1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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ok I have to laugh when I read the whole thread... everyone cries about the sisters but nobody is winning with them... cass > sophie and most of you are gonna say Im stupid for saying that but I think most of you have stupid reasons for why you think one person is higher then another... my tiers look like this

S tier - Yoda/Vader (So amazing they were akuma like and BANNED!)
good - yoshi, sophie, cass, amy, asta, cervy, sig, voldo, raph, lizardman, taki, mitsu, kilik, setsuka and Yun
Bad - rock, nightmare, talim, zas and the rest of the trash

And for the love of god dont take results seriously for a while... good people using bad tactics for their character lead to bad results that will correct themselves... person X has won tournaments so they are better then person Y... pull your head from your rectum and just play the fucking game
 
Nuez said:
I hated the "no throws" crowd at the arcade 15 years ago. If you ask me just because you can't figure out how to defend against certain paths of attack or strategies, that doesn't make the game "cheesy" or the players exploitative, it just means you need to go back to the drawing board.
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Fair point. I'd say that the SF games did contain some innate inequities, evidenced by the fact that Capcom addressed them after much fan complaint.

What really irritated me about the tournament crowd was that during non-tournament play, there was this big unwritten rule against tap-slamming (cheapslamming), and people would, like, literally fight you physically if you broke this rule. Then it comes tournament time and the same people who are throwing such hissy-fits about cheapslamming are the ones who do it most. Sure, I see your point about "cry more n00b, just learn to prevent it," but what bugged me was the blatant hypocrisy. If you're going to belittle people who cheapslam in a non-tournament setting but then turn around and do it as much as you can yourself as soon as money or bragging rights are on the line... you shouldn't open your mouth in the first place IMO. And all tournament winners cheapslam, period, including the famed Daigo match mentioned above.

Speak of that:
pixel09 said:
So, I guess the crowd watching Daigo vs Justin Wong at EVO would have been going so much wilder had they been just been playing casually?

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Not everyone can compete at Olympic level athleticism. Almost everyone enjoys watching it. :-) Should we totally ignore the people who just like to play? I'm glad Namco doesn't, or there would be a lot less of SC4 to enjoy.
 
Oboro said:
Speaking of Voldo, he's got one of the best 50/50 games hands down this time around IMO.
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Care to elaborate on this? Do you mean in BS only? Because when he's not in BS I can't think of much he can do that would constitute a threatening 50/50 without first knocking the opponent down.
 
DreamingSky said:
What really irritated me about the tournament crowd was that during non-tournament play, there was this big unwritten rule against tap-slamming (cheapslamming), and people would, like, literally fight you physically if you broke this rule. Then it comes tournament time and the same people who are throwing such hissy-fits about cheapslamming are the ones who do it most. Sure, I see your point about "cry more n00b, just learn to prevent it," but what bugged me was the blatant hypocrisy. If you're going to belittle people who cheapslam in a non-tournament setting but then turn around and do it as much as you can yourself as soon as money or bragging rights are on the line... you shouldn't open your mouth in the first place IMO. And all tournament winners cheapslam, period, including the famed Daigo match mentioned above.
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What the hell is "cheapslamming" and when did Daigo do it? And also, whenever I play a game, tournament or not, if it's in the game (throws, ring-outs, unblockables, supers, etc.) it's allowed. I don't double-talk and haven't known anybody else on the scene to either. Things that get banned tend to be things that were designed poorly to begin with like glitches, infinites, drastically unbalanced characters, etc. Besides that it's, literally, all good.

If anyone is playing by one set of rules for casuals and by another for tourney play I can't imagine they're a) that good anyway, or b) male.
 
Ok, this is my final revision for awhile. Please get this thread back on track and try to stay focused on what tiers are all about. The discussions in this thread have turned to trash.

My Tiers: BASED ON EARLY OBSERVED COMPETATIVE PLAY AND APPLICATION. No order to the groups, each tier is considered to be close to even with each other, in most situations with weaknesses being outweighed by different strengths.

A: (top) exceptional qualities, saftey, oki, soul gauge abuse and damage

Amy
Sophitia
Yoshimitsu
Cassandra

B: (upper)- Great damage, pressure, mix up game and safety or soul gauge abuse

Lizardman
Mitsurugi
Taki
Siegfried
Cervantes


C: (upper mid) solid on damage, pressure, safety, some gimmicks to early abuse

Xianghua
Voldo
Algol
Kilik
Setsuka
Ivy
Raphael

D: (mid) no overbearing features, but solid damage and set ups, reasonable safety/range, often gimmick dependant, lacking at least one major requisite of those above them.

Astaroth
Talim
Tira
Zasalamel
Nightmare
Yun
Hilde

E: (lower mid) gimmick depenant, poor damage and set ups, no outstanding positives to outweigh negatives

Maxi
The Apprentice
Darth Vader
Seong Mina


F: (bottom tier) huge negatives, inconsistant damage, subpar when compared to peers

Rock
Yoda

==============================================

Discuss. Remember try and appraise tiers based on competative qualities (safety, range, speed, RO ability, damage, oki, pressure, defense), without character bias, local competative limitations or ONLINE play. These are mean't to distinguish characters on an even competative skill level vs each other and over all qualities compared to the rest of the cast. NOT YOUR ability to use them, or beat someone with them.

Tiers don't help bad players using good characters, beat good players using bad characters.


cha cha
 
Tap-slamming is tapping an opponent's guard and moving in to slam while the opponent is coming out of blockstun. I know it's weird to talk about things like frame advantages in 2D, sprite-based fighting games, but that is the situation you're setting up. Daigo was clearly trying to use the technique and even pulled it off once while his opponent was in the corner. I would append that SF3 does away with the concept somewhat (parries), but it is still a tactic. However, it's extremely minor in SF3, where it was a fairly significant issue in SF2, especially the first 2 editions (basic and CE). Ken, who was always speculated to have a longer throw reach than Ryu (can anyone ever verify if this was proven?) was a character I saw used to cheapslam frequently. Low short kick into monkey roll probably being the most common. Ryu and Ken could also both set up very nasty, hard to avoid slam traps by using shoulder kicks (where it looks like you sit on the enemy with your butt, but it damages or hits a block) into a low SK and then slam.

I think you're from NYC, Nuez? Maybe you have a healthier competitive culture there. The references I'm making are to places like the YBR (which I visited for a summer back in the early 90s), where the culture is very win at all costs. And yes, people definitely played by one set of "rules" in non-tournament, and totally another in tournaments.

I think the discussion about casual (and SP modes) play versus hardcore tourney grinding is a valid one, but if it continues much farther I think I need to open up a separate topic for it. I feel like I'm polluting a topic being put to other use. :-P Let's see if there is much more response. I really would like to encourage discussion about SP versus and the many customizations possible, though. I have much more fun with that than just the basic, vanilla game.
 
That stuff is called tick throwing, not tap-slamming or cheapslamming. It's always been known as tick throws since the heydays of the arcade scene.

Tick throws are very prevalent in 2D fighters, even in 3S. Hell, it's not extremely minor in 3S since the game has a very strong throw component to go with a character's offense.

Also, all scenes are win at all cost. That's why it's called competition. If you saw a scene that had "rules" then it was a scrubby scene that threw out scrubby tournaments and never went far in nationals. You think jwong gives a crap about throwing you in the corner in MvC2 with mags? Hell no he doesn't. It's the way it's always been and it's the way it should always be.

Alright I'm done derailing.
 
Wil said:
Care to elaborate on this? Do you mean in BS only? Because when he's not in BS I can't think of much he can do that would constitute a threatening 50/50 without first knocking the opponent down.
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Yes from his back. His combination of power, guessing games and evasive throws from his back are awesome.
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
E: (lower mid) gimmick depenant, poor damage and set ups, no outstanding positives to outweigh negatives

Maxi
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Took me a bit to see it but I completely agree with this now. Im not one to be a habitual nay sayer about Maxi, but he has so many flaws in his game its incredibly sad. Shitty low game in general. Generally unsafe on any of his fast, decent pokes. The aGIs from stance were a great idea, except they really are only effective in 2 out of his 5 stances and they really arent true auto GIs. All his WL options can be successfully rGIed. Of course there is more, but Im at work. lol I wouldnt be surprised if he dropped lower.
 
KamikazeGopher said:
Took me a bit to see it but I completely agree with this now. Im not one to be a habitual nay sayer about Maxi, but he has so many flaws in his game its incredibly sad. Shitty low game in general. Generally unsafe on any of his fast, decent pokes. The aGIs from stance were a great idea, except they really are only effective in 2 out of his 5 stances and they really arent true auto GIs. All his WL options can be successfully rGIed. Of course there is more, but Im at work. lol I wouldnt be surprised if he dropped lower.
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Yeah, I once would have loved to try to defend The Max but the more I play him and the more I just see his attributes stacked against others, the more I can see how underwhelming he really is.

He's total top tier if you're playing n00bs though! It looks like he never stops attacking and n00bs don't know to interrupt.

*sigh*
 
Honestly I think its safe to say maxi's off the shit tier. Since the step in SC4 is such trash maxi's 2(or 8)A+K step into "not a chance" pose has proven a good tactic for me so far. Its not really tournament proven yet but i've thrown off a few good players with it. It seems at the moment that Maxi has become more of a run around and try to ring ya out type character than the juggler that he was in sc1. I'd say he's barley C tier.
 
I still disagree on Mina being that low. She has positives.

- great CF game, and more versatile then Yun's
- great range and keep out

I can't see her moving above mid at all though.
 
Bibilus: As I stated before, I agree Cassie is better. I think her 3B is better and faster than Sophie's 44B at the tip. And I whore FC 1B (I'm totally spoiled by this move). Plus, 2B+K is sick and Sophie doesn't have anything like that.

Schabit: Do you REALLY get people to block/eat 4B+K enough? I usually step the move? I guess to each his own. The differences between Sophie and Cass are so small, it's safe to say they are both top. I happen to like Cass better, but either sister winning a tourney doesn't surprise me at all.

Also, people shouldn't take the tiers TOO seriously. If a major tourney comes around and you win w/Nightmare, cool, good job. You get don't an extra award, plaque, money, gift certificate, scholarship, or contract offer from the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL/WNBA.

Overall, so far, this game is very balanced. If somebody puts your favorite char in tier shit hole, it's because they probably haven't played somebody who is good w/that char. Again, the best way is to go to practice mode, look at the ENTIRE command list, and determine what's good or bad (or if you want a shorter way, go to the soul arenas).

So far, everybody has something good to fight somebody else;) People are only now noticing Yoshimitsu is sick in this game. Anybody w/a pulse can use Amy/Cass/Yoshi/Sophie at this point. At high level, a great player will win, but he above chars have mixups you can teach an 8 year old, but they can ALL be beaten and NONE are broken, so bottom line....play whoever you want;)
 
Barring a patch, Maxi will probably end up a low tier character.

For starters, he is very unsafe. Just about every one of his most important moves is either highly punishable or leads to a very risky guessing game, and his auto-GIs are mostly gimmickry. His new stance had some potential, but more experienced players will learn to punish it on reaction (since even slightly delayed verticals can both avoid the GI and stuff the follow-up attack) or just block and eat the low, which does minuscule damage and leaves Maxi at a disadvantage on hit anyway. Oh, and even if the auto-GI is successful, it's possible to re-GI the following attack if you react quickly enough.

His PSL3 auto-GI is practically worthless. Even if you transition with a move that ends in RO or LO, about half the time the stance won't repel anything until the first loop is almost finished. During that window you can attack Maxi with near-impunity, even when his 'chuks are flashing purple. He might have quite a few NCs, but they're only useful if they actually hit, and many of them can quite easily be interrupted between hits.

In a nutshell, players that know how to react to Maxi's strings will give him an extremely tough fight. Much (if not most) of the time, mounting any sort of meaningful offense requires taking HUGE risks, and against more knowledgeable opponents those risks are not very likely to pay off.
 
Nori said:
Schabit: Do you REALLY get people to block/eat 4B+K enough? I usually step the move? I guess to each his own. The differences between Sophie and Cass are so small, it's safe to say they are both top. I happen to like Cass better, but either sister winning a tourney doesn't surprise me at all.
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It's actually very easy to get people to bock it or eat it. Just train them not to step by spamming a bunch of As. Also, using it on wakeup is a great strategy.

And you're right. The differences between the two are very small. I like Cass better as well, but think Sophie's tools are slightly better.
 
this thread is too much random

this is the worst approach ever to a complete tier list

what i see is only a bunch of random post with a completely different lists from the previous one..i think most of players (or supposed so) don't have a clue about collecting infos to draw a matchup chart THEN a tier list..

first of all tiers are not based upon your own personal win/loss
there are a lot of good players able to massacre in tournaments with lows but this won't mean the character is high rated

what should happen: (random numbers and statement below eh!)

sophie vs asta matchup is 7 - 3 -->discussion and maybe changes on those numbers
sophie vs cervy matchup is 6 - 4 -->discussion and maybe changes on those numbers
cervy vs asta matchup is 7 - 3 -->discussion and maybe changes on those numbers
zasalamel vs sophie matchup is 2 - 8 -->discussion and maybe changes on those numbers
zasalamel vs cervy matchup is 6 - 4 -->discussion and maybe changes on those numbers
zasalamel vs asta matchup is 6 - 4 -->discussion and maybe changes on those numbers

once done:

sophie=7+6+8=21
cervy=4+7+4=14
asta=3+3+4=10
zasa=2+6+6=14

OR

------sophie--cervy--asta--zasa
sophie--X-------6------7-----8---=21
cervy---4-------X------7-----4---=14
asta----3-------3------X-----4---=10
zasa----2-------6------6-----X---=14

the tier list have ranks upon character difference supposely by 10 in difference. so:

S tier: sophie
B tier: zasa, cervy (the have both 14pts but the direct matchup is in zasa's favour)
C tier: asta

after a good amount of time, tournament results and such we'll have a complete analysis of each character and a nice tier list
 
Shura, you know what "early" means? Or you decided to throw the word "retarded" without even reading the thread title?
 
Cirex said:
Shura, you know what \"early\" means? Or you decided to throw the word \"retarded\" without even reading the thread title?
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there's a bit of difference between

'early' with cognition
and
'early' with randomness


btw the word retarded is used for fun and was not intended to disturb someone (we're talking about videogames)..i'll edit
 
The use there was a bit harsh and exaggerated.

The game has been out for one month, people like to talk about tiers and stuff. I usually don't mind, but I follow these topics and post my opinion, although no matter what the tiers say, I will keep using my characters. In example, I feel I've failed with Hilde, so I've gone back to Sophitia + Cervantes. Not because I read they were better...but because I've used both since the very first game.
 
shura still has a point though - perhaps its time we make a chart and begin arguing matchups instead of coming up w/ arbitrary lists.
 
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