Character Matchup Tier Project

Hilde vs Voldo is in Hilde's favor. Runis over exaggerated the Voldo's lack of anti step some what but there is truth to what he said. If someone is on point with Hildes step there is very little Voldo can do to stop her from stepping. 22k, aa, and 22a are some of the very few options Voldo will have and all of them hold some risk. Although if hilde's step is off a little Voldo can use 3a to stop step. But can Voldo's semi linear ways be a problem in this matchup? definitely. Hilde vs Voldo is more like 6v4 in Hilde's favor though.
 
S-U and Wing_Zero: I'm sure we all agree that WS B and Asura are primary tools for Kilik. Am I correct in my assumption that WS B_K and FC 3B are Kilik's primary punishment tools from a crouched position? Also, just to verify, is 6AA Kilik's fastest punisher from standing?

What tools do you feel Kilik has in the Yoshi v. Kilik fight?
 
Alex. J: That sounds so much better. I guess i'm gonna experiment more with that matchup.

Hajime: Asura is not necessary as part of Kilik's game. It's just an alternative to a regular GI which will give the same damage except Asura is guranteed.

You would be correct with WS K, FC 3B, and WS B being his most noticable tools from crouched position.

WS B and FC 3B can be used with discretion also outside of punishing to create space for Kilik. FC 3B can also be used as a GI bait trap. It's also +3- on hit.

Yes Kilik's fastest punisher would be 6AA or 46B at i13-Frames. However his best standing option is i14-Frames aB. Most things worth punishing on block are usually more than -13-Frames and create some distance in some cases making 6AA whiff so i14-Frames aB is actually better. I have been trying to see if its in anyway possible to hit-confirm the B after aB on CH because its an easy 54-Damage option but so far it doesn't seem that way. I have seen some at first glance impossible hit-confirm things in other games like SF or Tekken so i'm reserving judgement on whether it really isn't.

Ivy's 9B from SW stance is an example of aB being the better option for punishment.

Its also good for zoning at range if u need something quick, and the tracking on it isn't that bad either.

I will be testing some Kilik vs. Yoshi at an NY session this week so I will let u know more in depth how well Yoshi can negate Kilik's zoning options.

Off the back of my head though 4A is good here but I think thats more universal than anything as opposed to character specific. Its high but safe, tracks for the most part, good SG damage, and places Kilik in FC allowing for mindgames to continue with WSB/WSA preferablly if ur using it at the zoning range or just cancel it out. It also has some stepping properties though its not as significant as say 1B.
 
HajimeOwari said:
S-U and Wing_Zero: I'm sure we all agree that WS B and Asura are primary tools for Kilik. Am I correct in my assumption that WS B_K and FC 3B are Kilik's primary punishment tools from a crouched position? Also, just to verify, is 6AA Kilik's fastest punisher from standing?

What tools do you feel Kilik has in the Yoshi v. Kilik fight?
Click to expand...

Only WS B and spacing
But it's solid vs Yoshi. Personallly I think Kilik's adv is GROSSLY exagerrated here. Kilik is WEAK at punishing. 6AA, 46B, 6B8 are his fastest attacks, all are weak on normal hit. Yoshi's 33BB+K and 66K does him really well in this matchup. There's no clean cut way for Kilik to stop good application of 33B+K, trying to Asura it is a monumental risk i tihnk.
 
S-U: Here's my take on things.

- WS B and Kilik's other spacing tools (i.e. 6B) can be neutralized primarily by stomp.

- Kilik lacks really powerful punishment tools, empowering the Yoshi player to play slightly more unsafe. This is especially true with Yoshi's lows.

- iMCF allows Yoshi to apply pressure once inside. Asura and other TJing moves beat iMCF on anticipation. 9K is safe and beats Asura on anticipation with a potential ~50 damage. Yoshi gets at least ~50 damage when punishing Asura; even GB Asura.

- Yoshi can punish several Kilik strings with 214 A (TCs, slightly steps). Any strings with lows (i.e. 66AA) or highly visible lows can be TJed and then punished with DGF K combos or FLE K combos. Yoshi also has his a i11 punisher (AA), solid i15 punisher (6K2K), and i17 punisher (3B) that can deal with unsafe attacks.

Those are the generals advantages I feel Yoshi has in the match-up. Of course, this is all theory fighter. My experience comes primarily from KrayzieCD's Kilik and Soakrates' Kilik. What do you two feel Kilik has in this match-up that makes it 5/5 as opposed to it being, say, 6/4 in Yoshi's favor?

hotnikkelz said:
Only WS B and spacing.
Click to expand...

Stomp. Nuff said!
 
Rock vs Mina. Obviously I'm missing something here, since I play both characters but haven't had the chance to play them against each other, but I cannot see it being so heavily in Mina's favour. Clearly Mina has better range, her anti-step isn't so hot, especially at range. Rock's 6B+K will beat all of her lows. Maybe he can't punish 6BB and BBB spam well? I'll defer to people who have some experience, but still.

I still think Rock is about even with Yun, though. He can beat crane easily enough, since his best moves around that range aren't Bs, and he gets free ground throws if he can interrupt with 6K.

Also, from waaaaaay back: Rock vs Hilde / Astaroth vs Hilde.

Rock vs Hilde - Rock loses his best throw and one of his main tech catching mixups (2B+G). Hilde loses full doom combo.
Astaroth vs Hilde - Astaroth loses nothing? Hilde loses full doom combo.

Now, I can't say whether Astaroth has a major advantage over Hilde, but I'm quite certain he has more of an advantage than Rock. Even IF Rock didn't lose one of his best moves, he's just not as good as Astaroth to begin with.
 
first post updated. quite a few things this time

- most of ceirnian's hilde matchups added
- some more raph matchups added. raph vs nightmare no longer 5-5, changed to 6-4 raph adv
- maxi vs amy now 7-3 amy favor. maxi vs raph now 6-4 raph favor
- some sieg matchups added from KDZ. going to get IceColdeEdge second opinion if possible (sent him a PM)
- some kilik matches added

more overall rankings totals added. keep in mind some of the characters with totals do not have as many matchups ranked as others (for example, setsuka and algol dont have as many ranked)

all yoshi matches seem in a lot of debate now for some reason. just felt like mentioning that
 
I suppose I should just post one of these:

Algol: 5/5
Amy: Feels like 5.5 / 4.5
Appr: ???
Asta: 6/4??
Cass: 5/5
Cerv: 5/5
Hilde: 4/6
Ivy: 5/5 ???
Kilik: 5/5 (up for debate, though)
Liz: 6/4
Maxi: 6/4
Mina: ???
Mitsu: 5/5 (possibly 6/4 due to have strong punishers versus Mitsu)
Night: 5.5 / 4.5
Raph: 6/4 ???
Rock: 6/4 ???
Sets: 4/6
Sieg: 6/4
Soph: 5/5
Taki: 6.5/ 3.5. iMCF is that good in this matchup.
Talim: ???
Tira: ???
Vader: ???
Voldo: 5/5 (hard to say for certain, though)
Xiang: 5/5
Yoda: 6/4
Yun: 6/4
Zas: ???
 
page said:
Rock vs Hilde - Rock loses his best throw and one of his main tech catching mixups (2B+G). Hilde loses full doom combo.
Click to expand...

explain the rock loses his best throw/main tech catch mixups... i clearly don't understand this.

-LAU
 
Lau, 2B+G doesn't throw Hilde properly. It seems like he throws her off axis, meaning a lot of your follow ups will whiff. Kinda annoying since you only get 1A guaranteed.
 
page said:
Rock vs Mina. Obviously I'm missing something here, since I play both characters but haven't had the chance to play them against each other, but I cannot see it being so heavily in Mina's favour. Clearly Mina has better range, her anti-step isn't so hot, especially at range. Rock's 6B+K will beat all of her lows. Maybe he can't punish 6BB and BBB spam well? I'll defer to people who have some experience, but still.
Click to expand...

Although Mina's step killing tools aren't exactly the best in the game, her 22A, 2A, and to a lesser extent her AA, 66A and 3A are enough to get the job done here. Mina also has a very good back dash, not Algol good, but still. After anything that isn't too bad on block or that has decent push back, like 44A+B or 66A+B, she can usually back dash out of Rock's throw/3B/low sweep range, which can really mess with his mix up game. Simple things like blocked 44A+B into back dash 3B can really punish Rock for trying to attack post-block. Rock's 6B+K can and will beat her lows, but you shouldn't be using them so much that it becomes an issue.

Even if Rock gets close, Mina is still okay. She can use her back dash and 4A to retreat relatively safely or she can try and mix things up against Rock using moves like 66A, 6AK, 6B+K and of course her lows like 3A+B and iFC1KK. The point here is that Rock can't bully her up close the way people like Amy can. Even if she is knocked down, 9K offers her a reasonable wake up option, because it jumps Rock's throws and low sweep. Eve if she is hit out of it, Rock doesn't get much and given that 9K is -10 on block, he can't really punish her for it either.

I could post a fuller analysis, but I don't think anyone wants to read an even longer wall of text. PM me if you want to discuss this a bit more, because we Mina players have to stick together.
 
tiers and matchups are for pussy's .. you need to watch this video:
its how you win!!!


p.s dont flame me for this for you more serious types out there im obviously joking..
 
Rock vs Mina is 6/4 in Rock's favor.

The problem lies with Mina in this matchup is her inability to deal with bullrush adequately. She also lacks strong TC to thwart throws, so she's left with attempting to break/duck throws, or gamble any of her unsafe TCs which Rock punishes effortlessly. His bulrush nullifies her spacing game to a large extent, and 6K is troublesome for her as she can only punish with K reliably. Rock's 6B+K is strong as well vs her, cuz she cannot punish it HARD like other characters can. Her step is also a bit small to 'lucky' step bullrush either. She has absolutely no advantages in this matchup. Rock deals with her quite comfortably and yes he still bullies her.
22A is high, and Rock uses bullrush and 6K often
2A is very linear although it's horizontal
AA is duckable double high and slow (ps u can't hit confirm first A and do 2nd)
66A is ok, but then Rock is in throw range when he blocks, and autoGIs won't save u
3A is only good at tip range, and when it's blocked u are again in throw range. On shallow block, it's terribly unsafe.
4A for spacing, vs bullrush and 6B+K, isn't in her favor in the slightest, she gets what 12-18 dmg?
6B+K is duckable double high = death, only useful for punishment
3A+B = death on block, and it's blockable on reaction. Not very fast. Everything is guaranteed on block.
FC 1KK = same issue
6AK lacks range, and the high K is problematic vs TCing bullrush. Pitiful damage.
In wakeup vs Rock, 9K is a gamble for pitiful damage. In almost every knockdown situation, 3B is uninterruptable for example. You may get away one or twice with it, but then what.

Runis:
Rock easily gets 2G+B -> 9B-> 6B+K vs hilde. He may not get B+K, but 9B is by far stronger anyway, common knowledge for Rock players i hope. If she JUkemi's after, he gets crouch throw tech trap. This is an even matchup. Rock will muscle through with bullrush, and she can't rely on her doom combo here. He has it far better than other characters.
 
I feel like NM vs. Kilik is still 5/5. Kilik's 1A is his main TC tool against NM and it's pretty fast too (i14-i15). I think this matchup boils down to who can step punish more (NM with 33B, Kilik with step A+B).
 
I think Nightmare has better tracking and whiff punishing than Kilik. Good point about 1A though. I'll try to get Shen Rii in here for his thoughts and info, cause I know he has a ton. We'll have more discussion about it and change it if needed.

edit: just adding the statement that it would not be super hard to convince me it's 5-5. i only recently decided to push it to 6-4 and it was pushed by my talks with some other players, so yeah. argue a bit more and you can probably get it changed unless Rii comes in with something that convinces you otherwise.
 
Kilik vs Maxi

Again an exagerrated matchup. I'd like to hear WHY this is so heavily in Kilik's favor S-U. It's more like 5-5...nowhere close to the Maxi vs Amy/Sets/Cervy which are probably his worst matchups.

Fact #1 Kilik's AD is so slow, that Maxi can easily G and block it from stances then punish the 1st, 2nd or 3rd hit on block with B+K. He can easily bait Asura. Easy 67 dmg for maxi if u can pull off jf. At least 51. nb. This happens even when the intiator INTO stance is BLOCKED!

Fact #2 MO A whiffs a LOT vs Maxi

Fact #3 At the blockstun maxi is normally at -5 -> 8, WS B is steppable to both sides, which on whiff gives free B+K

Fact #4 Kilik's fastest attacks are all high and weak unless 46B hits on CH. 1K although mid is vertical (disadvantage)

Fact #5 Maxi's 33K and 66B variations completely destroys AD, and suprisingly, 1B beats AD at such a large window of varying advs and disadvantages that it's not even funny. You have to play this matchup to see this. 66B4 vs air hti on Asura does insane damage if u AC incorrectly.

Fact #5 Maxi is one of those characters that can step and interrupts AD with B+K when he tries to realign, it's VERY easy for Maxi to step AD when he's poking. WS B gets stepped just as easy as well. Guaranteeing B+K AND 236K on whiff once in range.

Fact #6 Kilik can't punish Maxi well unless he blocks his slow recovering lows. He can't even punish RO B properly

Fact #7 Kilik's 4A+B gets too much praise for its realignment tracking, did u know if u stepped the first, anyone with a decent AA CHs, Maxi is no exception.

Fact #8 Kilik can thwart 4BB abuse with Asura...and even then that fails to LO A (and on CH too) in every circumstance or maxi can block and punish anyway. Hell he can't even punish 4Bg from maxi properly. his fastest punishers vs maxi's stance game are all vertical and makes the risk reward for maxi using WL IF he DOES use it very favorable.

I'll get to my 2cents on Hilde momentarily and also I'd like to hear specifics on Maxi vs Cerv from Hates if it's not too much trouble.
 
Tiamat:

I saw some of but not all the vids of Nightmare vs. Kilik that u mentioned.

Keev vs. Nightmare is actually the most interesting because those matches look almost even from both sides. Both players weren't to far off from skill level between each other so that also helps. The interesting here though is just recently in the Kilik character discussion forums I was arguing why I thought his strategy MO A/Delayed FOTD was weak in my opinion and FC iFOTD/WS B/WSA was a better mixup. It's hard to explain unless u read it yourself and its on the last page like the last few posts.

The above vids only help confirm what the issue is. He is way to reliant on a 50/50 constant MO mixup in those vids stunting him more than helping him.

Then I saw you vs. Winback and the difference there is actually clear no offense to the Kilik player which is good but your clearly better and was getting away with things that he could have been better prepared for.

The other vids between ShenOu and Sheriii or something like that I have not seen yet.

So far i'm still at a 5/5 because personally while Nightmare vs. Kilik is tricky I have not had the same problems vs. him as everyone else. Honestly Hayate's Kilik doesn't seem from those vids to be outclassed at a 6/4 either.

hotnikkelz:

Have u actually been in a match where both players are playing there part in a Maxi/Kilik match. Once u learn Maxi shenanigans which is all he can do because he is so string scripted it becomes really really easy to pick him apart with Kilik. Asura's are easy to place, regular GI's are easy to place, any delay he does in his strings can be interrupted without a problem. In fact Kilik's 6AAA shines here when Maxi delays.

Even with all that I don't even need to explain this matchup because on paper it may seem like Maxi can be a better matchup for Kilik but ask any noteworthy Maxi player how hard that matchup is and they will tell you. KrayzieCD, and ATL-R3DD come to mind right away and I think Krayzie can really help you here.

Hajime: I will get back to u on the Yoshi part after this NY session for some testing because I have never had any major issues with Yoshi and I want to confirm the feeling of this matchup on Friday.

General Note:

It seems like everyone has the misconception that Kilik=Asura. I see and here it all the time. It couldn't be further from the truth. A counter will always be just a counter. Nothing more nothing less. It just helps that once it hits everything is guaranteed. Asura is actually more useful for its tech jumping applicatons.

Extra tidits:

Tiamat I wanted to show you a comparison of why Hilde vs. Algol is 5/5 and why Kilik vs. Algol is 6/4 but at the moment my PS3 is dead since it died last friday and I can't remember what notation is which for him so i'm gonna wait till friday for some testing at a session.
 
SU:
Point taken, though some people think Winback is a more skilled player than me. In any case, I'm leaning toward switching it back to 5-5. I'll wait for shen rii to say some stuff though, he's actually done more study with it than me. He beat Ou pretty badly in their matches but I think that's the biggest example of player skill gap, so it's easier to say it's 5-5 even if when you look at videos, nightmare is usually winning.

About Maxi:
Maxi being even matchup with kilik is gonna be a really hard sell. Personally I can't see it yet, would need video proof for something that debatable.

Maxi is currently the lowest ranked character in the chart. There are some matchups which norcal believes to be 8-2s or 7-3s that I really can't see. Without some good videos they will have to be content with maxi mostly having 4-6 disadvantages and some 3-7s.
 
Let me help with some of the explanations.

Siegfried vs Amy.
At first, it might seem like Amy is ready to shut down Siegfried, but that is a fallacy. Start with the most basic of basics; Amy's 6BB. This mighty move seems like more than a match for Siegfried due to the sheer speed of it, since it makes up for her having a crappy AA. In truth, this match more than almost any other benefits from 2_8 B+K. How many moves that aren't 1a does she really have to kill step quickly? Not only that, but her range is honestly atrocious. once you step out of her 6B range, she loses almost all her tools. She cant kill your step safely, she can't approach you without being steppable. Have you noticed it yet? The best Amy's are forced to resort to run up and guard against characters that can fight from mid-long range. Liberal use of iagA, 22_88B, B6, and the a+kA series, as well ah plenty of SBH and SSH are all you need to take this matchup away from her.
 
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