1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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So far, there are very VERY few chars that stand out where they are better than most of the cast. I think Amy is one of the few exceptions. She obviously has all the tools she needs to win at high level. Yoshimitsu also does, that much is clear. Everybody else is debatable. Even then, Amy nor Yoshi are broken, or even close. When SC3 came out, within a month, it was clear who sucked and who was good. This is the first game where I honestly don't know for sure who's the best and who's the worst (maybe Rock ISN'T the worst char).
 
I once went up against the 3rd ranked guy on psn who played a solid rock. He lost, but it was the first time I'd ever really seen him played, and he did fairly decent.
 
I'll throw in my lot with Nori. Inevitably, there are going to be characters who prove to win more in top-level tournaments, but overall, SC4 feels like a remarkably well-balanced game. I can't think of a single character whom I'd point at and say "That character just sucks." The closest (IMO) is Rock, simply because I feel his offensive arsenal is too limited (or maybe he just does too little damage to be that slow). A very little, little bit of tweaking would make him pretty competitive. Maybe give him a guard break with 4+[A+B] or something similar, and add a little damage to some moves. He's just missing a little something.

But yes, overall, feels like a very balanced game. As an example, I used to think Nightmare was a little underpowered. I actually do okay with him playing with the few friends I game with, and I've seen some pretty brutal stuff pulled off with him. Timing is key, but with a CAS or customized Nightmare you can easily do over 100 point combos consistently, and if you have the right skills you're getting tons of HP back each time you do. Nasty stuff. Can't be avoided with AC either (very not-trivial detail, that).
 
DreamingSky said:
I'll throw in my lot with Nori. Inevitably, there are going to be characters who prove to win more in top-level tournaments, but overall, SC4 feels like a remarkably well-balanced game. I can't think of a single character whom I'd point at and say "That character just sucks." The closest (IMO) is Rock, simply because I feel his offensive arsenal is too limited (or maybe he just does too little damage to be that slow). A very little, little bit of tweaking would make him pretty competitive. Maybe give him a guard break with 4+[A+B] or something similar, and add a little damage to some moves. He's just missing a little something.

But yes, overall, feels like a very balanced game. As an example, I used to think Nightmare was a little underpowered. I actually do okay with him playing with the few friends I game with, and I've seen some pretty brutal stuff pulled off with him. Timing is key, but with a CAS or customized Nightmare you can easily do over 100 point combos consistently, and if you have the right skills you're getting tons of HP back each time you do. Nasty stuff. Can't be avoided with AC either (very not-trivial detail, that).
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Hate to say it, but competitive play, and thus tiers, never reflect special items. I've never seen a tournament use "Special Vs." instead of standard, especially since you can't take your own custom characters with you to a tournament anymore.
 
DreamingSky said:
Timing is key, but with a CAS or customized Nightmare you can easily do over 100 point combos consistently, and if you have the right skills you're getting tons of HP back each time you do. Nasty stuff. Can't be avoided with AC either (very not-trivial detail, that).
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lol cas lol
 
so far my tier list...

A:Sophitia,Cassandra,Amy,Mitsurugi,Ivy,Cervantes
B:Lizardman,Astaroth,Kilik,Yoshimitsu,Setsuka,Voldo
C:Siegfried,Nightmare,Xianghua,Taki,Tira,Raphael,Darth Vader,Hilde
D:Zasalamel,Talim,Yun Seong,Seong Mina,Apprentice,Maxi,Rock

i think the game its pretty balanced!so i separate in 4 categories.
i dont know yet about Raphael and Voldo but for what i have already seen i rank them B and C.
i place Tira C only because she has the random thing problem!
also Zasalamel in D rank because he has a lot of moves depending on JFs.
also i like to add that even Rock and Talim which i think is a little low than the others on rank D, they can compete even with Sophie in an advance game!i dont think that tiers are so much trouble here like SCIII,IMO.
 
I say Rock just barely beats out the Apprentice for low tier. Its so nice how his name is so fitting.

Out of the whole cast Apprentice seems to fit the "Dan" role very well.
 
Early Impression of Tiers IMO:

Top Tier-Cassandra, Yoshimitsu, Mitsurugi, Ivy

Upper Mid-Lizardman, Algol, Voldo, Cervantes, Setsuka, Amy, Siegfried

Mid-Raphael, Kilik, Hilde, Sophitia, Astaroth, Zasalamel, Tira, Xianghua, Yunsung, Nightmare, Taki

Lower Mid-Talim, Mina, Maxi

Low Tier-Starkiller, Rock

IMO, but will change with time most probably.
 
Tier 1 is mainly just broken hitbox characters right now. Cassandra, Sophitia, Lizardman, Kilik, Seung Mina, Talim and Nightmare. I'd say Tier 2 are combo heavy characters like Cervantes, Astaroth, Amy, Hilde, Taki and Mitsurugi. The distinction, I think, is between strong and just plain broken. Tier 1 is reserved for only the broken, usually, and the only reason Siegfried used to make the cut was his tracking-beam throw and his uber-tracking forward run+vertical that does a roll and then used to hit an opponent no matter what sidestepping was done. Just try to see what moves hit a crouching Cassandra or another broken hitbox character when the character is right next to your character, sidestepped once in either direction or directly in front of you. Because Siegfried has basically NONE, there's no way he can make Tier 1 or 2 or...well...he's not very high at all. Are there any other broken hitbox characters aside from the ones I listed?
 
Soph, Cass, Amy, Cervy, X are all the ones that I think are better than they probably need to be.

Mit, Yoshi, Sieg, Ivy (infinite obv goes on top), Raph and Voldo make up the bottom of the top tier

The bottom tier is something like Rock, Tira, Apprentice, which leaves everyone else somewhere in the middle (Probably starting with Setsuka and ending with Algol/Zas)

It really seems like the characters with the most unfair and exploitable JF(s) are the best and most played on a real level...and I realize that makes sense as its competition and you want to use the best character, but I don't know how enjoyable its going to be to play a game where the optimal way to do things is getting off 15 iGDR in one round. It was one thing playing against Sophie in SC1-2-3 and expecting to get my kidney's stabbed because its definitely the correct play any time you can punish me. But by adding all these JFs to moves that are already ridiculously good, they are sorta just inviting everyone to spam them. Soul Calibur has (to me anyway) always been a game about positioning, guessing what your opponent will do, get in their head, knowing how to defend against a multitude of options, a complex fighting system that resembled a game of chess on wheels. And now its who can hit 66:B faster. Sweet.
 
Personally I would not place Ivy at top tier first since its still SC4 is still relatively new. But Ivy is definitely stronger than who she was back in SC 3.

But Tira is definitely NOT low tier this time round.

And personally I feel that Tiers shouldn't be made based off broken hit boxes and shit tracking abilities. But rather on an overall. Like what moves they have, stepping, tracking. Should take most aspects of the character into consideration.

But so far there are no standard system of tier ranking except through players impression.

But Tier doesn't really apply when you know what you are doing even playing a match up between Sophie and Siegfried.
 
If someone is doing 15 iGDRs in a round then he's gonna get back thrown or interrupted by mids the majority of the time.

Gamefaqs - What's this Cass infinite you mentioned? I hope you don't mean BT B+K over and over again, because that's only an infinite on department store mannequins.
 
Rigel: from what I've read the "infinites" discovered by people on gamefaqs all seem to be experienced online. Also Mitsu and Yoshi apparently have infinites as well.
 
Only thing close to an infinite I can think of for Yoshi is 3AB 4AAAAA(just) 3B 4AAAAA.

I don't even think it's possible, actually.
 
warble said:
Tier 1 is mainly just broken hitbox characters right now. Cassandra, Sophitia, Lizardman, Kilik, Seung Mina, Talim and Nightmare. I'd say Tier 2 are combo heavy characters like Cervantes, Astaroth, Amy, Hilde, Taki and Mitsurugi. The distinction, I think, is between strong and just plain broken. Tier 1 is reserved for only the broken, usually, and the only reason Siegfried used to make the cut was his tracking-beam throw and his uber-tracking forward run+vertical that does a roll and then used to hit an opponent no matter what sidestepping was done. Just try to see what moves hit a crouching Cassandra or another broken hitbox character when the character is right next to your character, sidestepped once in either direction or directly in front of you. Because Siegfried has basically NONE, there's no way he can make Tier 1 or 2 or...well...he's not very high at all. Are there any other broken hitbox characters aside from the ones I listed?
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Talim, Nightmare, Kilik and Seung Mina aren't top in my opinion. Not sure about Lizardman. I wouldn't put Hilde at the same level than Cervantes (Cervy > Hilde).
 
Ivy's infinite is irrelevant.

No one will ever be using her infinite in any game that matters so why are people mentioning it in tier lists?
 
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