properties.
  • 3.5 - Lizardman... He's top tier... end of story.
  • 3.5 - Mitsurugi... Against Mitsurugi, all a Talim player can really do is guess. Thats all most characters can do, his nitaku game is just that good. The problem of course, is once Talim guesses right, where does she go from there? She doesn't have the ability to punish that which most people find launchable.
  • 3.5 - Cassandra... Cassie has speed, damage, priority, spacing and nitaku... everything Talim doesn't.
  • 3.5 - Xianghua... Even though what gives Xianghua her advantage over Talim is the same as Raphael's 44B, her 44B is just that much better. Its an instant back-step evade-punish attack that avoids almost all of Talim's options, even in those rare cases where Talim is actually at advantage. She also has a whole slew of other moves that work on Talim as well, so she doesn't have to resort to only 44B... thats just the icing on the cake.
  • 4 - Hilde... Hilde suffers from the same problems against Talim as Astaroth. Even though she clearly has the range advantage, the speed of her ranged attacks nullify many of her options against a Talim player who knows how to abuse Wind Charmer stance. The redeeming factor in all this is simple enough that Hilde's short ranged attacks still have more range than Talim... And if Talim (or any character) eats a single hit, its a free ring out.
  • 4 - Setsuka... She's faster and has more damage. Even though she may be within Talim's range, she simply out-paces her in every aspect.
  • 4 - Taki... Same thing as Setsuka.
  • 4 - Yoshimitsu... Yoshimitsu may be good, but there is nothing Talim-specific that he has to kill her... What he's got works on everybody, not just Talim.
  • 4.5 - Astaroth... Although Astaroth has the same range game as Kilik, he suffers because its simply not as fast. His lack of speed gives Talim a 50% chance to get in. Sure, if the Talim player guesses wrong, then she's fucked... but at least its not a lost cause.
  • 4 .5- Cervantes... Another more even balanced match... maybe its because I haven't really played against any top tier Cervy players. I don't see Cervy having much that trumps Talim; but the simple range advantage puts him over the top. A good think to know, as a Talim player, 6K stops GDR dead in its tracks, with counterhit.
  • 4.5 - Raphael... Raph's 44B is enough to stop almost all of Talim's options. The problem is that Raph doesn't have much more than that; but its enough to give him a slight edge.
  • 4.5 - Siegfried... Siegfried, like Mitsurugi has an amazing Nitaku game, he also has a moderately paced range game. He can't use his range game the same way as Kilik or Ivy, but its enough to give him an extremely slight advantage.
  • 4.5 - Yun-seong... Post 1.03, Yun-seong has dropped down from being potentially broke, to just being your average mid-tier character. Without the stuff he had before the big patch, he really doesn't have anything to provide a significant advantage over Talim. The one thing he does have, is an EXCELLENT punish game, and Talim is very punishable. You'll have an easier time with Talim in this matchup, if you throw out all of your high damage setups from the start... they are all punishable... Even her Wind Leap options can be interrupted with a single B.
  • 5 - Amy... I dont really think Amy has anything on Talim. She's not to fast, although she is very safe; her range is almost as bad as Talim's, so she gets into Talim's optimum range by her own whims.
  • 5 - Maxi... As you guys already hinted at, Talim has a decent time against Maxi. Its no clear advantage, but its not a clear disadvantage either; unlike her other matchups. Just like Amy, Maxi brings himself into Talim's optimum range in order to attack. Without the ability to play true spacing game, Maxi can't come out on top.

I dont know: Nightmare, Rock, Mi-Na, Darth Vader, Yoda, Tira, Zasalamel.

I think you can clearly see what I see as the problem with Talim... range and spacing. There is never a moment were Talim is at her optimal spacing, and the opponent is not. If Talim is at her optimal position, at best, so is the opponent. More often then not, Talim is not at her optimal position, and the opponent is comfortable keeping it that way. Sure, the moves they use to keep her spaced out are unsafe... but Talim doesnt have the range, nor the damage to punish it properly. There are no characters where Talim has a practical advantage over... there are no characters where Talim even has a theoretical advantage over.

And Talim is NOT a fast character... Its just that she doesn't have many moves that are "slow". Almost all her moves rest around that area of "just not fast enough".
 
Jaxel said:
Here is what I would say... matches out of 10... this is how I feel Talim stands up...
( a 5 out of 10, would imply that she would win half the matches... 50% if it were )

  • 0 - Algol... This is just an impossible matchup, and we all know it...
  • 1 - Kilik... This is all dependant on how the Kilik is played. The way most people are playing Kilik, is at close range with Asura Spamming. Talim actually has a GOOD chance against this. However, if the Kilik player learns how to abuse more of his ranged attacks and forgets about Asura completely, then Talim no longer stands a chance. I find it easier to play against SC4 Kilik players who started with SC4, than playing against SC4 Kilik players who play using SC2 tactics.
  • 2.5 - Voldo... Voldo is just broke, he is who I would put as #1 in the tier lists. He has punish game, speed, damage, range, priority, is extremely safe, and an amazing BT A+B that auto-GIs everything. Talim just doesn't stance a chance against a Voldo player who knows what they are doing. His attacks knock Talim out of EVERYTHING, wind leap, wind sault, wind charmer, Voldo stops it all with little to no risk.
  • 3 - Ivy... Just like Kilik, an Ivy player can pretty much throw out 90% of their moves and stick to core spacing game.
  • 3 - Sophitia... This sister isn't as good as the other this time around, but there is one thing she has over Cassandra that still provides enough push against Talim... range. She's got the speed with her range, as well as decent enough tracking to stop Talim's so called "evasive" properties.
  • 3.5 - Lizardman... He's top tier... end of story.
  • 3.5 - Mitsurugi... Against Mitsurugi, all a Talim player can really do is guess. Thats all most characters can do, his nitaku game is just that good. The problem of course, is once Talim guesses right, where does she go from there? She doesn't have the ability to punish that which most people find launchable.
  • 3.5 - Cassandra... Cassie has speed, damage, priority, spacing and nitaku... everything Talim doesn't.
  • 3.5 - Xianghua... Even though what gives Xianghua her advantage over Talim is the same as Raphael's 44B, her 44B is just that much better. Its an instant back-step evade-punish attack that avoids almost all of Talim's options, even in those rare cases where Talim is actually at advantage. She also has a whole slew of other moves that work on Talim as well, so she doesn't have to resort to only 44B... thats just the icing on the cake.
  • 4 - Hilde... Hilde suffers from the same problems against Talim as Astaroth. Even though she clearly has the range advantage, the speed of her ranged attacks nullify many of her options against a Talim player who knows how to abuse Wind Charmer stance. The redeeming factor in all this is simple enough that Hilde's short ranged attacks still have more range than Talim... And if Talim (or any character) eats a single hit, its a free ring out.
  • 4 - Setsuka... She's faster and has more damage. Even though she may be within Talim's range, she simply out-paces her in every aspect.
  • 4 - Taki... Same thing as Setsuka.
  • 4 - Yoshimitsu... Yoshimitsu may be good, but there is nothing Talim-specific that he has to kill her... What he's got works on everybody, not just Talim.
  • 4.5 - Astaroth... Although Astaroth has the same range game as Kilik, he suffers because its simply not as fast. His lack of speed gives Talim a 50% chance to get in. Sure, if the Talim player guesses wrong, then she's fucked... but at least its not a lost cause.
  • 4 .5- Cervantes... Another more even balanced match... maybe its because I haven't really played against any top tier Cervy players. I don't see Cervy having much that trumps Talim; but the simple range advantage puts him over the top. A good think to know, as a Talim player, 6K stops GDR dead in its tracks, with counterhit.
  • 4.5 - Raphael... Raph's 44B is enough to stop almost all of Talim's options. The problem is that Raph doesn't have much more than that; but its enough to give him a slight edge.
  • 4.5 - Siegfried... Siegfried, like Mitsurugi has an amazing Nitaku game, he also has a moderately paced range game. He can't use his range game the same way as Kilik or Ivy, but its enough to give him an extremely slight advantage.
  • 4.5 - Yun-seong... Post 1.03, Yun-seong has dropped down from being potentially broke, to just being your average mid-tier character. Without the stuff he had before the big patch, he really doesn't have anything to provide a significant advantage over Talim. The one thing he does have, is an EXCELLENT punish game, and Talim is very punishable. You'll have an easier time with Talim in this matchup, if you throw out all of your high damage setups from the start... they are all punishable... Even her Wind Leap options can be interrupted with a single B.
  • 5 - Amy... I dont really think Amy has anything on Talim. She's not to fast, although she is very safe; her range is almost as bad as Talim's, so she gets into Talim's optimum range by her own whims.
  • 5 - Maxi... As you guys already hinted at, Talim has a decent time against Maxi. Its no clear advantage, but its not a clear disadvantage either; unlike her other matchups. Just like Amy, Maxi brings himself into Talim's optimum range in order to attack. Without the ability to play true spacing game, Maxi can't come out on top.

I dont know: Nightmare, Rock, Mi-Na, Darth Vader, Yoda, Tira, Zasalamel.

I think you can clearly see what I see as the problem with Talim... range and spacing. There is never a moment were Talim is at her optimal spacing, and the opponent is not. If Talim is at her optimal position, at best, so is the opponent. More often then not, Talim is not at her optimal position, and the opponent is comfortable keeping it that way. Sure, the moves they use to keep her spaced out are unsafe... but Talim doesnt have the range, nor the damage to punish it properly. There are no characters where Talim has a practical advantage over... there are no characters where Talim even has a theoretical advantage over.

And Talim is NOT a fast character... Its just that she doesn't have many moves that are "slow". Almost all her moves rest around that area of "just not fast enough".
Click to expand...

Now that's ballin'. Thanks jaxel!!!!

you earned an Ivy apple for your hard work.
 
Mina's all about range and spacing, so she can prolly give Talim some hell if she's played properly. Furthermore, I don't believe Talim doesn't have a lot of punishers. She's basically a faster, less powerful Asty with worse throws. Talim could prolly TJ Mina's lows, but I don't think she can punish them from a distance (Which is where she'll be throwing them out).
 
So how do you guys think Talim fares against Nightmare? I fought a NM player in the last tourney I was in, and while he was good enough to beat me, I didn't feel like he overwhelmed me at all, and that if I didn't overlook some basic stuff. (break B when facing the edge and A when my back's to it, etc...) I'm sure I could've won.

This was my first NM match offline so I wasn't sure exactly how dangerous or not the match up actually is. Any opinions?
 
Nighty moves slower but he's got some mean combos.

Ya, if you do things right you can beat him.
 
This is true. Though I would imagine this could apply to any character, that if you did things right against them you can win. Now, Jaxel already gave his opinion on most of the cast's success rate against Talim, but NM (along with a few others) wasn't listed his, or anyone else's posts. I'm just curious as to whether or not anyone has any valuable experience against offline Nightmares, and can give a ballpark estimate of how favorable (or not) the matchup is for Talim.
 
It also matters on the skillz of the other playa.

I've seen some real good Nighty's and Sig's that are gonna beat me a lot more than I'll beat them.

All bein even- Talim's gotta keep up the pressure, use her speed, GIs (know the other character's combos), throw breaks and know when to break in. (Ya, also true against other characters)

Sig seems tougher (to me) cause he's got more speed.

Guess I don't worry too much about the match up (or even the stage).

Just do my best.
 
Yeah. I'm just like you, in that I don't focus too much on the match up when I'm fighting someone. And you're right, the other player's skills are a big factor as well. I just thought it'd be interesting to see what people thought.

I think Sieg is tougher for me as well, but I've had more experience fighting him than Nightmare offline, so I can't say for sure yet.
 
Okay new question, what are the worst matchups for you guys? We've already mentioned a few of the matchups that were bad for Talim, but I'm curious to know from the players' perspectives here which characters tend to give y'all the most trouble.

For me, currently I have the most problems with Ivy, Hilde, and Setsuka. Setsuka I think I'll learn how to fight against with time, since I don't feel completely overwhelmed by her. But for good Ivys and Hildes... I just don't have any idea where to begin.

Especially Ivy. A lot of her Sword stance moves just stop Talim's offense cold. Particularly 6 which gives a shakeable stun, but still hurts. She's got the Coil A+B mixup as well which can either stun you for good damage, or if canceled, can lead into iCS throw. The only thing I know to stop her with is that if I block Venom Lash (Coil 214), Talim can beat out all of Ivy's followups from Serpent's Embrace with a CH 4BB. Other than that, not sure. If the player doesn't use Venom Lash much then it makes it that much worse for me. I'm starting to place her above Hilde in my least preferred matchup column.

I used to have a lot of problems with Voldo, but since I'm more familiar with his style now, fighting good Voldo players isn't overwhelming to me anymore. I'm kinda getting more comfortable fighting against Taki as well.

How about you guys? If you all have any Ivy experience any help would be appreciated.
 
Kilik, in particular, is the character that I usually have the most problems with. If I can get up close to him, then I have little to worry about, but when he's got some space to do shit to keep me away from him, that's when I start to have trouble.

Normally I would just side-step my opponent's attacks to get closer to them, but with Kilik and his 20ft long pole and his horizontal swings, side-stepping is basically useless. :(
 
Yeah Kilik can be a pain too, actually. I can play Kilik fairly well so I know what he's capable of, but unfortunately I haven't faced any good Kiliks to have much experience fighting him. The only good Kilik player I've played is Shadowfox, and I only played him twice.

Talim's short range really hurts her here because a lot of Kilik's more unsafe moves push her back to far to punish him. thus making them safe on block. GI-ing is crucial here to get in and stay in, because his horizontals are that good. WC negates Kilik's 214B though so that kind of helps. you can get a free 236B from blocking his grounded A+K or the last hit of his 22_88AAA, but most good Kiliks refrain from using those.

Sorry I can't be of more help, I just lack vs Kilik experience.
 
Interesting discussion... I'd like to know how you guys choose to close the gap too. It's annoying how some characters like Ivy can send you so far across the screen. It's easy to say "don't get yourself into those situations", but it happens...

Frankly, I'm hopeless against horizontal swinging Kilik, so I can't help much there. As for others, I usually end up doing one of these:
1. Slowly walk across.
2. Side step + (WC >) AS A+B (the end of AS A+B should JUST reach Ivy, but it requires precise timing... if your opponent moves backwards, either chuck in a AS B+K before AS A+B, although it becomes very unsafe, or leave it after AS then either WL>AS A+B as your opponent attacks... or just block).
3. Lure opponent in with a fake WC/AS/WL, yeah... it doesn't work all that well.
4. Run in, get hit, and be smart with your tech rolls.

#4 being my usual choice... Yeah.. I die a lot lol... I guess the thing with Talim is that once she gets in close, she can inflict some hefty damage (circumstantial of course), so I don't really mind taking the initial hit for as long as what I deal afterwards is worth it.

What do you guys do?
 
Well for me I use.....

As K whiff. Why? A very good move for defense.

1B~8_2 Why? Decnt movement, and a good way around the guy.

Block like a litte bitch.

that all from me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back