Official Discussion for SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

SU:
i personally dont think X should be in mid tier! if you know how to use stuff like one should with her, she is middle of upper mid at least. one word about X, safety.
 
IdleMind said:
Ramon, imo, is EASILY the best Sophie in the world. Show me another Sophie who consistently punishes whiffed throws with TAS B and I will eat my fucking hat.

At the point where you start throwing around 8-2 or 9-1, you better have some damn good reasoning for doing something like that; and honestly I'm just not seeing it (the reasoning).

-Idle
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Maybe because you can't read french ?
Or didn't bother to read the 93 pages of explanations ? =)
 
Saitoh said:
Maybe because you can't read french ?
Or didn't bother to read the 93 pages of explanations ? =)
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If you could enlighten me; that would cover my lack-of-french reading.
(Edit: I'm actually serious, I can't read french, so how would I know?)

-Idle
 
Synraii said:
OK - first of all, I'm primarily an offline player who among a few other dedicated players is working hard to resurrect the currently dead UK community, I have placed tournament grand finals as Siegfried and drive 200 miles for offline regularly - I am travelling 600 miles to EBO in Germany in July and when I get enough money will be travelling to France for offline regularly.
Let me respond with WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
A moderator flaming members for disagreeing with them? Paticularly the so called 'noob protector' using comments like 'some online scrub'... How very elitist of you idle.
Maybe you should think before you post next time hm?
:P
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This is gonna be the best post ever.

First of all, this is a tierlist debate thread. Wherein we discuss things that are subjective opinions based on results. I don't know who the fuck you are, you come off like someone singing gloom and doom because your character has a bad matchup, and you seem intent on exaggerating it on the merits of "TAS B Q.Q". There are no noobs to protect here, so get off your moral high horse. This isn't the SCV general forum filled with story boards and debates about shit, quite frankly, we don't care about.

Who am I? Haha why thank you for asking. I ran the BONE tournament for almost 2 years, ran 2 majors, including the biggest SC4 tournament (FSAK). At the height of SC4, I placed top 8 in tons of KOGA tournaments, won a few of the BONE tournaments (Take a look at the list of killers who showed up to those), I played against the best US Sophie and the best US Cass (Ramon and KDZ) in tournament 2-3 times a month for the better part of 2 years. I also have the distinct pleasure of having a talented Sig player in my region (Jian), who I played against once a week in a sisters v Sig matchup.

I've broken down the games coding to understand the balance decisions made by the dev team, even tinkered with modifying it from time to time. I have never played an ounce of online since release week of SC4, because I haven't had to because I have ample offline competition on the regular. I run the New England scene for Soul Calibur; and have kept it alive since the games inception, and taught an entire new generation of players.

That's who the fuck I am.

Now that I'm done dickwaving; let me bring you back to my essential point: and 8-2 matchup is literally a matchup so crippling that the person playing the 8 can be braindead and stupid and still win. Algol-Talim would be a good example. What I'm saying to you is; quite simply, Sophie vs Sig is not that bad. It's bad, yes... but not THAT bad.

-Idle
 
match ups that are game breakingly bad:

algol vs talim-8:2
maxi vs kilik-2:8

only ones I have played that I know for a fact suck total ass =P

best in the game are easily kilik ivy hilde amy voldo =P but everyone agrees on that
A tier is cervy setsu algol vader(stupid character) sophie mitsu yoshi
B-everyone who isnt yoda maxi mina talim
C-maxi mina talim
shortbus-yoda
 
Learn to read - I said who the fuck do you THINK you are. While I'm well aware that you are a big name in the states I really don't feel like arguing with some eejit who flames someone for giving his view WITH reasons.
Reasons I will now condense and simplify as you seem to have ignored them entirely:
Siegfrieds lack of safety is balanced by the distance required to be covered and a large portion of his keep-out game is susceptible to STC. This makes him incredibly vulnerable to TAS B TAS B:4. Due to this and the fact that in this situation it is effectively two mistakes, even small mistakes and you die, Siegfried is forced to come closer and try for an opening there - nothing doing.
She has an i11 step catcher, significantly more + on hit, a lot more in the way of safe, or even frametrapping pokes and Siegfrieds punishment doesn't even compare to sophie's.
In fact, if Sophie didn't exist and a character was designed specifically to kill Siegfried, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too different from Sophie.
As to what I said earlier - playing Ramon a lot doesn't make you an expert at fighting Sophie - it's makes you an expert at fighting Ramon's Sophie. Allow me to explain, if I trained against Malek for a solid year, then went up against say, scud or ring - I'd wager they'd destroy me, because I wouldn't be an expert against Ivy, I'd be an expert against Malek. You see? I know it's hard to listen to a non US player, but try this time, K?
 
IdleMind said:
Ramon, imo, is EASILY the best Sophie in the world. Show me another Sophie who consistently punishes whiffed throws with TAS B and I will eat my fucking hat.

At the point where you start throwing around 8-2 or 9-1, you better have some damn good reasoning for doing something like that; and honestly I'm just not seeing it (the reasoning).

-Idle
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Afiak Ramon is a humble person and the last thing he probably need you crowning him the best in the world. He is good, but playing him on daily basis doesnt make you good though. Lets just cut this crap before this gets out of hand. Its not about good and bad players.

Now if you followed their french chart from the very beginning you'd get all the reasoning. the chart is around for over 2 years on french board
and the excel file is around ~ a year or so. There is way too much to follow.

There isnt a single 9-1 also. The only characters who get some 8-2 mina, maxi and rock. All other 8-2 are against Hilde. Check your facts next time pls.

Im sure Frenchies would be happy to give you an explanation if you cared to ask, instead of accusing them blindly. No concrete examples are made so far.

PS: Its better to ignore someone than throw "who the fuck you are?" arguement....
 
IdleMind said:
Ok, I'm just gonna get this out of the way- Who the fuck are you? Because if I'm getting into a debate with a mouthy online scrub about the merits of a matchup he has never REALLY played before, I'm gonna be pissed. So save me some trouble and put some credentials on the table before we continue.

-Idle
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Uh, that's pretty harsh.

There hasn't been a consensus on the tier list, everyone has their own opinions but in my opinion it's not fair to completely disregard someone's opinion on matchups only because he doesn't have great "credentials". There are many great players in the world who have great understanding of the game but they don't compete in many tournaments for various reasons.

For me, the list looks like this:

Top: Hilde, Algol, Amy, Voldo, Kilik, Ivy, Setsuka, Sophitia (random order except Hilde)
High mid: Cassandra, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Cervy, Lizardman, Mitsurugi, Xian

The rest I'm not sure.
 
Belial said:
Afiak Ramon is a humble person and the last thing he probably need you crowning him the best in the world. He is good, but playing him on daily basis doesnt make you good though. Lets just cut this crap before this gets out of hand. Its not about good and bad players.
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Fair enough.

Now if you followed their french chart from the very beginning you'd get all the reasoning. the chart is around for over 2 years on french board and the excel file is around ~ a year or so. There is way too much to follow.

There isnt a single 9-1 also. The only characters who get some 8-2 mina, maxi and rock. All other 8-2 are against Hilde. Check your facts next time pls.
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You are correct. Reading back, I made presumptions which were in error about the FR matchups chart
I did not imply there were multiple 8-2/9/1 matchups; Synraii said Sophie vs Sig was 8-2, and I disagreed with that assertion and mistakenly believed he was sourcing the FR matchup chart.

Im sure Frenchies would be happy to give you an explanation if you cared to ask, instead of accusing them blindly. No concrete examples are made so far.
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I would like an explanation as to why, hopefully Saitoh wasn't just being sarcastic.

PS: Its better to ignore someone than throw "who the fuck you are?" arguement....
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Yeah... your right again.

-Idle
 
Synraii said:
*Note how if I started the argument, the mods would nuke the thread and shout at me >=[*
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You know, I was going to apologize but then you had to say something stupid in a thread DEDICATED TO ARGUING ABOUT DIFFERENCES OF OPINION ABOUT TIERS.

Otoh, I do apologize for pulling the "who the fuck are you" card. I was gonna PM you, but better to let that lie in public.

Once again, my apologies.

-Idle
 
Idle, I'd love to try and explain some of the MU we got there, but you have to be a LOT more specific. You sure understand I wont going to try and explain 93(now 94) pages of match-up discussions =)

Also, note that we don't think our chart is perfect (far from it) and we still try to figure out some match-up really. I mean, not that long ago, Zasalamel vs Mitsurugi was labelled as 6-4 for Zas :p
 
Saitoh said:
Idle, I'd love to try and explain some of the MU we got there, but you have to be a LOT more specific. You sure understand I wont going to try and explain 93(now 94) pages of match-up discussions =)

Also, note that we don't think our chart is perfect (far from it) and we still try to figure out some match-up really. I mean, not that long ago, Zasalamel vs Mitsurugi was labelled as 6-4 for Zas :p
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My questions mostly lie in why Sisters are ranked so high. I'll begin with the specifics:

Sophie vs Sig is 8-2. Honestly, at the point where you are handing out 8-2's it has to be really really bad, and I would like some reasons as to why.

Otoh, you have Sophie vs Taki at 5-5, even though Sophie can backstep PO mixups and TAS B punish easily, and severely limit Taki's ability to make offense. On top of that, Taki's mistakes are amplified because her damage is terrible, so in a battle of mistakes she will always lose.

You have Cass rated 6-4 against X, having little exp in that matchup myself, I would ask why this is?

That would be a good place to start discussion.

Let me clarify, this is a matter of degrees for me. I am not saying Sisters are bad. I am saying that I honestly do not see why Sophie is top, because the results of tournaments do not bear that out. Cass is ranked 6th in the FR matchup chart; but besides KDZ and Eggmaster, I've never seen anyone do well with her in an area of heavy competition; and in KDZ's case people caught on and his tournament performance slipped and slipped after EVO.

-Idle
 
WelcomeFurball said:
SU:
i personally dont think X should be in mid tier! if you know how to use stuff like one should with her, she is middle of upper mid at least. one word about X, safety.
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Well after getting my ass kicked by different Xianghua technology I'm inclined to agree especially since I've played a fair number of D's throughout my SCIV time.....

But anyway I just wanted to drop in here and say "do I see elitism" from another mod. Oh how the truth comes out but it will probably be brushed under the rug cause people are so naive and its not one of the usual culprits.

Yet another case of the moral high horse not called out on cause its not S-U etc.

Individual A "who the fuck are u?" to individual B "not enough credentials" haha
 
I've noticed I've posted in this topic several times but never posted my thoughts! And I love this type of stuff!

Barring Hilde's doom combo, I honestly think Sophie and Amy are the best characters in the game. These are the characters I feel have no bad matchups and excel everywhere.

Then, in no Particular order, Setsuka and Ivy. These are the characters with mostly favorable matchups that have slight weaknesses.

Then...in a REALLY rough order Algol, Kilik, Voldo, Mits, X, Yoshi, Cass, Lizardman (REALLY have no clue where he should go), Cervy, Vader, Apprentice, Asta. These are the characters that are decent overall, but have some bad matchups and weaknesses.

After that, no real order at all, Taki, Zas, Talim, Sieg, Nightmare, Tira, Raph, Maxi, Yun. These are characters with a higher ratio of bad matchups than good and big, but still somewhat workable weaknesses.

And, finally, Mina and Rock. These are characters with the majority of their matches being bad for them and glaring weaknesses.
 
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