Syn_SC
[10] Knight
I would create a 'Please perma-ban DEX from this site' thread, but I'd hate to think I was giving him attention.
Ignore button exists peeps!
Ignore button exists peeps!
The Great Player Vs Character Debate: SCV Edition
- Thread starter Ooofmatic
- Start date
- Moderator
- #62
TwistedAsura
The Wanderer
The fact that you are spoiler tagging things puts a tear of joy in my eye.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
Don't get your hopes up. I still think you should be persecuting stupid people, especially people who shit on people who create and contribute, but this is out of respect for the actual good discussion going on in here and the people involved.
Inori DWF
[10] Knight
- Moderator
- #65
TwistedAsura
The Wanderer
Ah. But they have cut down on what S.Mods can do. We are only give infractions and no bans/heavy punishment haha. And while I can give infractions even being the way he is these days he is not being nearly as bad as he used to be. It is not punishment worthy. He is keeping to the discussion and no longer making "Dumb" threads frequently. :). But I do thank you on trying to keep the discussion.
If you wish to respond to this please do so on my profile as I do not wish to clutter the thread any further.
Just for reference straight picture/gif posts with no text are generally frowned upon :( Doing this too frequently can lead to an infraction.(Just giving you a heads up. Trying to keep people out of trouble in the future haha.) If you have any questions concerns on this matter feel free to contact me on my profile.
Inori DWF
[10] Knight
Since when did "frown upon" mean "against the rules"? This topic is leading to no where but ego inflation anyways. It should have been locked the moment you read the title.
Death_Emperor_X
[10] Knight
Debating is good though, w/o'em 8wr wouldn't get anywhere.
- Moderator
- #68
Gatsu
[14] Master
Imho at low-mid level is all about the player, you can basically ignore teh tier list
But when the level of players goes higher, and player start show char strenght's and/or know how to exploit opponent's weakness taking advantage from the match up, characters become an huge factor
Even without be SC gods, at some level of play and match up knowledge (where take advantage, what fear, what and how punish etc) if the opponent got a very good char, you need a very good char too
Not mandatory have it totally equal or better in most peoples tier list, but at least have not an huge gap
If you play against a good player and char that know the match up, use a low tier -no matter how well you use it- is like run with iron shoes, you may still win, but you need to run twice fast
But when the level of players goes higher, and player start show char strenght's and/or know how to exploit opponent's weakness taking advantage from the match up, characters become an huge factor
Even without be SC gods, at some level of play and match up knowledge (where take advantage, what fear, what and how punish etc) if the opponent got a very good char, you need a very good char too
Not mandatory have it totally equal or better in most peoples tier list, but at least have not an huge gap
If you play against a good player and char that know the match up, use a low tier -no matter how well you use it- is like run with iron shoes, you may still win, but you need to run twice fast
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
^Running with iron shoes is exactly how I felt about the sc4 Sieg Vs Ivy matchup for Sieg.
I used to have a good friend local who was near my level of SC, before sc5 came out. He started off with NM, and me Sieg. It didn't take him very long to give me a run for my money, and it became very stressful to beat him.
Anyways, he got frustrated with losing consistently, and switched to Ivy. On his day 3 or 4 Ivy, I couldn't beat him anymore. He just stuffed and countered everything I did. I was literally reduced to turtling, grabbing, 1k's, and not much else.
This guy was exceptionally brilliant with natural talent. I had a huge edge in experience, though. I give the guy mad props for learning so fast.
So what did I do? I learned Cassandra. It quickly became apparent that she was a higher tier than Sieg. It took about a week before the tables completely turned around and now HE couldn't beat me anymore. He was particularly salty over 236B wall spam, which I'm not even sure was best thing I could do in that situation, but it still annoyed him and I felt like a whore doing it.
Anyways, the point of my post is to show that characters do matter, even at a non-high level play. To be fair, I would rate my current skill at the mid level.
The good news is that in sc5, I never once felt like any match-up is bad enough to make me bash my head against the wall, like I did in sc4.
Man, I REALLY need to find some local players. I was fortunate enough to meet up with someone from 8wr about 3 months ago, but he god bodied pretty bad and it wasn't fun for either of us. I think the final score of the night was something like 50-8 in my favor. At first he was winning because I wasn't familiar with the match-up (He used Leixia and Maxi) and his crazy aggressive style. He hit a major snag when I adapted to him and started to turtle and space him. After that it was almost like he couldn't adapt. He kept trying to go for the same setups, mixups and tech traps, and if you can accurately predict your opponent Sieg becomes a strong character, since he's so Yomi centered.
Damn, I just went waaay off topic. See what happens when you smoke weed?
I used to have a good friend local who was near my level of SC, before sc5 came out. He started off with NM, and me Sieg. It didn't take him very long to give me a run for my money, and it became very stressful to beat him.
Anyways, he got frustrated with losing consistently, and switched to Ivy. On his day 3 or 4 Ivy, I couldn't beat him anymore. He just stuffed and countered everything I did. I was literally reduced to turtling, grabbing, 1k's, and not much else.
This guy was exceptionally brilliant with natural talent. I had a huge edge in experience, though. I give the guy mad props for learning so fast.
So what did I do? I learned Cassandra. It quickly became apparent that she was a higher tier than Sieg. It took about a week before the tables completely turned around and now HE couldn't beat me anymore. He was particularly salty over 236B wall spam, which I'm not even sure was best thing I could do in that situation, but it still annoyed him and I felt like a whore doing it.
Anyways, the point of my post is to show that characters do matter, even at a non-high level play. To be fair, I would rate my current skill at the mid level.
The good news is that in sc5, I never once felt like any match-up is bad enough to make me bash my head against the wall, like I did in sc4.
Man, I REALLY need to find some local players. I was fortunate enough to meet up with someone from 8wr about 3 months ago, but he god bodied pretty bad and it wasn't fun for either of us. I think the final score of the night was something like 50-8 in my favor. At first he was winning because I wasn't familiar with the match-up (He used Leixia and Maxi) and his crazy aggressive style. He hit a major snag when I adapted to him and started to turtle and space him. After that it was almost like he couldn't adapt. He kept trying to go for the same setups, mixups and tech traps, and if you can accurately predict your opponent Sieg becomes a strong character, since he's so Yomi centered.
Damn, I just went waaay off topic. See what happens when you smoke weed?
- Moderator
- #70
TwistedAsura
The Wanderer
Well it was me saying its against the rules to do it to much in a nicer way. We really dont want people just posting gifs like popcorn.gif and other ones that are well...Not needed since people had been posting way too many gifs without text.Feel free to post a gif with text though :D!
And this thread was started by a long time member who has brought up some good discussion on the topic. I am watching the thread and the conversation in here is actually good for the most part. I had also asked you to contact me via profile T.T
Wander
[09] Warrior
60% player, 40% character/match-up
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
This debate has some similarities with the classic nature/nurture debate.
I see the character as equivalent to the inherent inborn nature of genetics. They are a pre-set design, that is unchanging, both the character and your DNA. The strengths and weaknesses of said unchanging design define it's role and placement in the food chain, or tiers/match-ups for the character.
The nurture is equivalent to the time and effort we put into cognitive learning of said character. It represents the player in the entirety of his/her knowledge and skills. In the sense of SC, we nurture the character with the knowledge we acquire about the game. We let them shine. Just as a newborn infant, who is born with natural instincts due to inherent DNA design, but throughout this person's life they must acquire more and more knowledge, training or teachings.
Human beings by nature rely less on natural born instincts and more on acquired learning. This is why it takes at least 18 years in most societies for people to be considered an adult. When we're born, we can't walk, talk, wipe our own ass, or even have coherent thoughts. We literally have to learn how to do virtually everything.
Pretty much all animals on the other hand are born much more capable and self sufficient than us. Or in other words, they are born with stronger instincts and can rely on that more, with some minimal learning.
It's interesting to note that some of the smartest animals on earth (Greater Apes, Dolfins, Elephants) commonly share this trait of long periods of learning before the young can be self sufficient.
So in the end, both are absolutely necessary (Nature/Character VS Nurture/player) for success.
I see the character as equivalent to the inherent inborn nature of genetics. They are a pre-set design, that is unchanging, both the character and your DNA. The strengths and weaknesses of said unchanging design define it's role and placement in the food chain, or tiers/match-ups for the character.
The nurture is equivalent to the time and effort we put into cognitive learning of said character. It represents the player in the entirety of his/her knowledge and skills. In the sense of SC, we nurture the character with the knowledge we acquire about the game. We let them shine. Just as a newborn infant, who is born with natural instincts due to inherent DNA design, but throughout this person's life they must acquire more and more knowledge, training or teachings.
Human beings by nature rely less on natural born instincts and more on acquired learning. This is why it takes at least 18 years in most societies for people to be considered an adult. When we're born, we can't walk, talk, wipe our own ass, or even have coherent thoughts. We literally have to learn how to do virtually everything.
Pretty much all animals on the other hand are born much more capable and self sufficient than us. Or in other words, they are born with stronger instincts and can rely on that more, with some minimal learning.
It's interesting to note that some of the smartest animals on earth (Greater Apes, Dolfins, Elephants) commonly share this trait of long periods of learning before the young can be self sufficient.
So in the end, both are absolutely necessary (Nature/Character VS Nurture/player) for success.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
Depends on who you mean.
There are certainly high level players who have hit that point, but not the entire community.
- Moderator
- #75
UnseenWombat
[14] Master
I agree with Gatsu, but sometimes you get strange things happening like Decopon winning with Tira. I guess you could account for those situations by saying that the community misjudged a character's tier placing though. IDK. I guess over long term, when the tiers are more firmly established and all the tricks are known, those situations won't come up.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
To be fair, it wasn't "the community" that misjudged her, it was online players who had no real world XP in a caustic echo chamber known as the Tira Forum. Good players knew damn well otherwise- well before EVO, Something-Unique was remarking on how the best JPN player was a Tira player and going over some of her good stuff. Nobody on the boards seemed to notice because their heads were firmly up their ass. Similar situations occurred with Nightmare, too.
- Moderator
- #77
Malice
Super Moderator
You need to be playing offline to be better. Bottom line.
Wander
[09] Warrior
It's really simple. Indeed, someone who doesn't play in tournaments could theoretically be a better player than someone who plays (and places) in tournaments, but it makes no difference until the non-tournament player actually goes to prove his skill by beating those proven players at an event. You can't be the best until you've beaten the best.
JDub
Mmm. Pie.
My brother used to really be obsessed with the opinions of others and wanting to manipulate those opinions. He had control issues. Turned out, he wanted a vagina. Now that he's accepted himself as a she there's less confrontation. Not saying anyone here is trans-gendered. Just saying that sometimes people focus on outer issues to distract themselves from the inner ones.
In order:
1. Player
2. Character
3. Luck
In order:
1. Player
2. Character
3. Luck
Pyrrus
[14] Master
I think it depends on the player and how much experience/skill and knowledge on the match-ups, frames,etc that person has.
However just because you know match-ups or frames doesn't mean your opponent won't know them. I suppose this is where a match-up counts. For example, Pyrrha O vs Nightmare. From what I hear this match-up is in Omega's favor, so while both players maybe very good, the omega player would have a slight advantage.
So in the end it depends on two things. 1.player knowledge/experience and 2. Match-Ups.
However just because you know match-ups or frames doesn't mean your opponent won't know them. I suppose this is where a match-up counts. For example, Pyrrha O vs Nightmare. From what I hear this match-up is in Omega's favor, so while both players maybe very good, the omega player would have a slight advantage.
So in the end it depends on two things. 1.player knowledge/experience and 2. Match-Ups.