Tira Matchup Discussion

SeraphimJester

[10] Knight
Are you sure that Viola can BBB punish a blocked GS 3B at a distance? I swear that it's too short-ranged for that.




The vast majority of her long-range moves are completely linear - nothing to be afraid of. If she's in ORB stance some of her tools like 66A+B and 22_88A+B have pretty damn solid range, but those have their own problems.

As a general rule, you want to be at mid range against Viola most of the time. Her claw attacks have tiny range.




Good Violas wouldn't be letting you do that.




That strategy of yours is very risky. 6B+K only leaves Viola vulnerable for 20 frames. Meaning that she can block almost straight away if need be. There is no way you could 66AA her on reaction. And if she blocks after 6B+K, that doesn't stop the attack. The orb will still hit you, leaving you open for more mix-ups.

1K, 3A and 6B are all common attacks after a 6B+K - the latter two can lead into a free 3B combo if well-timed.


Personally I feel that rushdown, is better than defense when it comes to facing Viola. She's at her weakest when the orb is set.
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In reference to 66AA JS, I've done it plenty of times from Mid Range. A Viola's intention after using 6B+K wouldn't be to just block, and be dormant. That's highly unlikely. They'd either do a low kick, or another short attack followed up by a grab or combo, therefore 66AA works as a good interceptor from MY experience.

Ultimately, you play your Tira differently from mine, but nonetheless my methods are clearly working in my favour.

Pressuring Viola through Rushdown works better. That's my stance on this debate.
 

MntT77

[10] Knight
Probably not at tip range, but up close she can punish it for sure.
I just tested it, and yeah, for GS 3B to be safe you have to space it very well. So maybe that one isn't 100% practical. However, spacing JS 3B outside of AAB range is much more lenient, and as long as you're not right next to her it should work.

22_88A outside of 3A range is excellent too.
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
If the frame difference in startup isn't an issue and you don't need the TC, sure. The JFs are pretty easy to land even without practice, the extra damage compared to 3B(and the second 4K without a dash) is okay. I still prefer the TC from 3B though, I never use 4B :B :B in actual battles :)
 

mikosu

Goderator of pink hearts
The talk about GS 4B should be moved to the general discussion thread. My general rule of thumb is the same as SC4: if they can space her it's probably a bad matchup. The damage differential is always something to consider. JS and GS must be considered independently and averaged but research like setto-kun's must be done.

Against Viola spacing is very good but since Tira doesn't excel at that it's a riskier matchup. I suggest next-to-never ducking into fear mixups. Taking a few 1Ks is much better than taking two 3Ks for example if she has a full bar. You can play more unsafe given her weak punishment game and range limitations but spacing moves at tip is ideal. I play a Voldo somewhat regularly but don't have comments on the matchup yet.
 

ZUZU

[10] Knight
Viola-
6B+K: 9K CH during 'fear'. Better option than 3AA or other due to good source of meter gain and wake up options

Set 44A BE: GS 44A after first ball hit on block. May not be best to always do this as it would whiff if viola back steps or decides to cancel the orb. At least you don't have to GI.

Otherwise step to your right after the 44A.
 

alexiserf

[08] Mercenary
Any tips against NM? I have a lot of problems with backstepping NMs. No matter what I use I always whiff my attks. I don't know how to go about fighting him.
 

Forgon

[12] Conqueror
Any tips against NM? I have a lot of problems with backstepping NMs. No matter what I use I always whiff my attks. I don't know how to go about fighting him.
A lot of his chains and combos can be interrupted by a standard BB and AA if timed correctly. Otherwise, 4K and GS 3AA is your best bet when interrupting his moves such as 4KK and 3AA.

In my personal experience (playing NM), using low hit mix ups and punishing with WR B can net a good defense against NM but you need to rush him down. Get close to him using JS 66K and 11/88 B as well as 66AA is you can punish him.

You have to play offensively with NM and never give him a chance to interrupt you with his grabs or his two stances. If forced away from him in GS, use 2A+B, 6A, 66A, and 66K to help you close the gap.

If you have a good utility of it, even Updraft can have some use in close the gap provided you catch the opponent off guard.

--Forgon
 

alexiserf

[08] Mercenary
I need help against Ivy. She has a LOT of moves that do a little sidestep like her 3B and 214B. Smart opponents abuse moves like these since they push you back (so you can't punish) and 214B even TC. Tira's horizontals are either slow and high or short-ranged/unsafe.

Whenever Ivy plays the keep away with those tools I feel hopeless. I can't seem to get in range to do some damage, specially in JS. And if I rush in they do 7B which is super fast and cancels all my running options.
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
I need help against Ivy. She has a LOT of moves that do a little sidestep like her 3B and 214B. Smart opponents abuse moves like these since they push you back (so you can't punish) and 214B even TC. Tira's horizontals are either slow and high or short-ranged/unsafe.

Whenever Ivy plays the keep away with those tools I feel hopeless. I can't seem to get in range to do some damage, specially in JS. And if I rush in they do 7B which is super fast and cancels all my running options.
Yes you are right, Ivy is very hard and frustrating to play against, especially for Tira.

You have identified her 2 main strengths in this matchup - her sidestep attacks (3B and 214B) and her keep out game.

Against the sidestep attacks, Tira really has little in the way of anti-step, just like you said. Her best attacks are JS 2AB and GS 2A, but these are not very rewarding. What you need to do is make her attacks very unsafe, by changing the way you play. Average Ivy players will spam these moves at disadvantage, so what you can do is, when at advantage, delay just a little and then step to your right. If you time it correctly, she will whiff and you get a free 3B (for ridiculous damage if you're in GS). This way you can start to dominate Ivy and force her to adapt to you.

I find her keepout much harder to deal with. A well placed GS 2A+B, or even Updraft, can help, but you must surprise her with them - they are both far too slow to be abusable. Backing her against a wall, if you can, will help enormously - your anti-step options are better here too - but against a ring edge, remember not to use highs, as she can 1-hit kill you with a FC1B.
 

wataru

[10] Knight
I need help against Ivy. She has a LOT of moves that do a little sidestep like her 3B and 214B. Smart opponents abuse moves like these since they push you back (so you can't punish) and 214B even TC. Tira's horizontals are either slow and high or short-ranged/unsafe.

Whenever Ivy plays the keep away with those tools I feel hopeless. I can't seem to get in range to do some damage, specially in JS. And if I rush in they do 7B which is super fast and cancels all my running options.
You have identified her 2 main strengths in this matchup - her sidestep attacks (3B and 214B) and her keep out game.

Against the sidestep attacks, Tira really has little in the way of anti-step, just like you said. Her best attacks are JS 2AB and GS 2A, but these are not very rewarding. What you need to do is make her attacks very unsafe, by changing the way you play. Average Ivy players will spam these moves at disadvantage, so what you can do is, when at advanteg, delay just a little and then step to your right. If you time it correctly, she will whiff and you get a free 3B (for ridiculous damage if you're in GS). This way you can start to dominate Ivy and force her to adapt to you.
Ivy's 214B can be double stepped to the right aswell. Leaves her open for hours.

I tend to spam 22_88A on Ivy. They love their 3B and dominance 2A+B way too much. So much whiff.

You can pretty much spam step on Ivys as her horizontals don't really net her much in the way of guaranteed combo opportunities or damage. Watch out for that kick sweep though.
I like to mix it up with using the step to slide in to 8wr moves for mix up, like 22_88 then hit JS1B to do the low, nearly guaranteed to hit or counter hit and you can follow up.
 

alexiserf

[08] Mercenary
Thanks for the tips everyone! After a while in training mode I noticed that you can step many of her stuff to the right. And also you can interrupt her 4A+B B and her 22B BBB with Tira's 4K if first hit was blocked. I guess I'll go back to training to try out both of your suggestions.

Thanks!
 

Ring

Lay still now
Well, against Ivy you gotta stay in GS as much as you possibly can. There are certain moves in GS that can stop Ivy from doing anything she wants in this MU. When in JS, Tira is almost powerless against Ivy imo, so staying in this stance for a prolonged period of time will work against you and make you lose life quickly and get your guard damaged very fast.

Personally I don't think doing a lot of side step against Ivy is a good tactic. She has some really good horizontals plus a lot of her verticals track when they are delayed (camera zoom on 3B). While it's true that she doesn't get a lot of damage from horizontals (with the exception of 4A which leads to almost 70dmg on a CH and it's safe), in most cases it gives her a KND with wakeup or good frames on hit. However, her ranged step killers are terribly unsafe so sometimes it's just better to wait for one and punish it hard rather than trying to dodge them which can be really hard since some of them kill both sidestep and backstep.

Her keep out game is something Tira can't absolutely with in Jolly. This is even worse with the fact that in JS Tira can't punish almost anything due to range/pushback of Ivy's whip moves. in GS however, Ivy's options are limited and Tira's damage is better. Ivy has to risk a lot more. She can no longer stop Tira from moving with 3(A) and 6(A)whenever she wants due to GS 3B punish threat. Mindless 3B and 214B spam will get countered with GS 3B whiff punish as well. I also think Tira's CE should punish 214B on guard.

In a nutshell, Tira's damage output in GS forces Ivy player to play safer and focus more on vertical moves, which makes whiff punishing with GS 3B easier. Of course, when Ivy's whip attacks are spaced correctly, even GS 3B can't punish them sometimes but no one said this MU is easy... it's actually really bad for Tira, but not a complete disaster, in my opinion 7:3 for Ivy against Jolly, and 5,5:4,5 against Gloomy.

Just some random thoughts, I can't sleep :p
 

Wid0maker

[10] Knight
So, I decided to enter the Feb online psn tourney. It seems that my first match is against an Algol player. I honestly can't say I've had a HUGE amount of experience in this match-up. Anyone have some good tips against Algol?
 

Slade

[14] Master
So, I decided to enter the Feb online psn tourney. It seems that my first match is against an Algol player. I honestly can't say I've had a HUGE amount of experience in this match-up. Anyone have some good tips against Algol?
A good foundation to start with would be to learn your punishes against him. Knowing what to punish will force him to play honest while you get acclimated to the rest of what constitutes a matchup (effective ranges, mixups, reset scenarios, tech traps, etc.) Here's some punishes:
6AAB: Can't be hit confirmed unless he does the first two hits. 2nd hit can be ducked, WR B punish.
3AA: Both hits are -14 on block. 4K or GS 3AAAAAAA or CE.
1A: WR K or FC A or CE.
4AB: First hit is 4K or AA punishable. 2nd hit is CE punishable, maybe GS BB too.
6BBB: Duck 2nd hit, punish with anything. RCC GS 3B is best. Don't let Algols get away with this move on block.
3BB: First hit is -16, 2nd is -14. 2nd hit is steppable counter-clockwise and easily JGable.
1B: 4K/2A/CE punishable.
4BA: 3B punishable on both hits.
623B: 3B punishable.
FC 8B: BB/GS 3AAAAAAA/CE punishable.
WR B: -14, some pushback. CE should work, 4K might.
6KK: First hit is 4K/CE punishable, 2nd can be ducked for WR B or GS 4A or whatever.
1K: WR B punishable.
WR KK: -16, GB version can be stepped.
Bubbles are all unsafe at close range. 4K or CE punish should be possible.
2B+KB is a shitty gimmick low. -14 on both hits and can be JGed for a launch punish.
66A: 4K/AA punishable. This is an important punish.
33AB: JG 2nd hit, punish with anything up to and including GS 44(B) or JS B+K it for instant full meter.
44AA is -17 and can't be hit confirmed. Not sure what Tira gets for -17.
11K is -16.

Other things to keep in mind:
Chair vortex can be escaped in several ways. Easiest is to GI or JG the back spikes or to just not stand up. Tira might have some character specific nonsense with Updraft or her aGIs.
GI completely stuffs QI "mixups" when timed right.
Don't get hit by 44B.
Don't let them get away with 6BBB/2B+KB gimmicks or mashing 2A at disadvantage.

Algol will struggle against Gloomy quite a bit. His movement is too shitty to let him do much against GS 2A+B and he doesn't get more than poke damage to punish GS 3B. Just remember to keep track of your moods, because he can bring a full life Tira to lower than 40% and force a mood switch. Don't be afraid to utilize backdash just because he has 4B+K; if you're unpredictable and effective enough with your backdashes to force him to guess with 4B+K, chances are he'll end up whiffing it more often than not. He's at his weakest just outside of 2A range.