Yoshi SCIV -> SCV Changes

Discussion in 'Yoshimitsu' started by neorussell, Jan 31, 2012.

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  1. neorussell

    neorussell [10] Knight

    My Thoughts on SC5 Yoshimitsu:

    I know this is a rant but I just have to say this to get it off my chest.
    I got to say that i'm really disappointed with this new Yoshimitsu.
    I'm so close to dropping him right now.

    Let me tell you why I feel like this:

    You can try to be smart by using CE but it misses.
    He's parting thrust will most likely not come out.
    your best bet is 6k.

    His CE sucks. There's is no good way to set it up other than interrupting an opponents move.
    You can combo it after a few moves but they have to be in front of you to get the full CE.

    His Brave Edges are all useless:
    66a~a+b+k - why? nothing guaranteed even after CH.
    6b~a+b+k - supposedly replaces iMCF but you can't even get a combo out of it. It also has to hit on counter to stagger.
    3ab~a+b+k - The non-ch version can be blocked and punished heavily. You can't link this move to a:b+k, imcf, of his stagger move. The CH launches but because Yoshimitsu's juggles are non-existent, you do not have a lot of option. 6k is better.

    His best option for full damage juggle is still 6k.
    From SC2-SC5, we are still stuck using 6k for good damage.
    We shouldn't have to be forced to used 6k anymore. We've passed 3 games already, time for new combos.

    His iMCF is easier but there's really no good follow up after it.
    Opponent falls down too fast and he has no moves that will lead to more damage

    His Parting Thrust is not reliable. Granted, i'm no god at this game but in SCIV, I was atleast hitting them 100% of the time. Why is it harder? Why does it have to be CH to stun? Why is iMCF the only good follow up after it and even that requires timing as well.

    MED B is not unblockable anymore. Why? That was such a great move. Sure, this move is now a guard break and tracks 70% most of the time but it lost it's flavour. They can sidestep easily and your a sitting duck.

    66b and 33b are the same moves but for some reason, they have different properties. What!? How does that make sense? 66b on CH causes fall down stun but again no follow up other than 66a+b.

    9b+k, k does not track 100% anymore. I loved this move. Gave me guaranteed hits after a 214a in SCIV. Now it's useless cause if you stop at 9b+k, it's not safe and if you continue and they block, it's not safe either.

    His doorknocker has to be done precisely for full hits. It sometimes misses on big characters like astaroth too. Here I thought, they would fix the hit box on that.

    The Jump Knee took the cake for me.
    I was so happy to hear that rising knee was WS+k. I instantly thought that I have SC2 Yoshimitsu again. I could mix it up with 1a and let them guess with a FC, 3+k or WS+k ala SC2. But after testing, 1a is horrible on block (still), WS+k does nothing on clean hit, it does not launch even on ch and you get no follow up after it.

    I'm sure there are more things I can mention here to get this disappointment off my head but it won't change anything. IMO, they didn't improve him at all. In fact, this Yoshimitsu is worst than SC3 Yoshimitsu and we all know that he was garbage in 3. The Yoshimitsu who relied on mix-ups to win is dead. Now we have a Yoshimitsu who is plain just like the rest of the cast. Attack, attack, and attack.

    I don't like this Yoshimitsu at all. My loyalty still stands on him but it's sad to see my favourite character removed of his funness (that's a word).

    What do you guys think? Are you disappointed? Happy? Does he feel like the Yoshimitsu we used to love. Agree? Disagree? I seriously would like to hear your thoughts to make me believe that this character has hope against the bull rush characters.

    Vaelestrasz, Goofy and DrDogg like this.
  2. SiGeL

    SiGeL [08] Mercenary

    I'm disappointed too, from the time that I've played him. I started the series at 4, and I loved that he had so many options/crazy combos and setups. Now, he just feels really...linear, I suppose, which totally takes away from everything I enjoyed about playing him. I really hope I'm wrong, and it's just that I haven't had much time to play around with him, but this struck me almost instantly.

    I also want to say that what they did to the iMCF stun is god damn UNFORGIVABLE.


    I hate this game.
  3. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    Not sure what the purpose of the nerfs were to be honest. Makes the advance execution seem pointless. I can pull them off so it's not a big deal to do them but if another character could just be doing similar stuff will a basic input it seems off to be. Granted iMCF has incredible speed though so I understand it's level of execution. Parting Thrust not as much given that it's not even the best option in a combo and it's not blazing fast or + on block or something. It's is the beginning of a powerful link though. I though it was unnecessary when they nerfed it last game but this is really taking it far.

    To me the biggest loss is 6A. That on block in was a gem that it will be missed and it's speed and range will be missed.

    He's still super fun though and will competed fine against the rest of the cast I'm sure.
  4. mkl

    mkl [00] Signia's Cheerleader

    I've had a lot of trouble with most of what you're saying as well. That's why I'm playing him entirely different. If I get a 6K out of a juggle I'm happy. You just have to bait and whiff punish more. Especially with his CE. It's very easy to bait someone into it. 3AB has been getting a lot of shit but it's actually a really reliable tool so far. Just not the juggle starter anymore, but with the new Yoshi you shouldn't think juggle.

    He's good just like Mitsurugi is still good. In weird different ways.
  5. d3v

    d3v [10] Knight

    1. Knock down at the edge of the stage.
    2. Flea stance infinite
    3. ???
    4. Profit.
  6. HajimeOwari

    HajimeOwari [11] Champion

    Rants are fine and all, but perhaps it would be a good thing to focus on how us Yoshi players can turn these changes into good things? Since the game JUST came out, I have a feeling that there's a lot of stuff that hasn't been discovered yet.
    Pocky-Yoshi likes this.
  7. funkpanda

    funkpanda [09] Warrior

    I dont know why you don't like Yoshi's CE.... It's i16 and does 110 damage.... it's his best whiff punisher in this game. Quickstep around anything linear and punish with CE....

    I mean, the nerfs he got hurt. No easy combo after iMCF, harder aB+K.

    Not all his brave edges are bad
    66a~a+b+k - I only use this in wall combos. But its really good for extending.
    3ab~a+b+k - Its CH hit confirmable...
    6b~a+b+k - will agree, it's useless.

    But without using his meter all the time, it frees him up to use it for GI's or punishing CE. I honestly think you didn't give the CE a good look, 110 DAMAGE! Its really an awesome whiff punisher.

    But he got some buffs too...
    SDGF B is a LOT fast now(at least it seems to me)
    3B is only -14 on block! it used to be launch punishable.
    22K is now a launcher and still a frametrap setup.

    I honestly think this Yoshi is just supposed to be played differently. His game revolves around scoring a knockdown now and hitting people on the ground with 3B until they start getting up and when they do that, apply a wake mixup.
    I personally think this yoshimitsu is pretty swole.
  8. RedDjinn

    RedDjinn Dat Hillbilly

    I like the new yoshi as well, I think we were just spoiled by SCIV yoshi...

    I mean its hard to break 3 or 4 years of muscle memory so its going to take more than a day or two so relax!

    also 6K is not his best juggle! lol stop saying that...

    Alot of info in first post is incorrect...
    Pocky-Yoshi and ARustyLamb like this.
  9. Y-Disciple

    Y-Disciple [09] Warrior

    Okay, I'm a scrub, and I only played the game for a few hours, so I may be uninformed, but I want to voice my opinion right now, maybe someone can help me learn my way around it. I agree with OP, though I'd say I'm not just disappointed, but actually rather disgusted at what they did to him. This isn't just changing his playstyle, that's how I'd describe what they did with Tekken 6 Yoshimitsu, this time they just flat out removed what seems like half his moveset and replaced it with nothing. What's the point?

    6K no longer has the 2K followup, which makes no sense. It weakens it as a punisher and eliminates any chance of mixup. The move would be useless if it weren't his only worthwhile move after 3B, considering a-B+K is now harder to do and not as useful.

    His old 33B was a decent punisher from crouch because it had the B+K followup as well, but that's gone and it's now apparently 66B now, so I don't think it can be done from crouch.

    6B is his old 3A, which was already a pretty worthless move except that it had a followup launcher. Now it doesn't, so I'd say it's completely useless. Why take away his old 6B that caused stun on CH?

    wsK seems pointless, since it doesn't launch like it does in Tekken. Not sure about the frame data, but if it's punishable and not a punisher itself, I'd say it's worthless.

    Meditation stance is completely gone, and with it, his best low combo starter.

    Dragonfly A no longer combos into Dragonfly B. Not a horrible loss considering it was unsafe, but it was a pretty nice damaging combo either way. Sad to see it gone.

    iMCF seems useless now, and that was the entire reason people feared SC4 Yoshi. It seems slower, uses meter, only works on CH, and doesn't have a good followup.

    3A+B is gone, also not a huge loss, but I liked using it to go into flea.

    CH bA is stricter, which disappoints me because it was my all time favorite move, lol. Again, considering everything they took away from him, I don't see much point.

    I think this is the most hilarious: 4A+K, his Tekken moveset that changed based on the timer, is now restricted to four moves instead of 10+. The move you get is no longer based on the timer, and is now random, IIRC. Two moves are taunts, one is drunken master, one is the high kick, which isn't really worth using. No more UBs, only one does any damage. No control of what you get and little reward. This clever mixup tool is now completely useless.

    Because of all this, combos are shorter or nonexistent. I know Namco was supposedly trying to cater to the 2D fighter crowd by shortening movelists, but taking away combos is not what any fighter player wants to see, as it takes away the fun factor and turns it into a simple back-and-forth punch fest. Honestly, I can't think of a single thing I like better about this Yoshi, and that hurts me bad, since I've been loyal to him since SC2. Now, I don't know the frame data, so I'm not sure how good he is at punishing or how safe he is, so I won't say he's bad character, but man, this is the worst disappointment I've ever seen in a fighting game. Please correct me if I made an ass of myself at any point in my rant, I'd like to hear any positive aspects I'm missing out on.
    RedDjinn likes this.
  10. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja [09] Warrior

    Sup? Toramitsu from TekkenZaibatsu and ManjiKai checking in...finally decided to make an 8WR account...

    To the topic: I too was quite disappointed by the "dumbing down" of Yoshimitsu in SC V, most notably the removal of two stances (INT and MED). Not happy about the loss of either of them, since they were a big part of my mixup game. I mean, they kept SDGF, but dropped MED? Just not logical...

    I also don't really know how to feel about 66B's change to 22_88B...on the one hand, it's a nice juggler that can be done from a quick step and is also safe on block, but on the other hand, it (a) is still pretty slow, (b) doesn't track well at all, and (c) doesn't have nearly the mixup capability due to the removal of Intimidation followups.

    Even worse, I really don't like what they did to 3AB. As far as I'm concerned, 3A has lost a lot of its poke potential with the removal of the guaranteed-on-counter launcher. Haven't been able to test whether the full BE is natural on counter, but the mixup possibilities are substantially less.

    I really don't dig his BEs, on that note...the only marginally useful one is 3AbA+B+K, since it ends with a launcher. He didn't need an extended kabuki slap (he's not Ganryu), and he didn't need a glorified MCF that costs meter. Maybe enhanced sweeps? Bullet cutter? Shark attack? Flagstaff even, just something better than what we got.

    At least he can (with expert timing) combo 22_88K into his CE...just wish he had better juggles than 214A, 6B+KBBBB, 3B.

    I'm still going to stick with Yoshi, but I'm probably going to pick up another character as an alternate...[]
  11. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    It's the little stuff that makes the biggest difference to me.

    -The loss of precious 6A is my number 1 complaint. That is a bigger issue than Parting Thrust. We can adapt to that but 6A is gone with it, it's fantastic spacing an iMCF set up.

    -214A has almost no evasive properties now. So it's no good to read and punish with.

    -Then its a bunch of little stuff iMCF stun changes, DGF A ch follow up reduced to DGF K, then loss of 44A+B as a great whiff punisher...etc...
    Pocky-Yoshi, RedDjinn and DrDogg like this.
  12. Alpha

    Alpha [12] Conqueror

    For his CE, I've had lots of luck online when it came to interrupting opponents. Otherwise, I have to be patient and close to my opponent if I want to land it.
  13. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja [09] Warrior

    All that and the nerfed rising knee...

    So 214A doesn't duck under anything? Crud. I can land it okay on CPU opponents (have played the game a total of once since I got it), but it's a whole different ball game with people.

    Also, they changed 11A to 22A, which is going to give me headaches...[]
  14. DrDogg

    DrDogg [09] Warrior

    I'm in agreement with Neorussell. While I don't think this version of Yoshi is bad, I believe that PS took all of the fun away from him.

    - MED being gone really hurts my game. I had all kinds of setups that required being in backturned, and now there's really no good way to get there.

    - The Iron Fist moves are USELESS. Why did they randomize them? I'm okay with having to GI with A+K to "charge" them up or whatever, but the fact that even after 4 GIs, they're still random... WTF?! I wanted Lightning Screw Uppercut, but I got Ling's Taunt instead... now I'm dead.

    - I don't have an issue with a:B+K because it's basically the same slide input as iMCF now. I just don't understand why they made this change. I can do the attack with about the same success rate as before, but I have to actually think about it to make sure it executes.

    - My main whiff punisher from SC4, 8WR A+B cannot be done moving backward. I used to do it with 44_77_11 A+B, which made it great for whiff punishing since I could execute it while moving back. Now I have to move forward when I see an attack whiff... and it seems to be slower. This essentially makes it a grounded combo ender and nothing more.

    - Yoshi seems to be based on tech traps and oki now. I've already found a good number of tech traps, and he has most of his tech traps from SC4... but that's not how I want to play Yoshi. The tech traps added to my game, but now Yoshi's game pretty much has to revolve around it.

    I will still play Yoshi, but I can't say for certain that he'll be my main. I will be checking out other characters to see if anyone can replace him.
    RedDjinn likes this.
  15. funkpanda

    funkpanda [09] Warrior

    I was just reading up on some of the frames for Yoshi in this game. He got some slight buffs all over that make him so much better...

    First of all, his new 6B is a i13 Mid that's +8 on hit! +8 is nothing to scoff at. Your opponent pretty much has to block and guess against everything a that point.

    Flea A/IND A is +2 on hit now and all versions of kangaroo kick are safe! Im really liking this new yoshi. Sure he lost a lot of things that made him "fun" but I feel he's just a better overall character now.
    Gabedamien likes this.
  16. Gabedamien

    Gabedamien I Want To Be Happy

    I am not qualified to say whether SCV Yoshi is better or worse, or even predict with any accuracy how much I’ll like him long-term.

    However, since you’re all dying to know, some of my short term, uninformed, emotion-based reactions are as follows.
    • In a shallow sense, the character is still fun to play as (leagues more fun that Mitsu... what a sad story). Design-wise he’s still tops too, the same old nut with a different number.
    • REF and INT being gone hurt his variety slightly. I miss them a little more than I thought I would. But I could live without them if he had gained complexity elsewhere.
    • Random Tekken moves, even semi-random (meter based?) Tekken moves, are a BIG disappointment. Easily my biggest disappointment, actually. It was hard learning to clock check in SCIV; in addition to losing one of his many meta-games, this hurts his variety since I will almost never elect for a pseudo-random move. Bad decision.
    • Flash is indeed much more effective.
    • Stance transitioning has become extremely easy. In SCIV, you had to be fairly careful about your B+K inputs and directions because you could easily step or do a move instead of transition. The transitions also seem to be faster, which make Yoshi look pretty tricky still (a good thing). In particular, DGF->SDF->B UB has become pretty darn quick.
    • I miss 1B+K:B+K. Although the new 1B+K has some interesting properties. I never realized how often I used this move.
    • 9B+K, B+K is not quite as effective as it once was.
    • 4AAAAA has become a lot more generally useful.
    • WOW, all IND moves teleport now!
    • I’m still struggling with playing SCV Yoshi using SCIV mindset, and I am certain we will discover cool new things about SCV Yoshi. So I am in no way declaring SCV Yoshi worse or less fun in an objective sense; time will tell. These are just the initial reactions I’ve had.
    Sorry for the stream of consciousness, I’m just spouting stuff as it comes to mind.
  17. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    Officially is biggest nerf is the lack of 6A IMO. He has really nothing great for covering range anymore to get inside quickly to start his iMCF threat.

    Anyone else missing 44+AB like I am, I've been using 4K B as a whiff punisher instead but it's not nearly as good obviously.

    I don't know why they tightened up the execution on parting thrust cause honestly, you can do without it. I use it for try to catch people for damage but it's far from crucial. They should've just left it alone. This change is totally pointless.

    What's with Namco nerfing people to try to rebalance? Rather than tunes and tweak and make things better, they just seem to take away instead.

    I'm gonna play more with my secondary character since SC2 I think Asta.
  18. ifiction

    ifiction [04] Fighter

    It's almost as if the developers came into the Yoshi forum here and heard our rants about how useless A+K was... and how awesome the tekken moves were.... so they just got their revenge on our threads. TROLLS!

    A+K GI to charge the tekken moves.... great.

    Now it's like Setsuka just had a baby with SC4 yoshi.
    Oboro likes this.
  19. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    214 A still ducks but it's like the evasive frames have been greatly reduced. Also I found it's B evading properties are essentially all gone now.
  20. Signia

    Signia [13] Hero

    Funny thing is you can do almost all the combos he says aren't possible...

    Those moves that were removed? Sucked anyway. Except for 6A :(
    Red_Reaper likes this.
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