In your reply, you said
firstly, i was talking about movement, not actual attacks that evade. the best example i can give is x's 66a+b~g. that was a cancel that actually turns into a kind of movement. i also addressed the point of characters having these options, but rarely are they used as they have effective enough options that don't require them being used. yoshi is the only example that i'll agree with in that he can be played very uniquely.
this has nothing to do with more than half the list he posted. You completely ignored his point, which is pretty convenient being it blows your point about a lack of movement options away, and STILL insist that no one answered your points.
ah, touche!
however, the other point i made in my original post was that:
in turn, everyone tends to play the characters essentially the same way. at that point the only differentiation comes in overall utilization and defense.
and
surprisingly there aren't too many of these options in sc. yea, soph has double angel step, and characters like voldo and yoshi have other options that they can use, but very seldom are they ever really used all that much. why? simply because it's not necessary.
i see now that i wasn't very clear (caught up in the heat of the moment):
my first point: characters have these options to use different stances, the problem i see is that they are either hardly used at all (for one reason or another, either the character doesn't need it or it's not efficient enough) or they're used by everyone the same exact way and it kills differentiation.
example: sieg, almost every single sieg uses the same exact srsh "dash" into either the k or the b, both of which have stun followups. i get it... it's effective, so people use it. that's fine. but because of the stiffness in movement in sc4, everyone sets it up the same way through the same moves. actually, i find sieg to be the biggest offender of this mostly because i find that players use essentially the same things to get into the same stances to force the same mixups.
another example: yoshi's drg, often i see people (myself included) only really uses this for the b_k mixup on wake-ups.
kilik: bp a and b is also all too often used only for wake-ups. again i get that it's effective for okizeme, but it always the same 50/50.
lizzy: omg, all i ever see is crwl a and mixups from there. even oof can be seen abusing this in the finals against wingzero. again, yea it works, but i wish there were more ways of using it.
maxi: well, let's face it, he kind of got boned. you aren't going to see too many people use anything outside of a few basic moves to get into his loops (bye bye aa's and bb's, hello 66b4g, 33_99bA, 4bb [i know these moves were used before, but their frequency has increased given that his other options got a little screwed over]).
now, on the other side of the coin, some characters have these stances, but rarely do they ever really need to use them.
voldo: face it, this guy is solid even without cr or mc (which is sad because mc was something that i really like seeing implemented, and so many people did it so well [aris, jayshadow]). one could argue bs is it's own separate stance, but i don't really consider that a stance so much so as an extension of his regular movelist. usually stances has some sort of property change, aside from being able to get bt thrown, voldo himself is essentially playing the same exact way (even some of his moves are the same).
yoshi: although i see the most variation in play from yoshi players, this is another character that can be played effectively without using a single stance. his basic movelist is sound and solid.
X: i think the stance is called SXS? you have to "stock" it in order for it to get useful, and even then i don't see many people implementing it well. i'd be interesting in playing against someone that does.
soph: very rarely do i ever find a need to be in angel step. sometimes i get lucky and i tech crouch something, but really all you need angel step for is a buffer to get 236236b faster. that move being amazing for so many reasons.
an addendum to this first point:
people tend to use the same moves with the same characters from the basic movelists as well. this makes sense because all the characters have moves that are better than others. all fighting games are guilty of this, but the fact that sc4 feels so stiff is why i'm starting to see is people essentially playing the same exact way.
dave: btw, that was the point i was trying to make about 2a_2k. i wasn't giving you crap about using it. it's a normal poke so i's expect you to, but everyone uses it the same way to get into fc to set up wsB. very rarely do you ever see people not do wsB after these attacks that force fc. why? it's effective because no one steps, which leads me to my second point.
the 2nd point i was trying to make:
sc4 is stiff. stepping is becoming a non-factor for most people and now they're simply focusing on attacking and blocking. movement only becomes an issue when you feel as though there is a danger of getting ro'ed, or when you have to 8wr to get a particular move, only then do people really feel a need to implement 8wr.
now, dave, i don't want you to get upset that i'm using you as an example. i'm not calling you a scrub because you do this (hell, i'm guilty of doing it too and i've noticed that many people are), the point is that i happened upon your vid when you came into this thread, and it perfectly exemplifies this point:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=6SlMVO0-krA&feature=related
if you watch this vid, you'll see that neither player is really 8wr'ing to avoid an attack. i understand that stepping isn't
always the most viable option, but when you watch this vid you can really see that it's not even really necessary! why should bldave bother stepping when he can simply run up and attack?
especially watch from 3:50 on when it's rock vs. kilik. there are so many moves that could have been stepped in this match and they weren't. was it because both players were terrible? hell no, it's because they don't need to in order to remain effective. i can run up, block, run up, block, run up and attack in order to stuff whatever it is that the opponent may use next.
now, the next vid i will point out the same thing, again, another dave vid, but watch how both people are playing.
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=S-pYwrXyMi0
the first match we see the same exact strategy of running up and switching between blocking and attacking, except it's coming from the hilde player. i understand dave's approach of not stepping, but you can step her stuff. apparently dave knew this (because he said so), however, does that mean he would have? he can win without stepping, so why would he now? the match then becomes a matter of who beats out who's attacks. again, it's very in-your-face-attack-block-run up-repeat.
again, i want to point out that this isn't scrubby, not by a long shot,
this is
effective in sc4.
compare that to... this:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=YjXiRFlTliM&feature=related
granted, this is dan vs. floe, and at evo, but don't look at it like that, look at how they're playing (try to ignore the fact that sc2 is leaps and bounds faster than sc4... holy hell). look how much stepping plays a role in the offense and defense in general. now, one could make an argument that stepping in sc2 was too easy (step guard didn't help any). i see that way of thinking, but doesn't it seem like there's a bit more thought going in actually doing something besides running up, blocking, and attacking? not only that, but both characters have different ways of running up, attacking, and having fluid options from there if they wanted to (taki's running aa po transition and nighty's while running b+k).
the problem i see with sc4 is that you don't need to do that to win. you can win by using a small number of extremely effective moves (like kilik wsB, asura, hilde c3a, 2a+b, etc etc) by running-up and mixing-up between blocking and stuffing attacks with your own. i see it too often in too many vids, from fighting against too many people, and seeing how effective it is myself as i sometimes do this as well (because it works). there's a lack of options, in terms of movement, in order to change the momentum of a round.
my apologies for not having gone the distance the first time in explaining it like this, but better late than never.
