Zwei pessimist discussion

[Uber1337]

ZWEI is tourney viable. He is not low tier. I think he is high tier, not top, but very strong. Totally possible to win and place top 8 at majors.

Wow, I didn't think you'd take it that far Belial. High tier? Really? I just don't see how that is at all possible. Too much of his stuff is gimmicky, and his match-ups against top tier are pretty bad. Also, this is in a game where there aren't a lot of bad characters. Exactly which characters do you think he is better than? I'd say he's better than Damp and probably Raph. You could maybe try to make the argument that he was better than Aeon, Ezio, or Tira, but I'm not sure if i'd buy that argument.

I think its pretty telling that the best Zwei players can't seem to do very well in big tourneys right now, while there is still plenty of ignorance going around. As people start to wise up, its going to become even harder than it is now to win tournament matches with Zwei. It may be true that a Zwei could place top 8 at one of the smaller majors, but you won't see that happen at EVO or anything big like that. Plus, if a player did place top 8 at a major with Zwei, I bet that player would have placed much better using a different character (Maybe you would have won that streamed tourney if you had used Mitsu?).

Now my Zwei is pretty damn good. I have only really encountered one other Zwei that could even keep up with me. But even still, when I look at my Zwei, I just know that I would be able to kick my own ass with my Maxi. My tools with Maxi are just so much stronger and they can easily shift the risk/reward away from Zwei. And Maxi is generally considered mid to high-mid tier, so saying Zwei is high tier seems pretty rediculous.

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

no just no...66BA and 66B mixups do not work. Yeah im really curious why some of zwei players think he's mid or high tier like what tools do u guys use?

 

[ka_kui]

no just no...66BA and 66B mixups do not work. Yeah im really curious why some of zwei players think he's mid or high tier like what tools do u guys use?

what kind of mixup is that??....XD

the 2 variations can be blocked standing....and one of them is punishable....trololol.....learn to mixup man.

A proper mixup involve your oponent guessing what attack you will do....try to use lows and mediums to mixup.....they will be guessing the need to block standing/crouching....but no standing/standing...XD

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

what kind of mixup is that??....XD

the 2 variations can be blocked standing....and one of them is punishable....trololol.....learn to mixup man.

A proper mixup involve your oponent guessing what attack you will do....try to use lows and mediums to mixup.....they will be guessing the need to block standing/crouching....but no standing/standing...XD

Im just saying whoever uses 66B and 66BA and think its effectice well its not effective...

 

[DrDogg]

Okay, let me break down all of the common tools that most ZWEI players think are good. Keep in mind, I use all of these tools and *hope* the opponent is ignorant of their faults. But that ignorance is only going to last so long.

4A
+ Great tech crouch!
+ Leads to big damage under the right circumstances.
+ Unblockable setup.
- If ZWEI's attack whiffs, the opponent gets a free interrupt no matter what.
- The opponent can step the Ein follow-up before ZWEI can do anything to stop it.
- If the Ein follow-up is delayed, the opponent can interrupt on reaction before ZWEI can do anything.

22_88K
- Punishable on block (minor) and high.
- Should pretty much only be used with Ein to cover or to punish after a good step.

22_88BB
- Almost no tracking.
- Only NCC and even then the second hit whiffs quite a bit.
- Punishable on block (minor for most characters).

4B~BE
+ Leads to big damage under the right circumstances.
+/- One of ZWEI's best punishment tools, but still relatively slow and lacks range.
- When used outside of a combo, this is 100% gimmick, especially when it nets a wall hit or ring out.
- Not much damage given the fact that you have to use meter to even attempt the gimmick.

A+G
+ Leads to big damage under the right circumstances.
- There's no reason anyone should ever break anything other than A against ZWEI unless he has no meter.

66BA
- Super linear and easy to step.
- Slow.
- Tech crouch isn't very reliable compared to other similar attacks.
- 66B is -17 and easily punished.
- 66BA is high and should never hit if 66B is blocked.

3AA
+ Easily hit-confirmed into decent damage.
- Short range.
- 3A is -17 and easily punished.
- 3AA is high and should never hit if 3A is blocked.

6A+B
+ GIs all mids!
- One of the slowest executing GIs in the game. :(

66A+B
+ Leads to big damage under the right circumstances.
+ Unblockable setup.
- Unsafe on block and relatively slow to execute.
- Limited to grounded opponents.
- Ein attack is steppable on reaction if for some reason the opponent doesn't/can't punish the first attack.

1B(K)
+ Leads to big damage under the right circumstances.
+ Great if the opponent techs incorrectly or stays grounded.
+ Great range!
- Both of ZWEI's attacks are easily stepped.
- Ein's attack is duckable on reaction.

Special Concern
- All of Ein's attacks* count as horizontals when it comes to auto-GIs. This gives ZWEI a ridiculously hard match-up against characters with good horizontal auto-GIs (Xiba, Yoshi, Sieg, etc.). Against a good one who knows the ZWEI match-up, you're pretty much forced to limit your use of Ein, which severely limits ZWEI overall.
*I didn't test 6B+K because I rarely use it.

What am I missing that you guys would like me to cover?

 

[ka_kui]

Im just saying whoever uses 66B and 66BA and think its effectice well its not effective...

66B is realy efective on okizeme.....you can catch rolling oponents...and punish on block a lot of attacks that have pushback, that other characters can't punish.....like Ivy's 8A+B[ B ].

Never do the 66BA if you know the oponent will duck......just use 66B to fish for counters, meanwhile you zoning with zwei.

After a succesfull 4[A] EIN CH hit, you have a guaranteed 66BA....etc etc.

sorry for my bad english

 

[DrDogg]

66B is realy efective on okizeme.....you can catch rolling oponents...and punish on block a lot of attacks that have pushback, that other characters can't punish.....like Ivy's 8A+B[ B ].

Never do the 66BA if you know the oponent will duck......just use 66B to fish for counters, meanwhile you zoning with zwei.

What?

66B is i23... that's not fast. Yes, it's can punish Ivy's attack that's -28, but again, that's a lack of knowledge. Ivy players shouldn't be using it against ZWEI. It doesn't punish many attacks that are used a lot at range.

66B is -17. Most characters don't even care if you use the second hit or not. They'll use a move that tech crouches fast enough to avoid it and still punish the 66B. Again, if you're not getting punished for using 66B alone, it's a lack of knowledge from the opponent, not "a great tool for ZWEI".

 

[ka_kui]

Just a few players play with frame data knowledge....and for that few players, not all of them remembers all the punishables on block for all the characters, i saw the last tournaments and when zwei players use 66B i dont saw any punish on block to that attack, yeah in paper is not safe, but what are you talking about, online is too dificult find high level players....if at a high level play they dont punish that attack, online let me lol.

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

with all these negatives on zwei it makes me wonder why some of u guys think he isn't a bottom char. Overall me and Dr.dogg aren't trying to destroy this thread...we're simply saying that these setups so far that we seen from tourney vids..and the fact that some people say they work well against a person who know's zwei, well no they don't work at all.

 

[ka_kui]

with all these negatives on zwei it makes me wonder why some of u guys think he isn't a bottom char. Overall me and Dr.dogg aren't trying to destroy this thread...we're simply saying that these setups so far that we seen from tourney vids..and the fact that some people say they work well against a person who know's zwei, well no they don't work at all.

well like Belial say....if you find ZWEI so bad character or dificult to play.....change character and that's all.

other thing that DrDogg say...."Ivy players shouldn't be using it against ZWEI."...thats equal to a very good attack, that make some characters to stop doing some moves to you ;)

 

[StormriderAngel]

Wait....you guys just said that 66B is pretty punishable. Which means players will try to punish it, right? which means if you eventually come in with the A, its going to hit those who try to punish? What the hell am I missing where this shit often works for me and NEVER works for you? Either way, all this guaranteed failure has been theory and it will still take time to get solid evidence of it either way.

I just can't stand that these great matches posted at the beginning of the thread have been reduced to a Weakling fighting Ignoramuses. It really undermines the effort and talent shown there and that the players had not much to do with the out come. If lose with ZWEI, its because he sucks, if you win with ZWEI it's because the opponent sucks.

Wait...on paper those sound a lot like scrub excuses. Must only be my imagination

 

[DrDogg]

Wait....you guys just said that 66B is pretty punishable. Which means players will try to punish it, right? which means if you eventually come in with the A, its going to hit those who try to punish? What the hell am I missing where this shit often works for me and NEVER works for you? Either way, all this guaranteed failure has been theory and it will still take time to get solid evidence of it either way.

66B is -17. The A followup is high. Someone who knows the matchup will block 66B, then use a tech crouching attack. If you stop at 66B, you get hit with the attack. If you continue with the A, the attack tech crouches under it and you still get hit.

As I said before, I use all of these gimmicks and I hope that the opponent lacks matchup knowledge. However, most of my top local players and even my online training partners know how to get around ZWEI's gimmicks.

I'll talk to one of my friends and see if I can get a match recorded of me using all of these gimmicks and getting owned for it.

 

[Aziz]

oh god!! I really hate this SA because of all the stupid whiners who dont know shit about this game!! if u feel zwei is lacking then go and play someone else, go and never come here again unless you stop your stupid whining!!

^and 66B is -12, get your facts right

 

[Uber1337]

oh god!! I really hate this SA because of all the stupid whiners who dont know shit about this game!! if u feel zwei is lacking then go and play someone else, go and never come here again unless you stop your stupid whining!!

^and 66B is -12, get your facts right

I don't think any good players really main him anymore (except Toilet). He's more of a fun character for most at this point because he really is lacking. Is it really so bad to be upset that a character you enjoy playing is not really tournament viable?

 

[StormriderAngel]

Is it really so bad to be upset that a character you enjoy playing is not really tournament viable?

Yes. It is. At least when that's all you have to post about the character on most of the SA. It's even worse in a thread that was actually building hype for the poor bastard. There are already, I believe, 2 threads dedicated to his suckyness, not including the repetitive loads of complaints made before hand.

If patch 1.03 taught anything is that these complaints get us nowhere. Hell, if anything the more complaints there are, less positive information gets posted, the less people attempt to play him, and even less of the genuine complaints get heard.

 

[Aziz]

I don't think any good players really main him anymore (except Toilet). He's more of a fun character for most at this point because he really is lacking. Is it really so bad to be upset that a character you enjoy playing is not really tournament viable?

this attitude is what I hate the most!! I main him and I'm good player weather u know me or not, Belial showed us very good zwei and u still think zwei is weak and lacking, Belial made great guide for zwei u still screaming about enlighten you. If u can't use the character then quit whining about him!!

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

im done replying to this thread. Not helping the thread if all im gonna do is debate back and forth all day...Goodluck to those trying to place high with him at tourneys, would love for someone to prove me wrong about his setups and tier placement....(doubt it) and Dr.Dogg and Uber I think it's best if we either get off topic about zwei lacking or stop replying to this thread. Because this really isn't the thread to be discussing his weaknesses :/ if other's think he is good and they found some good setups well that's them then.

 

[DrDogg]

oh god!! I really hate this SA because of all the stupid whiners who dont know shit about this game!! if u feel zwei is lacking then go and play someone else, go and never come here again unless you stop your stupid whining!!

ZWEI is fun, that's why I play him and want him to be tournament viable. I come here to see what you guys are doing so I can better understand what makes him so good in your eyes.

Instead of discussing the matter like adults, and figuring out what really works and how to make this character good, you'd rather say I'm whining and don't know shit about the game. I'd actually say you're doing more harm in this topic than I am. Thanks for that.

Just to make you feel better, I'll go back to not posting in here... which is what I've done for the last month or so. Stay ignorant.

^and 66B is -12, get your facts right

Then the guide is wrong (not the first time) or I misread it. My apologies. Either way, it's still unsafe and my original statement still stands. The only difference is that ZWEI won't be punished quite as hard... but he'll still be punished and it's still not a very good attack for this reason.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

I like how all these "know it all scrubs" have NO idea who they are talking to when calling people out. just reading the last couple pages gives me little hope for these kids. All this patch stuff dont matter to those that will never play in a tourney anyway. So most of yall are bitching for nothing.

I just felt the need to come in here and troll a little. Im done know. Thanks for calling!

 

[Azazel]

And they say Sieg players are crybabies...ZWEI has great potential, definitively on par with Siegfried but every freaking player has to put his main as trash, all you read in SAs is people crying cause their main suck...I have seen complains even from Alpha...THA FUCK guys. I will main ZWEI eventually cause I see great potential but if I'm unable to use him as I should or he does not adjust to my playstyle I will drop him, but I won't come here crying cause he is sooooo low tier. Freaking face it already if is not Raph or Damp is tourney viable, this awesome game has great balance and every character (except those two) can win and is NOT! a matter of knowing or not the MU and by the way for those talking shit about Omega no knowing the MU vs Toilet, you are so wrong...he knows ZWEI, the reason why he had a hard time was because Toilet is awesome and ZWEI too.