Who takes more skill? Time?

t3h_mAsTarOth said:
setsuka - u NEED to master her JFs in order to win
voldo - controlling ALL his stance transitions is really hard
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You need to master Setsuka's JFs...? Which ones, and why?
Seriously, when will people quit saying that...
She's hard as hell, but it doesn't have anything to do with the effing JFs...

This thread is about as pointless as the tier lists, lots of people give their opinions without knowing characters at all, most of it is just guesses.

[edit]No need for a lenghty paragraph after all, I'll just leave it at that.
 
Setsuka's on twice. Cass should be higher im not saying she's hard to learn but definately harder than algol.
 
Setsuka's really not that hard to play. Especially if your argument is going to center on "input tolerance."

1B:B is mashable if you have to.
1A;A;A is pretty easy to time because the input is on hit.
Umbrella is just fastest input, so that's not too bad unless (like me) you're too stupid to let go of A.
I have no idea what the input timing for 214B:B is, but I am super consistent on it, so I'm thinking it's pretty easy.

Honestly the hardest thing for me is getting JF umbrella off to finish combos, and that's only because I haven't been playing SC4 for too long so I still feel like I should be able to buffer shit like that. But other than that her combos and follow ups are all super easy. B+K series is pretty execution intensive in Soul Calibur terms, I guess.

She's also got pretty good throw range. If you run around whiffing throws with Setsuka, you're going to whiff throws with pretty much anybody.

I'd put Taki above Setsuka just because the constant input stream can be kind of hard to keep up with.
 
1. Ivy
2.Sets
29 Amy/Asta/Kilik (Sorry it really takes very very little brain power to win with these characters)

1. I chose Ivy over sets not because i think stance transitions is that hard, and not even buffering CS/SS into attacks, although that does take alot of practice learning the buffer windows for every attack. But what takes alot of dedication and practice and is very hard is doing CS/SS from coil stance through block animations. This is a whole new level of difficult that many players dont even know about. Most dont even know she can do CS/SS from coil stance.

2. I choose sets for 2nd place because to use her at full potential you have to learn different timings for a lot of useful JF's. But she is very safe, rapes Soul gauge, very fast, the best auto gi in the game. She has alot going for her she dont NEED her JF's to win.

29. Amy Asta and kilik are fucking jokes period. They need no explaining.
 
Astaroth really pisses me off since he is such an easy to learn character, yet because of all his unblockables/delay's and his bullrush/knee of doom, he becomes a tough character to fight that people like Aaronisba and other big time Asty players can take so much fucking advantage of it...-_-.....

Raphael is NOT easy to learn. Seriously, just because his moveset isn't as big as Yoshi's or Siggy doesn't mean you can just pick up and win with him. You have to know when to apply all his shit, and since he's so vulnerable to step and punishment, you really have to be careful. It's just when he DOES win, he makes it look effortless.

I don't see how Kilik is an easy to learn character either...otherwise all the kilik scrubs would be alot better off. I'm talking to Kilik that don't Asura/festival of the dead spam, they actually mix up their game and know ALL HIS long pokes and how not to be open to step doing them all.

Amy is whatever...As a Raphael player I despise her and her godliness so much it's not even funny....
 
No character is scrub friendly to the point of beating a good player, none, this isnt DOA. But in the hands of players that understand the game yes he is easy. FOTD is NOT a hard grab at all, Asura is a BS Mindless move, and iFC WR B is a joke for execution.
 
Plume said:
You need to master Setsuka's JFs...? Which ones, and why?
She's hard as hell, but it doesn't have anything to do with the effing JFs..
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she has everything to do with them... without umbrella her punishment and combos SUCK...

guys ASTA is NOT cheap OR easy... not if u know how to fight him... in sc3 he was sorta cheap... now he is punishable AND learning to whore bullrush with him won't get u anywhere...
 
Bullrush has good enough frames on block and leaves you so close to the opponent so you have the perfect throw/knee mixup. Online lag makes half of his UB's GUARANTEED if set up right/proper wakeup/teched.

I understand the knee, how it's unsafe, how to punish it...etc..

I still cannot figure out how to handle the bullrush. It still hits me Stepping unless I do it VERY early, I can't seem to ever punish it, YOU HAVE TO KEEP BLOCKING IT if you're near the edge of the ring..etc..

Fucking hate that move.
 
Unless Asty holds K down, the bullrush leaves him at negative on block, and if he holds it, then sidestep or interrupt. Just do a quick mid on block and you should beat out any offensive options (Unless he does the full version at the right range).
 
The main mid-attack option that leads to any sort of damage with Raphael is 3B...I can't remember if the asty's I was playing kept using both versions or 1 or the other.......hmmm......
 
BelovedChild said:
Bullrush has good enough frames on block and leaves you so close to the opponent so you have the perfect throw/knee mixup. Online lag makes half of his UB's GUARANTEED if set up right/proper wakeup/teched.

I understand the knee, how it's unsafe, how to punish it...etc..

I still cannot figure out how to handle the bullrush. It still hits me Stepping unless I do it VERY early, I can't seem to ever punish it, YOU HAVE TO KEEP BLOCKING IT if you're near the edge of the ring..etc..

Fucking hate that move.
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your basing your argument on an online argument. sorry but its way easier to step offline and the ub's and not guaranteed online or offline, unless all you do is play exceptionally laggy games. they are not near guaranteed all easily escapable without the proper mixup. and as said before whoring bullrush does not win you matches.

to be bullshit witha character, i think kilik is probably the easiest or raph but then you have to bring into other factors and that is how hard is it to win with them, which is the problem with this type of thread, as you can say a charcter is hard to master, but they may be easy to not master and still compete in high lvl play rather than a character that is easy to use but hard to use in competitive play, as that would move mina and ralf up the list and move characters like cass and soph down the list.

this thread is kinda pointless tho the discussion can be interesting, you will never get an agreed list, you will get close but never an agreed list.
 
ya man... up close bullrush is like -10... so only mix-up is attack or gi... unless its a taki where she can A,B,4A+B~A to punish... which is gay... and this isn't sc3 where bullrush was un-stepable... step to his right... and online is garbage... like asta is still fairly easy compared to TRYING to win with tira... because of the damage he deals... but it takes a lot time for one to master him being slow, learning to space, baiting, set-ups for RO or throws etc...

anyways enough arguing... hard characters r ivy, taki, setsuka, yoshi, maxi, voldo, cervy, tira, raph, mina, rock... rest don't have it that bad...
 
^Even in DOA you needed some skill to win. It wasn't masher friendly. Spam counters=your thrown. Spam moves=your punished. Spam throws=your hit.
 
Hmm...ok. Just for fun.

1) Yoshi - iMCF. 4A:A, 1A:A, and 1K:K series. 44B,B combos. Extreme range handicap. Stance mix-ups.

2) Maxi - Endless stance transitions. B+K:B:B:B for whiff punishment. Very unsafe.

3) Talim - Constantly struggling for damage. Pretty much handicapped in every way.

4) Cervantes - iGDR, iTP. I have yet to see anyone use CH 3B, iTP, B+K, iGDR 28B consistently.
 
i think it is a very hard to answer question, because where is the point that you can say a character is effective?

if you take a look on tier list, you can say, which charakter has different moves for different situations. and the more a charakter has, the higher he is on tier list. for example ivy is pretty high in tier list, and pretty hard to handle. but if u can master her, isnt it harder to win with say rock against her? so it could be harder to learn rock to be as effective as ivy on high level play. i think thats why it is nearly impossible to make a good reference.

on the other hand, if you mean, how hard is it to train a character to be effective like you are able to stand your man and not just eat dirt in online matches then the list could be a reference.
its more a question, how a new player in soulcalibur can learn different characters. then for sure most people would say kilik, mitsu, etc. is easier to learn then for example voldo and so on.

it is also different because some people have less problem with just frame inputs then others and some have more problems to get all stances in mind.
 
i think the JF's dont make a char hard to use, for example, Rock have few just frames, only 2, and he is one of the hardest chars to use, more than Setsuka, i think Setsuka is easier to use than Nightmare for example, cuz u can win with few moves and with no risk, nightmare dont.

Setsuka hard to use, for me........thats bullshit
 
im quite happy to say asty should be very near the bottom if not dead last. imo all astys play exactly the same, his speed is equal to most, his reach and damage is quite unfair. whenever i get asty in randoms i feel im just as good as asty mainers i know - not that im bitter or anything
 
So much hate on asta, what gives? He does loads of damage on hit, yes. Execution-wise, he's pretty simple, yes. But many times I've been at a point with him where all it would take is a small poke like a shin kick to kill my opponent, and well, he just doesn't have that. Both his 2k and 2a are hilariously slow. 6a has NO range. And just because he's simple on execution doesn't mean it's easy to know WHEN to execute. Timing your hits and spacing your opponent is probably the most important with him.

This brings me to my main point. There are characters that are difficult on execution but stand to gain immensely from mastering that execution, like sets jf mastery and taki efficient po rushdown variations, both of which can take months to completely master, and characters that are easier on execution but difficult on timing/spacing and avoiding predictability at higher levels, like the sisters ewgf punishment yet predictable crappy mixups or asta power at the cost of speed. Either can take a lot of time to realistically be used at high level competition, it all depends on what kind of player you are and which challenge is less daunting to you.
 
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