Official Discussion for SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

Dreamkiller

Equal Sign Slash
**** Note from Jaxel: This thread is NOT an "official tier list", this is the "official thread for discussing tier lists" ****

I think this thread should be stickied along with the Cannes Qualifier Tourney Thread.

Like i said in the other thread, all the tier lists pretty much look the same. We all know whos good and whos not. And some people might disagree on a character or two but, the tier list can't be perfect right?

Official Tier List (Not in order)

Top Tier - Hilde, Amy, Voldo, Setsuka, Kilik
Upper Mid - Cervantes, Ivy, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Algol, Mitsurugi, Darth Vader, Xianghua
Mid - Zasalamel, Taki, Raphael, Nightmare, Siegfried, Lizardman, The Apprentice
Lower Mid - Yun-Seong, Maxi, Talim, Tira
Bottom - Rock, Seong Mi-na, Yoda

Xianghua, Sisters, and Darth Vader are pretty hard to place.
X is pretty well rounded and deserves to be Upper-Mid, but most will prolly disagree. Sisters arent going anywhere below mid. I personally think if they're gonna be put in a tier, they should be in the same one. Some might disagree with that as well. And Darth Vader imho should be Upper Mid cause he's a RO monster. But thats pretty much a tier list everyone can agree on I think.

Doing an SABCD can to mind, but I think this pretty much covers the jist of it, and doesnt bring in unnecessary flaming and arguing. This is also not to take away from the time and work that Something-Unique put in, into getting all of the top players opinions and compiling them to a final draft about the match-ups. Once Nori gets through with that his post will be put up on this first one along with the tier list.

The Top Tiers (In no specific order)

Hilde: Hilde is just amazing, and everyone can agree that she is top tier. Her C2's and C3's are all safe and dangerous. C2A GI's any type of mid, tracks both sides, and gives advantage on block, C2B tracks to one side, gives adv. on block, awesome range and can lead to a RO combo. C3A considered one of the best moves in the game has an auto-GI window that repels mids and highs, it also crushes highs, gives good advantage on block, tracks one side, and can RO from a good distance with C2BB. She has the best step in the game, and a good back step as well which helps for Whiff Punishment into Doom Combo. A B grab that RO's/switches side and does ok dmg along with the A grab and good grab range. Monstrous.

Amy: The main moves that come to mind when you think of Amy would be 2B+K and 3B/33B. A low that KD's and gives Oki as well as a mid that does the same. Both moves crush highs at some point in their animation and 3B/33B track to one side and can give up to 50 dmg with Oki. She has great interrupts and punishers in 6BB(an i11 high that gives adv. on hit, allows her to go into stance and having 236B uninterrupted on block), 2A(quick Special low that crushes highs and gives adv. on hit and CH), WS B (i13 high that cause shakeable stun on hit and allows her to mix-up 3BA/33B/2B+K/Grab), WS K (Safe, body attack that crushes high and KD's on hit), and 3A (i14 tracking move that gives adv on hit, safe on block.) She has also other annoying moves like 1A, 66A+B, and 4A. All of these moves are unsafe, but help her in her tracking, since Amy's main weakness is stepping to her right. Her other weaknesses are grab range and damage. But her tracking sticks out the most. Simple, yet effective Amy is good for even beginners to pick up and start owning noobs.

Voldo: The best SG game out of all characters, with damage and moves that even crush mids. Starting out with the SG game, moves like 3BB, 66A+B (Mid with range, KD's), CR A+B (High, great range, KD's only -2), and 2A+B (SCC optional) are all great moves that crush in less than 10. From Blind Stance (BS) he has BS 2BK, BS 1A (low, KD, pushback, recovers crouch, and only -16), and BS 3B are all stupid great moves that break in less than 10 as well. 1K is safe, crushes mids, and puts him in BS. BS A+B is just reverse Asura, high but safe. BS 3B on CH leads to 90+ (BS 3B, 3B, 3B. JF techable tho.) For punishing he has 6:6B which leads to RO, i16 and is only -12. Far range grabs from CR are great, and CR B is a low that RO's, the K KD's and leaves him grounded (along with plenty of other moves he has), which doesn't give much punishment. Voldo is pretty weak to step tho. Don't be fooled tho, he does have damaging step killers in BS 22A and BS 3A work pretty well for that too. And he can still grab out of stance. Damage, SG damage, and an awesome RO game (damn those Mantis Crawl RO combos) pretty much separates Voldo from the rest of the cast.

Setsuka: Setsuka is deadly. She can fight you at any range and deal damage like a bitch. 66A tracks at far range and bring her in with adv. its also safe on block, but high. 33B is a safe mid-range launcher that can deal about 50+. Moves like A+K,A and 66B+K also deserve mention. At close range, she can be insane. She has great punishers since her A is i11, 44B+K is i14 high and KD's with good damage, JF Umbrella is i12, 1B:B at i17, and B+K for anything i23 and up. If she's ever in position for Oki, which will prolly be often, with all the early KD's she has she can make u guess with 1AAA and B+K. B+K ending in umbrella RO's behind her and is only -14, regular ender still nets her 90 dmg. Umbrella ender with a wall gets her a nice chunk of 100+. 1AAA is unsafe, but its a i22 low so its not so easy to see. It RO's to her right and in front of her. Umbrella set-ups are often seen since it's so fast, hits mid, RO's and does good damage. 4A is a safe retreating high, that crushes highs and tracks. On CH it stuns to give her B+K for 90 damage. Superb. Her grabs are amazing as well as having good grab range. They all leave her in good positions. Sides and back included. A grab can tech trap if she needs to, and can RO behind her. B grab does good damage and leaves them right in front you, and command grab does damage and can RO in front of her. If she had to have a weakness it would probably be her lack of lows seeing as how the other ones are seeable and unsafe. But with 1A and grabs, that should be enough to make an opponent duck. This bitch is serious.

Algol

Kilik

Upper Mid

Cervantes

Ivy

Astaroth

Yoshimitsu

Mitsurugi

Mid Tier

Zasalamel

Taki

Raphael

Nightmare

Siegfried

Lizardman

Lower Mid

The Apprentice

Yun-seong

Maxi

Talim

Tira

Bottom

Rock

Seong-Mina

Yoda
 

Something-Unique

[10] Knight
i think amy's weakness is actually her left side

It is as stepping everything on that side is more potent and u can escape everything but 33B. If the Amy is heavy on 33B u might as well start stepping to her right thought since both work even though in general things get stepped alot easier to her left side.
 

JOP

[08] Mercenary
put cervantes in top tier, move apprentice up to mid, and put vader in upper mid. the rest seems pretty agreeable.
 

Paragon049

[10] Knight
I am unsure about Setsuka and Algol's placement in top tier. I personally think Algol should drop down to high tier, and Cass should be in top. Really, Cass' only weakness is her lack of decent lows.
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
Lower Mid - Apprentice, Yun-Seong, Maxi, Talim, Tira

Apprentice is definitely not lower mid. I'd personally put him at upper mid. And that's not because of his throw break. But his excellent ability to turtle, good speed, and really high damage combos/tech traps, and 'Hilde doom combo like' ring out ability (iFC 8K:A repeated). But I'd be fine seeing him at mid tier on an 'official' list, since most people haven't seen what he's truly capable of at high level play.

As for Vader, in my eyes he's top tier. He's got everything a top tier needs, excellent safety, damage, RO ability and great frames make up for speed, and hardly any bad matchups.

And Algol doesn't deserve a top tier spot. He's more of an upper mid.
 

KowtowRobinson

[10] Knight
I agree that Algol can get bumped down to upper mid, simply because of bad head to head matchups against broke tier. But Cervy in top tier? On what grounds? That just says to me that people need to up their punishment game really badly. I'm by no means a great player, but I get away with so much shit going unpunished it's ridiculous at this point.
 

Something-Unique

[10] Knight
For what its worth I agree with this approach and the list is damn near accurate basing things of the general consensus for tier placing without focusing on 100% accuracy such as this character is in front of this character.

Focusing on what tier each belong in is more respectable imo like the main point of this topic. So to address the tier list........

Top Tier - Hilde, Amy, Voldo, Setsuka, Algol, Kilik
Upper Mid - Cervantes, Ivy, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Mitsurugi,
Mid - Zasalamel, Taki, Raphael, Nightmare, Siegfried, Lizardman,
Lower Mid - Apprentice, Yun-Seong, Maxi, Talim, Tira
Bottom - Rock, Seong-Mina, Yoda

I agree with some of the few who did come in here so far and make some comments. Setsuka and Algol should be placed in one tier lower (Upper Mid if we are talking in terms of no particular order and more about general placement). There is no justification for either of them being higher than let's say Cervantes (especially) and the rest that are in Upper Mid.

Hilde, Amy, Voldo, Kilik are without a doubt in a tier higher than the rest of the characters in this game.

In general I think the Upper Mid should be more crowded as Both Sisters and Xianghua belong there but u could argue that Xianghua could be placed in mid tier. Darth Vader belongs in Upper Mid as well and Apprentice belongs in Mid. Essentially creating this......

(No order)

Top - Hilde, Amy, Voldo, Kilik
Upper Mid - Cervantes, Ivy, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Mitsurugi, Setsuka, Algol, Cassandra, Sophitia, Darth Vader
Mid - Zasalamel, Taki, Nightmare, Siegfried, Lizardman, Xianghua, The Apprentice
Lower Mid - Yun-Seong, Maxi, Talim, Tira, Raphael
Bottom - Rock, Seong-Mina, Yoda

Upper Mid looks crowded but thats essentially where they should be.
 

Dreamkiller

Equal Sign Slash
Well i can definitely agree that Appr. is mid. But he really isnt all that imo. U say no one has seen him at high level play, and no will. For the simple fact that Star wars characters are banned in some countries and no one in the states actually plays him. You kinda played him, but all u did was BB, 9B, and grab. Mid should work for Apprentice.
Same goes for Vader, he can be upper mid.
The only thing bad I see on Cervy is his safety. In my eyes he's trailing right behind the top tier characters. He's amazing. He's got a good low, a great command grab, great punishers, damage for days. But safety and bad step should factor into tier listing no? I'm not against putting him up there tho. Since everybody knows he's a monster.
The only reason I put Algol up there was because of his match-ups against most of the cast. Were they not all good?

Add-On
Putting sisters in mid tier also works, since Upper mid is so crowded. To be honest I dont see wats so hot about Cass anyway. I see her tools, and they're awesome. But she suffers from step hard. Sophies another one, who can dish out damage but she has to be patient for it. Her frames arent wat they used to be either. Setsuka, eh. Other countries seem to think she's amazing, you're the only so far who thinks she's not. The reasons are right there too and no one else seems to disagree. Sister players should come in and put in their two cents to solve that.
 

Eyce_Theon

[09] Warrior
Algol's been bitched out of proportion. He doesn't have too many advantageous matchups against the other top characters.

The list SU just posted is probably the closest to truth, bar a few placements I dissagree with (like most people). It should be like,

Top - very strong offense and defense
Upper Mid - has something strong going for their offense, or fewer holes in their defense
Mid - good balance of strengths and weaknesses
Lower Mid - mostly relies on tricks, easier to defeat if you know how to approach them
Bottom - has major issues holding them back
 

Something-Unique

[10] Knight
In regards to Setsuka! She is amazing and I have now picked her up 100% which helps me understand her a little more.

My main reason for her being in Upper Mid as opposed to top is because she has to work 2-3 times as hard as those who are in top tier. Not to mention that she has to do an extensive amount of CH hunting for damage that is high but not as applicable or as high as those in the top tier. In a number of cases her throw game is gimped as well. Tools like 1B:B which is one of her only practical non CH high damaging tools can also be GI'ed in between. 1A:A:A is awesome but also stupid unsafe and the range on it is gimped and her pressure in terms of closing space for using it isn't as great as someone like Amy. She is a notch lower than those in the top.

I do however agree that both the Sisters and Xianghua are hard to place and I just threw them in Upper Mid (Sisters) because they are really close to each other. Xianghua is a tricky story.
 

malek

[10] Knight
Yo S-U, can you post all the match up that the players gave you pls ?
This way, we will have a better view I think.
 

Something-Unique

[10] Knight
The problem with that method I used is that its unfinished! The reason is because I never sent out requests to everyone for there respective characters due to inbox overflooding. The other problem is that some of the people I sent them to either replied and said they couldn't help or didn't want to do it and others got the message (clearly) but purposely never responded which is why it took so long and I eventually stopped caring as well.

The idea was to get three top notable people of their characters with their own opinions first and foremost and average out the numbers between the three.

Example:

Ivy Matchup Chart:

Ivy vs. Amy: (Opinions)

Malek 5:5
Linkrkc 4:6
Ring 4:6

This comes out a 4:6 for the Ivy matchup chart since its more in that favor and I don't use 4.5's etc.

Then after receiving every characters individual matchup chart averages they would in the end be further averaged out based on a matchup chart vs. matchup chart opinion involving the six opinions for each respective character.

Example:

Kilik Chart: (vs. Ivy)

Something-Unique 5:5
Wing-Zero 5:5
ShadowFox 5:5

Ivy Chart: (vs. Kilik)

Malek 5:5
Linkrkc 5:5
Ring 5:5

Averages out at a 5:5 in order to further humble the scores and be more accurate. But because I lack a third opinion for a number of them I just didn't bother until I could find one but everytime I sent one out the person never responded or had no input so I just left it alone. Some people don't care and some are just jerk offs who will not help so that was the end of it for me.

So in reality I have some matchup charts with three respectable opinions and then others with two or just one.

Malek this is the Ivy Matchup Chart averaged out from ur opinion Link's and Ring's. (Again to be absolutely accurate I would need all matchup charts so I could cross average them like I mentioned above for the highest accuracy).

Ivy vs. Amy 4:6
Ivy vs. Astaroth 6:4
Ivy vs. Cassandra 5:5
Ivy vs. Cervantes 5:5
Ivy vs. Darth Vader 5:5
Ivy vs. Hilde 3:7
Ivy vs. Kilik 5:5
Ivy vs. LizardMan 5:5
Ivy vs. Maxi 6:4
Ivy vs. Mitsurugi 5:5
Ivy vs. Nightmare 6:4
Ivy vs. Raphael 6:4
Ivy vs. Rock 7:3
Ivy vs. Seong Mi-Na 7:3
Ivy vs. Setsuka 5:5
Ivy vs. Siegfried 6:4
Ivy vs. Sophitia 4:6
Ivy vs. The Apprentice 6:4
Ivy vs. Voldo 4:6
Ivy vs. Xianghua 5:5
Ivy vs. Yoda 7:3
Ivy vs. Yoshimitsu 5:5
Ivy vs. Yun-Seong 6:4
Ivy vs: Zasalamel 5:5 or 6:4

The Final Revised Kilik matchup chart based on Kilik opinions has been in the Kilik forums for a while just sitting there lol.
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
Top - Hilde, Amy, Voldo, Kilik
Upper Mid - Cervantes, Ivy, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Mitsurugi, Setsuka, Algol, Cassandra, Sophitia, Darth Vader
Mid - Zasalamel, Taki, Raphael, Nightmare, Siegfried, Lizardman, Xianghua, The Apprentice
Lower Mid - Yun-Seong, Maxi, Talim, Tira
Bottom - Rock, Seong-Mina, Yoda

That list looks pretty agreeable. Although from experience Raph always seemed like more of a lower-mid character to me.

DK, I still play him and I do much more than just BB, 9B and throw. ;)

I see that people still underestimate the power of the Dark Side.
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
I like how everyone in the topic is saying Algol isn't top tier but he's banned almost everywhere anyway :P shit is sad
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
I like how everyone in the topic is saying Algol isn't top tier but he's banned almost everywhere anyway :P shit is sad

What's even sadder is that Yoda was also banned at many tournaments including Nats.

On another note, I'm curious in seeing what people's current opinions on the BD tiers are, and how different it might be from SC4's.
 

Something-Unique

[10] Knight
Tiamat:

I imagine that u believe he is top and to be honest he could pass for it but I think he could also pass for the top or damn near top of Upper Mid.

Oofmatic:

Hilde #1 (again)
Setsuka #2 (have u seen the changes I posted for her in the SC:BD thread for Setsuka) Jesus christ she is beast.
Dampierre #3 (11B is enough in itself even though its unsafe and that's not even considering the things u were telling me)
Kilik #4 (Still uber strong even with the Asura nerf)

Edit: SC:BD: (God Tier - Hilde) (Top Tier - Setsuka, Dampierre, Kilik). Not sure about Amy because she is the same and the new GI window plus super buffed step game hits her hard. Not to sure about Voldo either now that I think about it with all his nerfs but imagine he is still strong. Yoshimitsu might have moved up a noticeable margin and he might be in top now.

Something like that!

Piggy:

That's cause he's from NY and he is automatically gangsta lol.
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
SU: I really don't care anymore about where you guys put him in your lists I'm just trolling honestly ^_^

edit: Well to be constructive (serious mode here), you should probably take Algol out of top tier because the popular thing to do nowadays is to rank characters by the level of play they have been shown to be capable of by high level players as opposed to basing it mostly off of how good the character actually is. Not that this is necessarily wrong or right, that's just what people seem to prefer here.