Z.W.E.I. General Discussion/Q&A

BrewtusBibulus

Get your eSports on!
I don't know if I had this conversation on the stream, so I'm going to put up how Zwei unblockables work within the system. There are 2 basic types of unblockables:

Guard Crush related unblockables use either Ein or Zwei to guard crush and the other to hit during said guard crush. I don't know if ein has any guard crushes, all the ones I've seen are related to Zwei using a guard crush and having Ein hitting right after.

Hit level unblockables are the ones that have unexpected properties. The basis is to hit low/mid at the same time. This is still going to be susceptible to GI, also if you GI either it disperses ein and gives Zwei the effect of being GIed.

There is a unique property to Zwei that I remember Yoshi calling trip guard. Basically moves with trip guard will hit low during another moves hit, but moves without will hit special low during another moves block stun. So faster poke moves like 2K will not be viable for hit level unblockables, but slower moves like 11A will be.
 

TerminusEst13

[09] Warrior
Maybe I suck playing as him, but Zwei seems like a hella unsafe char. He doesn't really have any good pokes or decent lows, and so many of his attacks have a hilariously slow startup time.
He seems to have excellent damage potential with some brutal combos, but what's the point if they come out after ten minutes of inputting the buttons?
 

CappuccinoJak

[12] Conqueror
Maybe I suck playing as him, but Zwei seems like a hella unsafe char. He doesn't really have any good pokes or decent lows, and so many of his attacks have a hilariously slow startup time.
He seems to have excellent damage potential with some brutal combos, but what's the point if they come out after ten minutes of inputting the buttons?
A+B is all you'll need to give you the space/time to get your comboes started. it comes out relatively quickly and hits hard.

anyways, i didn't think i'd like ZWEI at first but i love him now. i still hate him as a character but i love his style. it's much more fun than i thought he'd be.

he seems best at mid-range i suppose because it's just the right space to get EIN out without getting hit and sending EIN back. one quick question: what does the b+kA+B+K brave edge do? EIN comes out for a sec and then disappears. sometimes i notice him come back and punch the guy but it's so risky. if you get hit it'll be a waste of meter. i
 

sephalump

Video games kill people
This might become a more useful topic as our knowledge grows, and the best way to get it to grow is to share it. So here is where I'd like for all the discussion on Zwei/Ein unblockable set-ups and uses to go.
 

Twiz

Волк Одиночка
Figured I might as well bring this over here now that there is a forum for it.

4[A], Knife Fiend B, 3B-Guaranteed at all times and can lead to some nasty wall combos as well as be followed up with 1kA+B+K mid screen. Can be tricky to time but it's relatively easy once you get the hang of it.
44-It's unblockable but extremely slow. I haven't found any follow ups to it outside of wallsplat combos. But it can be released early for mixup so who knows. It may be useful if used properly during a match.

Still looking for some more but haven't found any yet.
 

Leshain

[12] Conqueror
Thanks for this Twiz and Sepha, any more tips? his damage may be nerfed but theres so much potential. since i suck with Cervantes now i might main ZWEI.
 

jackofcrowns

[08] Mercenary
It sets up a delayed EIN attack. You're then free to setup a mid/low mixup or dash around and attack from tep angles at once. The move itself seems very fast, I could see it used in play.
 

sephalump

Video games kill people
Thanks for this Twiz and Sepha, any more tips? his damage may be nerfed but theres so much potential. since i suck with Cervantes now i might main ZWEI.
I probably shouldn't say this as a Zwei mod but...Don't give up on CERVY! He's AMAZING this time around. I've put a little more time than I should practicing(iGDR feels more relaxed which is actually harder for me to do) but he's paying off so well and with such flash~.
Now for Zwei I've found out everyone swearing he's decent if you mix stuff up might be a bit right in that he can almost be viable with proper mix ups, it's just his risk reward is terrible. He has a lot of holes in his move set but you can use an opponent knowing them to your advantage. Yesterday I played a decent Zwei who would do 22B, I would go to quick step between the hits, and he would AA/2A/throw/ or quick step himself to avoid my buffered whiff punish.
 

BlackAlpha

[08] Mercenary
Hey guys, I'm gonna be maining ZWEI so I'll probably be around here a lot. We should get a top 10 move list going. So far I really like A+B, 4B, 33B A+B+K (as a step whiff punish). What do you guys think?
 

sephalump

Video games kill people
66K and 3K-safe mid body attacks to get through some pesky GI's, build a decent amount of meter
3A-Mildly unsafe mid stepkiller, can try to use shenanigans with the second hit but some keep can punish both with a tech crouching move I'd figure. Can BE for combos/pressure/to catch people who are smart enough to duck.
66B-Safe, albeit steppable, mid. knock down on NH. Can tech trap after some stuff like 1A. On hit you can tech trap with 3A.

66B-Safe mid. Can be used to approach. The canned follow up can be ducked but if they duck they give up the advantage on block it would've given. Keep in mind...and this is some bullshit, you can EASILY react to the high. It's ridiculous tbh. That said a lot of people currently just duck as soon as they see 66B. Enjoy it while it lasts. =\

6B-not a throw out there move but its the only Zwei move that can punish moves with some pushback(like his A+B). IDK the frames but it's a fast high with decent-ish range and on hit gives enough advantage that 1B trades with his AA and throws beat it. On CH you get a tiny stun. Can't seem to combo off but you get a mix ups/re-establish spacing.

1B- On its own its a safe decent range mid. Once your opponent stops acting like you're going to bring out Ein by twitch ducking you can start doing just that. Keep in mind the mixup isn't in his favor and I like 1B just as a go to poke.

6A+B- You'd be AMAZED at the shit you can do with this move. Some people(myself included) go on autopilot upon seeing 1B and just go for in iWR tech crouch mid for solid damage. So 1B->6A+B stops that. It also gets you out of pesky strings like Aeon/Cerv BBB(you should probably just QS though). That said it only catches mids. Throws, highs, and lows will still nail you. Adjust with your opponent.

B/(B)-Very good pushback, NCC for 45~ damage. Decent speed. Cannot be QS'd between the hits, can however be Auto-GI-ed so it's a bit gimmicky. Which is why B is there too. By doing this you can keep your opponent guessing and randomly throwing out Auto-GI's. Means advantage is heavily in your favor again. I tested this with Zwei vs Zwei and if they 6A+B you after seeing B you get a free 3aA+B+K or 3B.

iWS Moves- iWS B is his go to launcher imho. Linear and slower than 3B it seems, but I can't 6B/AA it at all. On top of that you have iWS A to catch them if they start stepping when you enter crouch. iWS K is just a poke I like to throw out. If they start attacking you with a quick mid then you can do things like g2->QS, or G2->6A+B. Also have our FC A and throws. If they start 2A-ing there's 9B or just block, they just gave up advantage.

8A+B- I like to play around with it. It's slower, linear, not much damage. It is however safe with a tech jump, but it starts pretty slow tbh. I just like it when I'm anticipating a grab.

9B-Safe on block, more or less instant tech jump. 25 Damage.

66A- Safe but Slowish anti step move, short range like most of Zwei's stuff. It works though. Knockdown on any type of hit, some acceptable damage.

Throws- Our main mix up tool. Not as much damage as most other characters, but we get a solid combo off A throw for some meter or you can settle with 4A for no meter, a total of 34 damage, and pushing them out a bit. Can catch people stepping. B-Throw, for some ungodly reason, uses up Ein for a bit so you can't use him right after. Dumb, but yeah.

6A-Decent anti step tool. Slowish, high, doesn't catch his right if quick stepped that way. Good range for Zwei. But 3A kind of covers those weaknesses. Make sure you mix them up properly.

Idk that's pretty much all the moves I use outside of some other stuff like 2K, 66A+B on grounds, 33bA+B+K whiff punishes when I've got 150% meter for that monster CE combo etc.
 

sephalump

Video games kill people
4KB is pretty good. Natural combo and knocks down, allowing for some Ein setups.
Eh I don't like it. Starts high, pretty unsafe(can BB/CE it), linear. At least you can't quick step or aGI between the hits though. Landing a 1B and 2B would yield the same damage for less risk imho.
 

jackofcrowns

[08] Mercenary
As a new player who wants to actually become proficient, the biggest question I have is this: How do you beat mash? Because that's a lot of what I experience online. Most notably Kilik B spam. As a new player, I panick and eat shit. What's the best advice on how to beat mash play in a disciplined manner?
 

BlackAlpha

[08] Mercenary
66K and 3K-safe mid body attacks to get through some pesky GI's, build a decent amount of meter
3A-Mildly unsafe mid stepkiller, can try to use shenanigans with the second hit but some keep can punish both with a tech crouching move I'd figure. Can BE for combos/pressure/to catch people who are smart enough to duck.
66B-Safe, albeit steppable, mid. knock down on NH. Can tech trap after some stuff like 1A. On hit you can tech trap with 3A.

66B-Safe mid. Can be used to approach. The canned follow up can be ducked but if they duck they give up the advantage on block it would've given. Keep in mind...and this is some bullshit, you can EASILY react to the high. It's ridiculous tbh. That said a lot of people currently just duck as soon as they see 66B. Enjoy it while it lasts. =\

6B-not a throw out there move but its the only Zwei move that can punish moves with some pushback(like his A+B). IDK the frames but it's a fast high with decent-ish range and on hit gives enough advantage that 1B trades with his AA and throws beat it. On CH you get a tiny stun. Can't seem to combo off but you get a mix ups/re-establish spacing.

1B- On its own its a safe decent range mid. Once your opponent stops acting like you're going to bring out Ein by twitch ducking you can start doing just that. Keep in mind the mixup isn't in his favor and I like 1B just as a go to poke.

6A+B- You'd be AMAZED at the shit you can do with this move. Some people(myself included) go on autopilot upon seeing 1B and just go for in iWR tech crouch mid for solid damage. So 1B->6A+B stops that. It also gets you out of pesky strings like Aeon/Cerv BBB(you should probably just QS though). That said it only catches mids. Throws, highs, and lows will still nail you. Adjust with your opponent.

B/(B)-Very good pushback, NCC for 45~ damage. Decent speed. Cannot be QS'd between the hits, can however be Auto-GI-ed so it's a bit gimmicky. Which is why B is there too. By doing this you can keep your opponent guessing and randomly throwing out Auto-GI's. Means advantage is heavily in your favor again. I tested this with Zwei vs Zwei and if they 6A+B you after seeing B you get a free 3aA+B+K or 3B.

iWS Moves- iWS B is his go to launcher imho. Linear and slower than 3B it seems, but I can't 6B/AA it at all. On top of that you have iWS A to catch them if they start stepping when you enter crouch. iWS K is just a poke I like to throw out. If they start attacking you with a quick mid then you can do things like g2->QS, or G2->6A+B. Also have our FC A and throws. If they start 2A-ing there's 9B or just block, they just gave up advantage.

8A+B- I like to play around with it. It's slower, linear, not much damage. It is however safe with a tech jump, but it starts pretty slow tbh. I just like it when I'm anticipating a grab.

9B-Safe on block, more or less instant tech jump. 25 Damage.

66A- Safe but Slowish anti step move, short range like most of Zwei's stuff. It works though. Knockdown on any type of hit, some acceptable damage.

Throws- Our main mix up tool. Not as much damage as most other characters, but we get a solid combo off A throw for some meter or you can settle with 4A for no meter, a total of 34 damage, and pushing them out a bit. Can catch people stepping. B-Throw, for some ungodly reason, uses up Ein for a bit so you can't use him right after. Dumb, but yeah.

6A-Decent anti step tool. Slowish, high, doesn't catch his right if quick stepped that way. Good range for Zwei. But 3A kind of covers those weaknesses. Make sure you mix them up properly.

Idk that's pretty much all the moves I use outside of some other stuff like 2K, 66A+B on grounds, 33bA+B+K whiff punishes when I've got 150% meter for that monster CE combo etc.

Great stuff here sepha, once I get off work I'm going to be doing more tech trap testing as well. I had a question, what does QS mean? Last time I played SC since 5 was like 2 years ago (competitively at least) so I'm crap on the terminology (too much SF4 haha).

Also, I'm loving the 33B BE into CE combo, its crazy good.

I really wish you could do more off his A throw but you have very limited time. Also wished they had more with his knife stance but oh well
 

jackofcrowns

[08] Mercenary
Quick step. Ie sidestep dashing. Wha is a tech trap? Like frame traps from Sf4? I too am bad with the SCV jargon, as a SF player.
 

Twiz

Волк Одиночка
Quick step. Ie sidestep dashing. Wha is a tech trap? Like frame traps from Sf4? I too am bad with the SCV jargon, as a SF player.
A tech trap is an attack that is unavoidable on wake up. Usually part of a combo that causes damage to reset for that particular move. For example Rugi's 8WR A+B into 1A from SC IV. Although it can also be a move that you use to follow up after a knockdown or stun that catches the opponent mid wake up but will wiff if the opponent doesn't move. For example Cassandra's CH 2A+B, 4B into 2A+G/B+G.
 

Silmerion

[09] Warrior
So, Z.W.E.I. is slow, is easy to step, and has poor range - in short, he's not very good at controlling space. That means that, as a Z.W.E.I. player, it's going to be essential to know how to control it as best as you can, because you really don't have a lot to fall back on if you fail. I'd like to get that conversation started.

Contributors besides yours truly:
Shinsokugai
C_3
Richard Nguyen


In close/getting out of pressure
K: Comes out fast, pushes the opponent back slightly on hit.
2A: I think this is Z.W.E.I.'s quickest low. Seems to give a bit of frame advantage on hit.
4A: Fast, fast, fast. Sets up E.I.N. mix-ups/unblockables if you've trained your opponent to turtle.

Mid-range spacing
6A: Great for fishing for counter hits. CH 6A combos into super for solid damage. Start-up is just a little slow, so try to throw this out at tip range.
A+B: Fast start-up, hits like a truck. Heck of a punisher.
3A: Slow-ish, but has a weird hitbox that will duck things sometimes. 3aA+B+K combos into super.
K: Was good in close, is still good here.
3B: Slow for a launcher. Seems best used as a frame trap.
4A/4[A]: See above.
1B/1[ B ]: Leads into E.I.N. mix-ups and solid damage. Try to keep your opponent off-guard by switching up 1[ B ]hold and 1[ B ]iR.

Long range
Approaching with Z.W.E.I. can feel tough, but you have a couple of options.
66BA: Long range, natural combo, the second attack tracks to both sides. Solid engage.
66A+B: Long start-up and easily stepped, but if you can set it up, it gives frame advantage on block and leads into a very damaging combo on hit.
6A: Carefully strafing in and throwing this out can make it safe for you to get into mid-range, where you're strongest. Be careful that the opponent doesn't duck this.