the problem with sc...

[BlackDragon37]

There is a lot of underestimating casual audiences going on here. Patting yourselves on the back while trying to figure out the best patronization strategy to bring in new blood isn't very useful for anyone. Seriously, did you see how big the made Ivy's boobies? Bamco already did their part for the casual gamer. I think everyone should stop trying to figure out the have-nots of the fighting game world and focus one what they, personally, want out of the game.

Any time someone starts claiming to worry about a group they even don't belong to rather than what they want, my bullshit meter goes off the f'n charts. I get enough of that in all the ban so-and-so threads.

My problem with 3D fighting games this generation in particular is that there has been a lack of comprise between the casual and hardcore elements and then filling them up to the brim.

This generation, DOA went casual, forgetting its hardcore audience.

This generation, Tekken went casual, forgetting its hardcore audience.

This generation, Virtua Fighter went hardcore, forgetting the amount of potential it could get in bringing in a casual audience simply by making the game flashier (without sacrificing its depth) and adding a story mode.

This generation, Soul Calibur had both the casual and hardcore elements there. But it feels like Project Soul just took what they had and buried it in the ground instead of doing much much more.

There hasn't been much done this generation because mans haven't been ambitious. And I feel like this stagnancy is getting worse.

 

[TCS_Yagami_Dark]

Oh I'm sorry. I thought there was talk of matches looking stiff.

No apologies necessary, there was talk about matches being stiff.
Again, why should I be using the newbie/casual perspective? Was the overtone not hardcore??

Virtua Fighter's an offensive fighting game.

Tekken's an offensive game (unless stepping's also been individualised).

Dead Or Alive's an offensive game.

Why are they offensive games? Because their defensive techniques haven't been individualised. Amazing how the series critically acclaimed to have the deepest systems (i.e. VF) is in that group. And last I heard, it has the most difficulty in drawing new crowds.

And you're questioning me on how to change a fighting game "based on the whims for newbs"?

I'm not questioning you on anything you didn't say yourself. This is what you said, is it not?

If you're gonna talk about watching matches, think about it from a casual/newbie perspective, not a hardcore perspective. Reason being that the hardcore can see the advance stuff in a match by looking at the in betweens, while the casual person can only look at it from face value.

Last I remembered, the casual audience favoured watching Tekken's matches over SC's (though this may have changed over time, so I could be wrong).

So first, the casual audience loves a game for being offense-based i.e. Tekken.

Then one post later you say that casual gamers aren't being attracted to a game that has been critically acclaimed to have the deepest offensive fighting system out there.

To be honest, I don't know what you're saying anymore.

I really just wanted to know why I should've been looking at this from a casual/newbie perspective as you told me I should earlier. We're all hardcore gamers here whether we want to admit it or not. If you register for an account at a website devoted to a specific gaming series and weigh-in with your opinion with any sort of regularity, you are a hardcore gamer, and at the very least, an enthusiast.

Why should I look at it from a casual/newbie perspective? Are you talking about improving the game's marketability or technical balance?

 

[BlackDragon37]

So first, the casual audience loves a game for being offense-based i.e. Tekken.

Then one post later you say that casual gamers aren't being attracted to a game that has been critically acclaimed to have the deepest offensive fighting system out there.

I brought up VF because I thought you were implying that offensive games aren't deep and/or strategic. This may have been a mistake on my part. My apologies if it saw it wrongly.

I really just wanted to know why I should've been looking at this from a casual/newbie perspective as you told me I should earlier. We're all hardcore gamers here whether we want to admit it or not. If you register for an account at a website devoted to a specific gaming series and weigh-in with your opinion with any sort of regularity, you are a hardcore gamer, and at the very least, an enthusiast.

Why should I look at it from a casual/newbie perspective?

I try to see the perspectives of both the casual and hardcore when watching (3D fighting game) matches, and try to see what can be done to casual elements to make it more attractive to the casual audience without sacrificing the hardcore elements.

What I said about seeing it from a casual perspective and not seeing it from a hardcore perspective was a big mistake on my part. I didn't see it until you brought it up. :)

 

[IgnisPhaseOne]

Guys...audience likes flashy games. IMO, SC4 is one of the flashiest games out there, there's people using weapons.

That's nothing compared to someone using a guitar vs. someone using their HAIR, with bright flashes appearing every hit and a hit counter telling you how high your combo is.

Guilty Gear/BlazBlue are flashy. They're fun to watch, the animation kicks ass, and there's special effects up the ass. There's a ton of numbers, a ton of different meters changing all the time, there's cancels etc blah blah OMG IT'S AN OVERLOAD WOOOOO.

There's a lot of technical discussions here, and IMO you can't have a "techincal" discussion about problems when comparing to other games. Seriously, they're different fighting systems, and I'm pretty sure that there's fans/haters on both sides. Why pander to any of them? They're not open to changing their minds if they've already picked a side.

To a casual audience, a group of people who don't know any of the underlying mechanics, I'm going to assume that the order would be something like this:
--BB, GG, MVC2, SC4, Tekken, VF5, SF2.

To an audience that understands ALL THE INTRICACIES of whatever game they're watching, it probably goes like this:
--VF5, SF2, Tekken, SC4, BB, MVC2, GG.

 

[ShinobiBrown]

To a casual audience, a group of people who don't know any of the underlying mechanics, I'm going to assume that the order would be something like this:
--MVC2, SF2, GG, BB, Tekken, SC4, VF5.

Fix'd to suit my opinion; el oh el

As far as casual eye goes, this is how I see the appeal:

Marvel would be the most appealing due to the load of iconic characters.

Right behind is SF2 because it's a classic to both the casual and non casual.

Next up is Guilty Gear for the crazy character designs, crazy flashes, rock music, and every hit sounding like an explosion.

Then it's BlazBlue as it has all GG has, minus the amount of craziness in the character design and the amount of metal in the rock.

Then Tekken comes in. Juggle combos galore and booming techno tracks. Not to mention every hit sounds like it breaks something vital.

Near the end is SCIV. It's shiny. Very shiny. You also have the clothing ripage and the shiny effects of GIs and warbles.

At the very end is VF5. There is nothing shiny about this game. Although the dialogue of the characters brings great lulz.

 

[IgnisPhaseOne]

OK, suit yourself. :D

My point is that we're having the wrong discussion. It's obvious people have already taken sides; don't try to convince them, and try to convince EVERYONE ELSE, the casuals watching us play, the people spectating.

If you pick a game to get good at, chances are if you want to get anywhere near competitive you'll learn some cool tricks that are a staple of competitive play, making the game deeper and more important.

Stop calling each other out guys, I'd like to think that every game is competitive on some technical and complex level. You're not arguing that SC4 isn't technical/complex within the scope of its own mechanics, are you? Within the scope of other mechanics, maybe, but that's the reason SC4 characters and players aren't playing against VF5 characters within their own system.

 

[KingAce]

Flashyness
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=f0DAmvKbol8

Step

 

[BLDave]

first of all, i know 2a+b, 2b+k is a combo jackass, i was talking about how he hit you with the 3ba immediately after you got up from getting hit from that two times in two matches in the same exact fashion. it was just a perfect example of how i previously stated "hey, people fall into tedium and they tend to do the same exact things over and over again".

i dont understand what you're trying to say here, jackass. you seem like a smart enough guy, but if you cant understand this then i might be wrong. let me break it down for ya. I get hit with 2A+B, which combos into 2B+K. then, on wakeup, he runs up and does 3B,A. You see, its a mixup. He has advantage, so he could either do a move to catch step (like a throw) or mix it up between a mid and a low. I chose to duck and block, being i dont like to throw out random steps on wakeup, and i also feared for a low or throw attempt. but thats just me choosing wrong. Him, being wise to my duck and block shenanigans, chose to do a quick mid (3b,a) which again floors me. Its a pretty standard mixup on knockdown, and truthfully, im surprised it didnt happen MORE often, because im very prone to low block on wakeup. If you think thats tedium, then i dont know what to tell you, because mixups like this are what a good portion of this game is based around. Its like calling an Asteroth player tedious for using B command grab into 22_88B a few times per match, so bad example on your part.

how many 2k's to ws b's did you do? how about the 2a to asura that you did twice in a row (and even did one more time at the end of the match)? they are perfect examples of what i brought up earlier in the thread.

again, let me educate you. 2k is a quick low poke, and Kiliks happens to have some decent range. In fact its range is PERFECT. It leaves you close enough so that people think they can fire back at you and be in range, which they normally are. Now throw WS B into that equation and we have a LOT of people whiffing an attack and eating WS B, 66B, wakeup. Its a pretty solid strat. it also starts from a quick low poke, and unless people start expecting the WS B and stepping it, ill keep doing it all day, because WS B pushes out quite a bit on block and also keeps that guard damage coming.
Its a very similar story with 2a into asura. 2A doesnt knock down, and doesnt give kilik much if any advantage on hit. This again, makes it perfect for people who like to fire right back at him, because anyone who does with a mid or a low is going to eat 69 damage.
These are two strong baits, and if you dont see why someone would keep doing them, at the very least until they stop working, then no explanation i'm willing to type is enough help for you.

oh, and the ro game, no shit that people pay attention to that given that it's an instant loss (ahem, was ro even an issue in the 2nd match?). that's not what the point of this thread was. i'm asking how many moves did you fucking sidestep? please count them for me... neither of you sidestepped much of anything, and that's the point i'm making: "sc4 is STIFF".

see, youre going on all half cocked (half corked as well maybe? lol) again. The reason either one of us didnt do to much stepping, is simply we didnt think we should. Had i kept throwing out slow and obvious verts, and not making use of my horizontals, then im sure he would have stepped around me all day. I cant REALLY speak for him, but as for me, stepping versus Hilde can be just as dangerous as NOT stepping. If you anticipate a Charge B move and step, you had better make sure you stepped the right way AND that the Hilde player doesnt read you and throw out a charge A move. because if either happen, its game over son. Please tell me you can see why that might be a bit dangerous. But if you look past the 'no moves got stepped, hic' youll see that BOTH players in the vid were making very good use of positioning and movement. Anytime I got knocked down, or had a free moment to breathe i tried to make sure that my back was pointing towards the middle of the stage, and he did the exact opposite to maximize his ring out chances. Thats proof positive of very fluid movement. Can you imagine if SC had tekken like movement? no ammount of upside down hyper reverse wave dashing is going to save me when i cant get my ass away from the edge of the ring.

see?! all you stupid fucks keep posting in this thread and you're not making a fucking point. all you're doing is saying "omg tribal you're an idiot," but you do absolutely nothing in explaining how i'm so wrong. i keep asking the same fucking questions and you're not even close to answering them, you post something completely unrelated as if i was even talking about "ro's" or "ducking throws". you're just as ignorant and bad as cha cha, because both of you not only completely missed the point, but you're acting like you know what you're talking about.

I consider being called as 'ignorant' and 'bad' as Cha a fucking compliment. I bet that a LOT of people on these forums feel the same way, being he has time and time again proven himself to be a great player as well as VERY knowledgeable (but he touches boys)

In fact the only time i have ever really seen him get angry is to total ass hats, who STRONGLY come across as scrubs, but try to tell people who really DO know what theyre talking bout that they're wrong.

 

[tribaL]

In fact the only time i have ever really seen him get angry is to total ass hats, who STRONGLY come across as scrubs, but try to tell people who really DO know what theyre talking bout that they're wrong.

i'm at work, so i can't really break-down too much of your post. i will say shortly for the time being: if you read cha's post you'd know he completely misconstrued everything that i brought up. he thought i had said that all the characters in the game can be played the same exact way (ie: essentially that maxi and asty are the same characters) when that wasn't anywhere near what i was saying and he went on a rant based off of that. maybe you should have read his post, and my rebuttal, before saying this.

here, take a look... http://www.8wayrun.com/f21/the-problem-with-sc-t2080/post48992.html

also, dave, you were at a sc3 tournament that i took 2nd place in, where i got beat pretty soundly by crow in the finals. up until that point i hadn't lost a match. obviously, i was not a scrub then, so why would you think i am now? do you think i magically forgot how to play the game from that time? like i said, though, i'll get to your other points later when i'm not busy, i just had to address that because i thought that we were cool to some extent. of course, i thuoght i was with cha, too, apparently i was wrong.

 

[BLDave]

i'm at work, so i can't really break-down too much of your post. i will say shortly for the time being: if you read cha's post you'd know he completely misconstrued everything that i brought up. he thought i had said that all the characters in the game can be played the same exact way (ie: essentially that maxi and asty are the same characters) when that wasn't anywhere near what i was saying and he went on a rant based off of that. maybe you should have read his post, and my rebuttal, before saying this.

here, take a look... http://www.8wayrun.com/f21/the-problem-with-sc-t2080/post48992.html

I actually read your original, his response, and your response in turn. I even read it AGAIN just now, just to double sure that my original opinion was, in fact, an informed one.

I take it as thus. You made some claims, and came off as a bit of a douche. I know that may not have been your intention, but that's what you did.
Cha responded to you point by point, and even listed a whole bunch of ways that SC has fluid, unique and varied SPECIFICALLY movement based options.

In your reply, you said


firstly, i was talking about movement, not actual attacks that evade. the best example i can give is x's 66a+b~g. that was a cancel that actually turns into a kind of movement. i also addressed the point of characters having these options, but rarely are they used as they have effective enough options that don't require them being used. yoshi is the only example that i'll agree with in that he can be played very uniquely.

this has nothing to do with more than half the list he posted. You completely ignored his point, which is pretty convenient being it blows your point about a lack of movement options away, and STILL insist that no one answered your points.

 

[BLDave]

also, dave, you were at a sc3 tournament that i took 2nd place in, where i got beat pretty soundly by crow in the finals. up until that point i hadn't lost a match. obviously, i was not a scrub then, so why would you think i am now? do you think i magically forgot how to play the game from that time? like i said, though, i'll get to your other points later when i'm not busy, i just had to address that because i thought that we were cool to some extent. of course, i thuoght i was with cha, too, apparently i was wrong.

You took 2nd in one michigan (lol) tourney that was within the first month of a new SC game comming out that was RADICALLY different from sc2. Quite frankly, no one knew anything about anything at that tourney. I dont even think I was playing kilik yet, and i switched to him PRETTY fast in sc3.

Then, i wouldn't have called you a scrub. You had a decent game and you weren't getting your wins entirely based on people not knowing what the fuck setsuka could do, but do not delude yourself into believing that had nothing to do with it. I also do not think you magically forgot how to play a game on a 'pro' level. Once a person makes the jump to that mindset, its pretty hard to not look at ANY game in the same light again.

however the things you have posted in this thread make me question what the hell you are thinking. You're making claims that a GOOD portion of the high level community would just scoff at and judge as not even worth wasting the time answering, the posts of a scrub. (im not calling you one, but its true that i could hardly believe it was YOU making this thread.) Even when someone tries to PROVE to you a point with specific examples, you brushed it aside without even a direct comment, again, thats a bit scrubby.

Also, I think we are cool, and if you decide to have a problem with me, its totally on your shoulders. I have no problem with you, other than a few things which are totally confined to this thread.

I see you
1. start off insulting in your very first post and kept up the insulting tone in EVERY SINGLE POST except for this very last post. I am not the first person to mention this. go back and read. a few people call you out for sounding like a jerk.

2. Make very specific mention of what you think the problem is, and then completely ignore the cold hard facts when they are presented to you.

3. bring up my match vids, and attempt to pick them apart, using two examples that have almost nothing to do with your original point.

so why should i feel some sort of obligation to be polite and happy cheery buddy buddy with you, when you've already made me not want to be? Not to mention, that i believe you were COMPLETELY off base with your original post and point.

 

[coth_x]

Just to throw this out there, but too much stepping gives your opponent a CH. So move when you have to, but patience can be very powerful.

 

[ShenOu]

tribaL : I pretty much agree with what BLDave has said.
Personally it looks to me like you wanted people to agree with your opinion, or discuss it.
Instead everyone told you that you weren't making sense, you raged, and you haven't been able to get back on track since.

Calm down, read BLDave's reply slowly and carefully instead of pushing it aside and telling everyone to read YOUR posts instead. Like mentioned earlier.. your opening post is practically a "No offense but fuck you" to every Soul Calibur fan... and you posted it in a Soul Calibur fansite.. to not expect this kind of response in this thread is foolish to say the least.

From an outsider's point of view this is simply a clash in opinion, and unfortunately for you, your opinion is the minority here.. Either you learn to accept what everyone else is saying, or you just ignore everything completely. In the meantime, please stop abusing the word "fuck" like it was a punctuation. A lot of good and/or interesting reasonings have been brought up by various players in this thread (Yourself included a couple of times) and it'll be a waste for it to be closed and deleted because it turned into a flamey ragefest (which it has).

I also do not think you magically forgot how to play a game on a 'pro' level. Once a person makes the jump to that mindset, its pretty hard to not look at ANY game in the same light again.

Lol... I wish i could go back to being a "casual" player again... Gaming is too much work now :P

 

[tribaL]

In your reply, you said

firstly, i was talking about movement, not actual attacks that evade. the best example i can give is x's 66a+b~g. that was a cancel that actually turns into a kind of movement. i also addressed the point of characters having these options, but rarely are they used as they have effective enough options that don't require them being used. yoshi is the only example that i'll agree with in that he can be played very uniquely.

this has nothing to do with more than half the list he posted. You completely ignored his point, which is pretty convenient being it blows your point about a lack of movement options away, and STILL insist that no one answered your points.

ah, touche!

however, the other point i made in my original post was that:

in turn, everyone tends to play the characters essentially the same way. at that point the only differentiation comes in overall utilization and defense.

and

surprisingly there aren't too many of these options in sc. yea, soph has double angel step, and characters like voldo and yoshi have other options that they can use, but very seldom are they ever really used all that much. why? simply because it's not necessary.

i see now that i wasn't very clear (caught up in the heat of the moment):

my first point: characters have these options to use different stances, the problem i see is that they are either hardly used at all (for one reason or another, either the character doesn't need it or it's not efficient enough) or they're used by everyone the same exact way and it kills differentiation.

example: sieg, almost every single sieg uses the same exact srsh "dash" into either the k or the b, both of which have stun followups. i get it... it's effective, so people use it. that's fine. but because of the stiffness in movement in sc4, everyone sets it up the same way through the same moves. actually, i find sieg to be the biggest offender of this mostly because i find that players use essentially the same things to get into the same stances to force the same mixups.

another example: yoshi's drg, often i see people (myself included) only really uses this for the b_k mixup on wake-ups.

kilik: bp a and b is also all too often used only for wake-ups. again i get that it's effective for okizeme, but it always the same 50/50.

lizzy: omg, all i ever see is crwl a and mixups from there. even oof can be seen abusing this in the finals against wingzero. again, yea it works, but i wish there were more ways of using it.

maxi: well, let's face it, he kind of got boned. you aren't going to see too many people use anything outside of a few basic moves to get into his loops (bye bye aa's and bb's, hello 66b4g, 33_99bA, 4bb [i know these moves were used before, but their frequency has increased given that his other options got a little screwed over]).

now, on the other side of the coin, some characters have these stances, but rarely do they ever really need to use them.

voldo: face it, this guy is solid even without cr or mc (which is sad because mc was something that i really like seeing implemented, and so many people did it so well [aris, jayshadow]). one could argue bs is it's own separate stance, but i don't really consider that a stance so much so as an extension of his regular movelist. usually stances has some sort of property change, aside from being able to get bt thrown, voldo himself is essentially playing the same exact way (even some of his moves are the same).

yoshi: although i see the most variation in play from yoshi players, this is another character that can be played effectively without using a single stance. his basic movelist is sound and solid.

X: i think the stance is called SXS? you have to "stock" it in order for it to get useful, and even then i don't see many people implementing it well. i'd be interesting in playing against someone that does.

soph: very rarely do i ever find a need to be in angel step. sometimes i get lucky and i tech crouch something, but really all you need angel step for is a buffer to get 236236b faster. that move being amazing for so many reasons.

an addendum to this first point:

people tend to use the same moves with the same characters from the basic movelists as well. this makes sense because all the characters have moves that are better than others. all fighting games are guilty of this, but the fact that sc4 feels so stiff is why i'm starting to see is people essentially playing the same exact way.

dave: btw, that was the point i was trying to make about 2a_2k. i wasn't giving you crap about using it. it's a normal poke so i's expect you to, but everyone uses it the same way to get into fc to set up wsB. very rarely do you ever see people not do wsB after these attacks that force fc. why? it's effective because no one steps, which leads me to my second point.

the 2nd point i was trying to make:

sc4 is stiff. stepping is becoming a non-factor for most people and now they're simply focusing on attacking and blocking. movement only becomes an issue when you feel as though there is a danger of getting ro'ed, or when you have to 8wr to get a particular move, only then do people really feel a need to implement 8wr.

now, dave, i don't want you to get upset that i'm using you as an example. i'm not calling you a scrub because you do this (hell, i'm guilty of doing it too and i've noticed that many people are), the point is that i happened upon your vid when you came into this thread, and it perfectly exemplifies this point:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=6SlMVO0-krA&feature=related

if you watch this vid, you'll see that neither player is really 8wr'ing to avoid an attack. i understand that stepping isn't always the most viable option, but when you watch this vid you can really see that it's not even really necessary! why should bldave bother stepping when he can simply run up and attack?

especially watch from 3:50 on when it's rock vs. kilik. there are so many moves that could have been stepped in this match and they weren't. was it because both players were terrible? hell no, it's because they don't need to in order to remain effective. i can run up, block, run up, block, run up and attack in order to stuff whatever it is that the opponent may use next.

now, the next vid i will point out the same thing, again, another dave vid, but watch how both people are playing.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=S-pYwrXyMi0

the first match we see the same exact strategy of running up and switching between blocking and attacking, except it's coming from the hilde player. i understand dave's approach of not stepping, but you can step her stuff. apparently dave knew this (because he said so), however, does that mean he would have? he can win without stepping, so why would he now? the match then becomes a matter of who beats out who's attacks. again, it's very in-your-face-attack-block-run up-repeat.

again, i want to point out that this isn't scrubby, not by a long shot, this is effective in sc4.

compare that to... this: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=YjXiRFlTliM&feature=related

granted, this is dan vs. floe, and at evo, but don't look at it like that, look at how they're playing (try to ignore the fact that sc2 is leaps and bounds faster than sc4... holy hell). look how much stepping plays a role in the offense and defense in general. now, one could make an argument that stepping in sc2 was too easy (step guard didn't help any). i see that way of thinking, but doesn't it seem like there's a bit more thought going in actually doing something besides running up, blocking, and attacking? not only that, but both characters have different ways of running up, attacking, and having fluid options from there if they wanted to (taki's running aa po transition and nighty's while running b+k).

the problem i see with sc4 is that you don't need to do that to win. you can win by using a small number of extremely effective moves (like kilik wsB, asura, hilde c3a, 2a+b, etc etc) by running-up and mixing-up between blocking and stuffing attacks with your own. i see it too often in too many vids, from fighting against too many people, and seeing how effective it is myself as i sometimes do this as well (because it works). there's a lack of options, in terms of movement, in order to change the momentum of a round.

my apologies for not having gone the distance the first time in explaining it like this, but better late than never.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

Tribal: Accept the money match!!! No great player hates the game they play seriously. Phail.

 

[Tiamat]

People who aren't stepping smart sell themselves mad short. It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the players.

 

[tribaL]

People who aren't stepping smart sell themselves mad short. It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the players.

maybe so, but stepping in general has gotten more difficult to do. you can sidewalk kilik's wsB left everytime. if you try to step, and you step too early or too late, you're getting hit because that's when it magically tracks (the animation is even weird). you can step around kilik's asura dance to the left and the first hit will miss, however, you have to step again in order to make the rest of the hits miss. if you sidewalk or step once you're getting hit. hell, even all of hilde's charges can be stepped.

in the long run it is, to some point, the game's fault. why implement an unecessary risk/reward in stepping/8wr'ing when i can just block and attack; sometimes i stuff/block the attack, sometimes i get pounded, but if i hit them more than they hit me i win (well technically speaking that's not always true but you get the point). you can see that's it's, to at least some extent, effective enough to win without resorting to that unnecessary risk.

but wasn't the point of having a vertical/horizontal attack and an 8wr system implemented in the first place was so that everything has it's own function? when did wsB's with great range and stun properties that guaranteed more damage, and moves that auto gi every mid that jump all lows and lead to great dmg and even a potential mixup on block, also happen to track? when was stepping actually considered more of a risk with less of a reward?

btw: i'm not picking on kilik because i think he's overpowered, i'm using those examples because they happened to be in the vids that i picked up for examples (and, well, since i'm still talking to dave in this post as well, he can see the correlation i'm trying to make and how i'm involving him).

ADDENDUM: i've even noticed in the chat here at 8wr.com... when people discuss how to deal with kilik's asura, they ask "What attacks are good against asura?" or they discuss the luck they've had with certain attacks against asura. a perfect example of what i was talking about earlier in the "attack attack attack" mindset.

Tribal: Accept the money match!!! No great player hates the game they play seriously. Phail.

i'm not a great player, i don't play that seriously, and i don't hate the game dammit!

 

[Impending_Doom66]

but wasn't the point of having a vertical/horizontal attack and an 8wr system implemented in the first place was so that everything has it's own function?

As much as I think you are just trying to be an asshole in this thread, I completely agree with you on this. Of all the things in SC this probably bugs me the most, especially since the developers still teach it as a rock paper scissor game when it isn't even close to that anymore.

 

[tribaL]

As much as I think you are just trying to be an asshole in this thread, I completely agree with you on this. Of all the things in SC this probably bugs me the most, especially since the developers still teach it as a rock paper scissor game when it isn't even close to that anymore.

come on now, at this point you have to realize that it wasn't my intention to be that way. i've already apologized and rehashed most of what i've said in a more palpable and sensible manner.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

i'm not a great player, i don't play that seriously, and i don't hate the game dammit!

These are the same reasons this thread should not exist dammit!