Top 3 characters by Keev, Akire, Daishi, Hyrul, and RTD from World Finals

Crysack said:
I'd say Mitsu, Alpha, Omega, Algol and NM are, at the very least, somewhere up there - whether it be top-tier or high-tier. Sieg isn't half as bad as most seem to make out. Viola I am a little unsure about - I understand why she's considered to be good, but her match-ups against the more popular tourney characters (i.e. Mitsu, NM) aren't overly favourable towards her in my opinion.
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Is Algol really that good? It might just be cause i play Viola but Algol seems... Really slow, unsafe, and generally sluggish. I certainly never feel like he causes me problems. His damage also doesnt so good unless he uses meter. On an unrelated note i dont think Aeon is as bad as some people think, in my opinion anyway he looks solid. More so than other characters that is.

KingAce said:
People say A pat is the best, I think Viola is possibly better.
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I think Viola is definitely up there. I'm not sure about how far is the thing. At least for me, i havent seen enough of A Pat or Viola to make a sound judgement honestly.
 
taffertier said:
Is Algol really that good? It might just be cause i play Viola but Algol seems... Really slow, unsafe, and generally sluggish. I certainly never feel like he causes me problems. His damage also doesnt look so good unless he uses meter. On an unrelated note i dont think Aeon looks as bad as some people think, in my opinion anyway he looks solid. More so than other characters that is.



I think Viola is definitely up there. I'm not sure about how far is the thing. At least for me, i havent seen enough of A Pat or Viola to make a sound judgement honestly.
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Ok, so, I don't actually have enough experience with Algol to make a proper judgement, but, from what I've seen so far, he seems like he has an incredible amount of options. Spacing is everything in this game - as is likely demonstrated by the success of characters like nightmare so far, and Algol is easily one of the best in the game in that department. Add in the fact that, like Viola, he can reach 150-160 damage with BEs as well as his so-called 'free round' CE and also other tricky shit like his vortex and tech trap game and I think he could be really good. I also don't believe there's a huge differential between Algol and Viola's overall speed - the startups on a number of Viola's moves are actually deceptively slow, she just looks quick because of her ridiculous pressure game.

As for the whole Viola vs APat thing, obviously it's difficult to make a judgement when there really aren't many Viola/APat players around (barring yourself, of course). That being said, I'd find it difficult to claim that Viola is outright better than APat when there are people who can do this with him:

http://www.twitch.tv/swga_maho/b/314959227 @ 1:29:30
 
So only RTD had the sense to mention Cervantes? No wonder he escaped the nerf bat.
A-Pat is retarded good. Plus, if he has a CE, pretty much every safe move becomes punishable. (2A combos = LOL.)

Nightmare is not top. Never was. No matter how many tournaments people win with him. Tools decide tiers, not tournaments.
 
taffertier said:
Half my life in two hits? Oh but it costs meter...I guess that makes it okay.
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Why do people have a problem with this? MK is the other game I play, Cyrax can take your entire life away with a bar. Astaroth gets great damage but he gets like nothing off a low. Block him high, his lows are so obvious.
 
Nightmare player here, you guize, almost every character in this game is great. I don't think Z.W.E.I. is all that good, nor is Sieg as horrible as you all say. He is in a similar boat as Nightmare, except he has a bit more speed and safety when it comes to his moves.
 
MKHSpartan said:
^This.^
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I thought match ups decided tiers? There was a post previously about it.

And i would say every character is viable, not great. It's hard to be a great character when you have a lot of or very powerful weaknesses. Raphael's side step issues being one of them. Sure you can work around that weakness but it's still something that will always give Raphael trouble.
 
A matchup chart is not necessarily a tier list.

Why does this thread happen every time a new game comes out.
 
Twelve said:
A matchup chart is not necessarily a tier list.

Why does this thread happen every time a new game comes out.
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Well according to DrakeAldan

"from my understanding, tiers are supposed to be based on raw matchup data. If you have favorable matchups and tools for fighting every single character in the game, you are high tier. If you have to get creative and actively work to bypass your opponent's tools, you're on a lower tier."

Also there is more to it, on page three. I didnt know Tier Lists would be so hard to define.
 
The problem with "the matchup chart is the tier list" is that you can have a character that absolutely blows up the bottom 3/4 of the cast, but goes even or worse with the "good" characters. If you just add the matchups and look at the points (and call it a tier list), his position will be artificially inflated for doing really well against characters that everyone does well against.

(Or whatever, numbers are made up, point is that wonky stuff can happen on matchup charts.)

IIRC this happened to Rufus in one of the SF4 revisions, during which he was listed second on a matchup chart, even though nobody ever really thought he was the second best character in the game.
 
taffertier said:
Also there is more to it, on page three. I didnt know Tier Lists would be so hard to define.
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In the end, they're opinions, and they're subjective. You can see this in other fighting games where tiers will change as new technology is discovered.

Sometimes the numbers say you can't win, which is a consensus agreed upon by everyone. I think Omega has it right, in that in this case, it's not about your frames or your tools.

It's about balls.
 
taffertier said:
So i could call Dampierre top tier and it wouldnt be wrong?

Or Hsien-ko top in umvc3?
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We don't have to go to extremes to prove a point...

Everybody knows Dampierre has limited tools and bad matchups. Nobody needs a tier list to know that.

Likewise, it would be a grave mistake to underestimate a Dampierre player just because the numbers say you will win.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
So only RTD had the sense to mention Cervantes? No wonder he escaped the nerf bat.
A-Pat is retarded good. Plus, if he has a CE, pretty much every safe move becomes punishable. (2A combos = LOL.)

Nightmare is not top. Never was. No matter how many tournaments people win with him. Tools decide tiers, not tournaments.
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I did mention Cervy too but my bit got corrupted. He is super strong. I do think ά pat is stronger though.
 
DrakeAldan said:
We don't have to go to extremes to prove a point...

Everybody knows Dampierre has limited tools and bad matchups. Nobody needs a tier list to know that.

Likewise, it would be a grave mistake to underestimate a Dampierre player just because the numbers say you will win.
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This tier thing seems mighty fickle and arbitrary. I think it would also just be best to leave it as opinions and speculation.

Edit: And i know better than to underestimate any character. Especially Damp, his B!E combos are not pleasant to be hit by.
 
REPROBEAN_CHILD said:
I'm pretty confident that's the result of a player giving an Astaroth-made character a a Height 1.
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I thought height only added like an extra 4-5 damage? It's a little more than half in that instance but a 22_88B BE followed by 28 A+B will still be almost half your life as default Asty.
 
taffertier said:
I thought height only added like an extra 4-5 damage? It's a little more than half in that instance but a 22_88B BE followed by 28 A+B will still be almost half your life as default Asty.
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Any kind of damage can add up to do significant damage, no matter how small it is. That's practically one of Viola's strengths; her damage imput may be low, but her attack rate and lengthy combos make up that shortcoming.
 
taffertier said:
This tier thing seems mighty fickle and arbitrary.
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That it is.

Hates said that tiers can be used to determine ROI for practice time and specific matchups. But, honestly, any good, serious player will know their own weaknesses and do their own homework. The rest is more philosophy than concrete knowledge. I personally believe you are going to do better with a character you are emotionally invested in as opposed to picking someone just because they are "top tier", even though their playstyle may not mesh with yours.

Most of the time, the words "tier list" are code for "excuses".
 
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