Tier Discussion

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Damage : yes just yes.
Speed : yes, what the link with the range ? i'm just talking of the speed here.
Safeness : Aeon is safer on block and on whiff. Nothing else more to say. I'm still not talking about the range here.
GB : yes true
Throw : The range of siegfried is excellent. But damage : 45/50 without wake up. For Aeon : 55/65 with wake up.
Aeon throws > Siegfried. Range is an important parameter, but it's not a reason to forget the damage and wake up opportunities.
Pushback move : I'm still thinking yes.
Crusher : Aeon have excellent TC, excellent TJ, super TJ, super TC... Safe or not ? What is the link again ?
Movement : Nothing tie. Aeon moves better than Siegfried. Aeon doesn't have the worst backstep of the game. Siegfried has it (with Astaroth).

Of course Siegfried has a better range, I didn't say the opposite. But range is not enough (just look mina in SCIV).

I'm not focusing on punisher. I didn't say that, and you shouldn't make me say something I didn't. That's just unfair.
Most of Siegfried's MU seem negative, and several are just impossible (Natsu, Patroklos, etc.)


You're welcome :)
 
Directed at no in particular and everyone in general:

Love how people are talking about buffs and nerfs for characters when the games has been out for what 10 fucking days?
You bitches are no different then all the people you complain about on eventhubs, SRK, ect... fucking whiny, salty, little school children.

Let the damn game play out for a while and give the people who actually like and are good at it a chance to fucking play the game and figure it out. I don't care what anyone says, it is too early to be talking about tiers; or for that matter especially buffs and nerfs.

Fucking scubs.
 
Thane said:
Directed at no in particular and everyone in general:

Love how people are talking about buffs and nerfs for characters when the games has been out for what 10 fucking days?
You bitches are no different then all the people you complain about on eventhubs, SRK, ect... fucking whiny, salty, little school children.

Let the damn game play out for a while and give the people who actually like and are good at it a chance to fucking play the game and figure it out. I don't care what anyone says, it is too early to be talking about tiers; or for that matter especially buffs and nerfs.

Fucking scubs.
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If we didn't talk about this stuff NOW, they wouldn't do anything at all. It's never too early to talk about tier discussion, buffs, and nerfs, as the characters are kind of ripe with that at the moment. So kindly fuck off, kthxbye.
 
Pantocrator said:
Damage : yes just yes.
Speed : yes, what the link with the range ? i'm just talking of the speed here.
Safeness : Aeon is safer on block and on whiff. Nothing else more to say. I'm still not talking about the range here.
GB : yes true
Throw : The range of siegfried is excellent. But damage : 45/50 without wake up. For Aeon : 55/65 with wake up.
Aeon throws > Siegfried. Range is an important parameter, but it's not a reason to forget the damage and wake up opportunities.
Pushback move : I'm still thinking yes.
Crusher : Aeon have excellent TC, excellent TJ, super TJ, super TC... Safe or not ? What is the link again ?
Movement : Nothing tie. Aeon moves better than Siegfried. Aeon doesn't have the worst backstep of the game. Siegfried has it (with Astaroth).

Of course Siegfried has a better range, I didn't say the opposite. But range is not enough (just look mina in SCIV).

I'm not focusing on punisher. I didn't say that, and you shouldn't make me say something I didn't. That's just unfair.
Most of Siegfried's MU seem negative, and several are just impossible (Natsu, Patroklos, etc.)


You're welcome :)
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Damage: No, just FUCKING no. Even nerfed as he is, Sieg hits harder than Aeon.
Speed: Sure, he's faster, but that's the point we're trying to make, it's a TRADE OFF, since you didn't bother to talk Sieg's advantages.
GB: yes, true, can we stop talking about the established fact?
Throw: Sieg's grabbing range make up for that. and there are wake up opportunities for siegfried, all the same.
Pushback Move: With the exception of the frontal kick, I have yet to see a move from Aeon that knocks back without sending Aeon forward too.
Crusher: Won't comment
Movement: Won't comment.

That aside, Sieg still needs a damage and mechanics buff.
 
EastredDragon said:
If we didn't talk about this stuff NOW, they wouldn't do anything at all. It's never too early to talk about tier discussion, buffs, and nerfs, as the characters are kind of ripe with that at the moment. So kindly fuck off, kthxbye.
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no, neophyte, the early game is where we learn to deal with things, learn matchups, and play the game, not complain when you feel like the game is unfair because you can't win and start begging for buffs/nerfs.

I am actually grateful that you posted what you did. This is the epitome of the scrub mentality. They don't need to do anything now or so far as we know anything at all. The game hasn't been out long enough for people to learn counter and counter setups against the characters in question. So far there doesn't seem to be anything the screams broken and that's all that should ever be fixed.

We need to give the game some time before rushing into anything. Not doing so could hurt the game.

Am I the only one who remembers Iceman being "overpowered" in MvC2? lol. That didn't last long. the game and the players evolved and came up w/ better stuff making the game more fun and deep. screaming for buffs/nerfs now is just a reaction spoiled little babies have theses days because they don't want to have to use effort to win anything. SC5 needs time to evolve and unless there is something blatantly broken (read: ST Akuma) there should not be any changes.
 
Thane said:
no, neophyte, the early game is where we learn to deal with things, learn matchups, and play the game, not complain when you feel like the game is unfair because you can't win and start begging for buffs/nerfs.

I am actually grateful that you posted what you did. This is the epitome of the scrub mentality. They don't need to do anything now or so far as we know anything at all. The game hasn't been out long enough for people to learn counter and counter setups against the characters in question. So far there doesn't seem to be anything the screams broken and that's all that should ever be fixed.

We need to give the game some time before rushing into anything. Not doing so could hurt the game.

Am I the only one who remembers Iceman being "overpowered" in MvC2? lol. That didn't last long. the game and the players evolved and came up w/ better stuff making the game more fun and deep. screaming for buffs/nerfs now is just a reaction spoiled little babies have theses days because they don't want to have to use effort to win anything. SC5 needs time to evolve and unless there is something blatantly broken (read: ST Akuma) there should not be any changes.
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I believe it's Namco's intention to wait anyway. I think, as the game company themselves, they'd probably be smarter than that.

Neophyte? Oh cute, you're going off that little text under my picture that shows I likely just joined the forum to judge my entire character. You're probably a pompous dick who has a god complex simply because he's good at a video game.

Scrub mentality? I have a 76% win streak, that's not great, but I don't think that's scrub zone, I've seen far worse. Let me ask you someting, Do you main Sieg? Do you main Natsu? Do you main anyone that we're talking about that faces a POSSIBILITY of being buffed or nerfed? That's all this is, SPECULATION, which you seem to get confused with whining.

I personally believe Sieg needs a buff to his power so he can actually hit like a heavy hitter he should be, as well as fix the mechanics that make his sword not go through people. Again, this isn't whining, it's something I honestly believe needs to be looked into. If you want REAL whining, go to the facebook, where there hasn't been a character who wasn't whined about.
 
if namco listens to anything on facebook... heaven help us all.

I play Algol and Nightmare.
Your win % doesn't matter. I've gone on 25 win streaks like it was nothing because I was matched up w/ people who were not very good.

As for the rest, sure they should fix BUGS, but asking for more stronger attacks is not a bug lol. There is little point to talk w/ you... As Euripides said:
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.​
 
Thane said:
if namco listens to anything on facebook... heaven help us all.

I play Algol and Nightmare.
Your win % doesn't matter. I've gone on 25 win streaks like it was nothing because I was matched up w/ people who were not very good.

As for the rest, sure they should fix BUGS, but asking for more stronger attacks is not a bug lol. There is little point to talk w/ you... As Euripides said:
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.​
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I'm not calling you a fool, I'm calling you a dick. The point I'm trying to make, is let people talk about it. Namco pretty much expects people to bitch about the game, some for valid reason, some not.

Just don't call everyone who says it a fucking scrub, it's most unbecoming of you.
 
You dont seem to get it eastered. Buffs/Nerfs should NEVER be discussed before the game is at least a few months old. I am a Mortal Kombat player, and they did this EXACT same thing you want and here is what happened:
Jax was considered by many to be the worst character in the game, Kano one of the best. They buffed Jax considerably, and when a decent player picked him up, he became S tier and one every tournament he entered. This guy has played top players with day one Jax, and has still stomped them.

Kano on the other hand had very fast recovery on his knife throw and upball, which pissed so many people off(offline and tourney) that they nerfed both. NOW, he is considered by most to be bottom 5, because people eventually figured out how to counter knives and ball, and then he was stuck with a watered down version of that and is only recently moving up because of new tech found.

Moral of the story? You have to let the game evolve. Characters that seem OP now can have a glaring weakness that no one has found yet, and if they are nerfed to be "viable but not OP" they could turn into "not viable and bottom tier". Same with asking for buffs, Sieg could be a BEAST and know one would know it yet. All it takes is one new tech to completely change the character. If they add buffs onto that, then Sieg will be OP, which people will then cry about. That will cause HIM to get nerfed, and then you are right back where you originally were.
The game has only been out for TEN DAYS. You are either ignorant or stupid if you think ANYBODY has even discovered 50% of the things most characters can do. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know more than 10% of the game's potential with tiers/matchups/characters after only ten days. That just is not enough time. Tier discussion is fine because it is simply giving your opinion on who the best and the worst characters are. Asking for Buffs/Nerfs is a terrible idea because if namco happens to actually listen, your character or SCV in general could become so screwed up and broken that no one would touch it.

Side note: I dont care how good this game's netcode "supposedly" is, Online should NEVER be a basis for Buff/Nerf discussion, period.
 
Siegfried was ok before they nerfed him. I guess they did it because people complained about.

On my side I'm not talking with a 10 days knowledge I know than 10% of the game.. Siegfried will never be a beast. I don't know yet if he is the worst character in the game. But low tier with impossible match up for sure.

EastredDragon said:
Throw: Sieg's grabbing range make up for that. and there are wake up opportunities for siegfried, all the same.
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No wake up at all. Just ukemi back and it's over.
 
I know its fun and all, but people need to stop basing their opinions on their experiences on-line. I know this is going to come off the wrong way to most of you, but many of you are not good enough or experienced enough to judge any thing in this game. While the on-line play is quite good, the players are not thus one should not judge a character based on it.

And I agree, stop calling for buffs/nerfs. I was questionable on Natsu like many are, but after playing a few long sets with a very good Natsu, I began to see that she is not as bad as I originally thought. Their hasn't even been much tourney play and people are calling for characters heads. Hell, Mitsu for one is way better than a lot of people think.
 
WhiteShadow said:
I know its fun and all, but people need to stop basing their opinions on their experiences on-line. I know this is going to come off the wrong way to most of you, but many of you are not good enough or experienced enough to judge any thing in this game. While the on-line play is quite good, the players are not thus one should not judge a character based on it.

And I agree, stop calling for buffs/nerfs. I was questionable on Natsu like many are, but after playing a few long sets with a very good Natsu, I began to see that she is not as bad as I originally thought. Their hasn't even been much tourney play and people are calling for characters heads. Hell, Mitsu for one is way better than a lot of people think.
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I agree. The more I main Mitsurugi the more I realize how good he actually is. Great damage and has great range on many of his attacks, and being able to combo off of a poke(2KB) is not bad either.

I also played with a good Natsu recently. We traded off one match after the other, each taking 5 rounds. Until I eventually realized I could just roll her ninja cannon when I'm down(that was what he got me with every time) and could side step A+B most of her stuff.

And I posted this like three times already but I cannot stress enough how important it is for them to leave the game be for at least a couple months for the OFFLINE(tourney) players to really figure out reasonable buff/nerf requests.
 
Alpha Patroklos I won't say he's S tier but, I think it's arguable for him to be top tier.

Damage: Is good, may not be easy to achieve but if anyone masters his combo's/just frame timings getting quick damage will be flawless.

Speed: Very fast. Possibly one of the fastest characters.

Punishments/Whiff punishments: His best punisher is the Sakura Twister FC aB (Most people know this as the umbrella punisher from setsuka in SC4). The Sakura twister i13 while the jf version is i12. So anything AA can punish Jf can punish but, instant Sakura Twisters may take some time to master. Possibly the best punisher.
Other options: In case you can't get a instant jf sakura twister 2aA+B+K is decent. It's i13 and, causes ground splat so you can follow up with a (JF only) sakura twister. Note: 2aA+B+K is a brave edge and, costs meter.
bA although the move is i19, it's still a very good whiff punishing tool and, I believe from max distance it's punishable by few. 44b+k is i14 and, can be used as a good sidestep whiff punisher. On knock down you get oki options, can follow up with JF sakura twister or, BE version for combo.

Safeness: Most of his punishments are very unsafe. Other than his punishments, his just frames (besides sakura twister) and 8wayrun kicks are solid safe options for pressuring. All -10 or, less.

Crushing ability: Alpha still has Setsuka's great While rising B which crushes highs, Sakura twister will also crush highs. In some cases 33b will also crush highs from twilight haze stance (236~3b). From a distance 2b+k will crush lows, 8A+B~B will crush lows and, 2aA+B+K

Movement: good ground game, fast pace, 44k will catch those who love to sidestep in any direction. Same as 22_88k if you can guess which way they step.

Grabs: A+G like in sc4 with Setsuka you can follow up with 8A+B~B. 214B+G you can follow up with two jf Sakura Twisters for 103pts of damage. (I don't know any other grab that gets you this type of damage other than Astaroth's air throw grab into 88_22B)
 
WhiteShadow said:
I know its fun and all, but people need to stop basing their opinions on their experiences on-line. I know this is going to come off the wrong way to most of you, but many of you are not good enough or experienced enough to judge any thing in this game. While the on-line play is quite good, the players are not thus one should not judge a character based on it.

And I agree, stop calling for buffs/nerfs. I was questionable on Natsu like many are, but after playing a few long sets with a very good Natsu, I began to see that she is not as bad as I originally thought. Their hasn't even been much tourney play and people are calling for characters heads. Hell, Mitsu for one is way better than a lot of people think.
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I would say we need at least a year before people start being able to seriously discussing balance. Heck, Starcraft has been around competitively for something like 12 years now, and it's had a total of 4 balance patches not counting the bug fixes. If has a patch in the near future, the only patch notes I want to see are along the lines of "Removed fuzzy guard. Removed Ivy clash glitch"
 
Thane said:
Directed at no in particular and everyone in general:

Love how people are talking about buffs and nerfs for characters when the games has been out for what 10 fucking days?
You bitches are no different then all the people you complain about on eventhubs, SRK, ect... fucking whiny, salty, little school children.

Let the damn game play out for a while and give the people who actually like and are good at it a chance to fucking play the game and figure it out. I don't care what anyone says, it is too early to be talking about tiers; or for that matter especially buffs and nerfs.

Fucking scubs.
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This - this thread mostly reads like something from TYM and that is not a good thing, lol.
 
Playing my own devil's advocate real quick, if anything is discovered (i.e. Fuzzy Guard) it needs to be taken care of prior to Evo.
 
I agree w/ those of you who are bringing up Fuzzy Guard issues. While I don't see it as something totally game breaking since SC players have dealt w/ VC in the past and... well it was what it was. In anycase, I'd categorize Fuzzy Guard as a bug and hope that it gets fixed.

That's the thing. I'm all for Namco ironing out the bugs/glicthes in the game (Ivy glitch that was mentioned a few posts up, some hilarious Algol chair bugs, general hit detection bugs/glitches, ect...) But there is a world of difference between fixing bugs/glitches and buffing/nerfing characters.

I still stand by my opinion that we just need to play the shit out of the game and I think we'll begin to see that some of the characters who are "OP" right now will start to get exposed as time goes on -- we'll learn their set ups and how to avoid their more damaging options.

I've been playing FG since I was about 8 (SF: World Warrior baby!) and am pretty good at everything (not the best at all, just competent) and one of the most important things I think new players and/or struggling players can do to help themselves w/ problem match ups is to play and learn the character that you are having problems against. seriously. If you are having problems against Natsu, play her for a few days.

This doesn't mean just run through her move list in training mode... It means actually play her. Learn her set ups, learn her counters and whiff punishers, learn her spacing, learn her combos. This will have a multiple effect on you as a player. 1st, you'll have a better understanding of how she works; what she can and can't get away with. 2nd you'll understand what it takes to play her and the frustrations that come w/ playing any character; no character is simply a "win button". After a while you'll appreciate good Natsu play instead of complaining because you'll now know what it takes to make her "work", and you'll be a better overall player because of it. When you return to your main/character you like, I promise that you'll see things have suddenly become much more clear in that matchup.

Note: While I use Natsu in this example you could replace her with ANY character that you are having problems w/. Whenever a new SC game comes out I always play and see what is new w/ Voldo, even though I hate him w/ a passion, his unorthodox fighting style used to throw me off a bit. Actually biting the bullet and playing him helped me so much.

I'd encourage everyone who is struggling in a certain match up to play as that character and put in some time and learn the match up. Put in some effort, just please don't immediately resort to calling for buffs/nerfs. Not only does it make you look like a little, whiny, salty, school boy, broke back bitch

-- more importantly ---

it makes the SC community look bad.
 
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