1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[Fuzion]

Tiers are always going to be relative to the players involved anyways. You're going to have a completely different tier list for absolute beginners, average players, above average players, elite players, and some imaginary tier list where someone is playing with solid mindgames and 100% readability of everything humanly possible and perfect execution.

For beginners(mashers) and average players, the highest tier characters are ones with easy inputs and annoying strings that can attack seemingly forever, because no one blocks. It's like Eddy in tekken; he's like god tier in a masher vs masher battle because THE KICKS NEVER ENDDDDDD.

Once you start nullifying all that stuff with defense and punishment, the tiers totally change. Only characters with legitimate solid tools remain top. We're all at different levels of experience with that stuff so of course our impressions of where characters stand is going to be different. Cervantes is a whole lot better when you have iGDR ready to go at any moment and can instant teleport through tons of shit other characters cant. Yoshi is a lot worse when the opponent can duck DGF K and block DGF B on reaction. Lizardman drops about a billion tiers against someone who can read 1K and CRWL A+K. All that's left is 2k and throws so no one is going to duck for my unsafe launchers.

So it really just depends which tier list you are evaluating. I agree with Nori though, at a really high level Cervy is very high tier with great execution.

 

[quietmimetyper]

Wow, that's a heck of a lot of strange reasons for your oppinion.

First off, the color flash on stance change ALWAYS happens, it's just often VERY fast. Let's say Raph does 6B,B. If the FIRST B knocks you down to 30% health, you will change and the flash will occur, but it will ONLY LAST UNTIL YOU'RE HIT AGAIN. In the 6B,B case you'll only flash during the span of time between the first and second B's. It's annoying, yes, but so long as you know what health you have left it's a minor issue.

Second, she was BARELY nerfed at all in 1.03 and certainly not more than anyone else. In fact, because he 2A no longer whiffs, I'd say it was an overall improvement from 1.02 (which would aid her in the tiers since a lot of others got hammered)

Here's why:

Tira has NEVER had a good ring out OR soul crush game. In fact, I'd say she had (and still has) a HORRIBLE ring out game and a MAYBE average soul crush game. She has never been able to reliably pressure for ring out and if people were blocking enough to get CF-ed by Tira, then they're just not used to playing against her.

So basically, they nerfed two areas that she had practically nothing in to begin with. Hence, you should be playing Tira EXACTLY the same way after the patch as before (aside from maybe using a few more GS 2As).

Lastly, she doesn't have a 33% chance of hurting herself more by doing JS 44K. She will ALWAYS do the same damage to herself so long as you DON'T HOLD K! Try it out. Small damage when you do JS 44K, LARGE self damage when you do JS 44[K].

Everyone seems to be kicking her down to low tier because of all these misconceptions they have about her. Most of what people say about her is pretty wrong when you've actually learned how to play her.

Every bit true. RO's and CF were never a part of her game. At the moment it's in the "if it happens, great, if not, whatever" category. 2A is a huge improvement.

I definitely agree with the last bit. She's not that random and the self-damage isn't that big of an issue. In GS, you poke like a champ since moves do more damage and you recover better, so it's not like you need to be spamming the self-damage moves. Not to mention the damage potential. The only issue as far as self-damage goes imo is if you're comboing with GS 666B and do it late and get it blocked. But you can practice that.

Curious to hear about the SS right problems. I've never really had issues with it any more than step in general. But she does have a bit of step problems, but I've started using AA more and it works out for me. Her range is a bit wonky, someone said that (JS only I believe) she sways naturally and this affects her range. Which makes sense to me because I go from WOW she has much better range then I thought, to DAMN it's like I'm playing Amy.

 

[thugish_pond]

If you have to rely on BB to win your Ralph matches then you're bad, simple as that. And Tira is a fine mid tier, I was turned off by the random stance changes as well, but you just have to adapt, she's a ton of fun to play.

Id like to see raph beat good players now that BB doesnt track. That was the only thing he had to solidly stop step. I know im not losing to raphs anymore.

As far as Yoshi goes, unless someone who plays him puts MCF or iMCF well into their gameplay, hes not that scary. People tend to get up to quick and get raped by dragonfly mixups.

 

[Millionz]

No these guys are right. Cervy is ranked C (Raph is clearly better), and Voldo isn't that good......wow. I'm so stunned I don't even know what to say. The words that come out of some of these peoples mouths is just.....wow

Shhhhh! let them think Cervy is bad ;p

If you have to rely on BB to win your Ralph matches then you're bad, simple as that.

IF you lost to a Raph that whored BB then you're bad, simple as that. See how easy that is?

Id like to see raph beat good players now that BB doesnt track. That was the only thing he had to solidly stop step. I know im not losing to raphs anymore.

>.<

 

[LargeBillsONLY]

The Only Accurate Tier List:

Good:
Soph, Cass, Cerv, Ivy, Mitsu, Amy

Bad:
Rock, Maxi

Average:
All others. Yes, including Yoshimitsu, whose lows are all incredibly easy block on reaction offline.

 

[D1rty_F1sh]

This is what I think the break down is:

Top Tier: Ivy, Sophitia, Cassandra, Voldo, (Cervantes)
Mid +: (Cervy) Yoshimitsu, Mitsu, Taki, Amy, Setsuka
Mid 0: Lizard Man, Kilik, Sig, Algol, Zasalamel, Tira
Mid -: Yun, Mina, Nightmare, Asta, Talim, X, Raph, (Hilde)
Low: (Hilde) Maxi, Rock

Top Tier:

Ivy: as always is a beast her JF Grabs are devastating Massive range, turtles.
Sophi/Cass: Punishing Princesses, you don't want to mess up against them. I got hit by Sophi's 236 B the other day and it alone on CH took a good 1/4 life.
Voldo: Good Mix-ups, most of his lows put him at good Advantage, Excluding 236B He is fairly safe, but his risk/reward for unsafe is great.
Cervantes: iGDR is a beast. Over Lows under Highs with massive combo potential after hit. He can out-combo damage most. I'm still torn between Top/Mid+

Mid +:

Yoshi: Great damage potential, good control, but I'm still not convinced he's Top Tier. RedDjinn I know your gonna lash out at me for this. But some of his good JF's are easily TC'd for CH except for his Crotch Punch but it has limited range. His best lows can be seen, so many combo set-ups are stopped. His Risk/Reward is decent but not enough to justify it. He rely's too much on 50/50 guessing games.
Mitsu: 2K, B combo wins matches simple as that. B:A(B~A) is devastating. However, many of his staple moves on block seem unsafe. A lot of stance changes lead to plenty of mix-ups. But his stance changes leave him linear.
Taki: Her PO's are amazing, read Hallister's review, her main short coming is range. she more than makes up for it with an i9 2bA attack. The fastest A in the Game. She's incredibly safe, but she can be out spaced with limited options to close.
Amy: Another quick girl with plenty of parry's and incredible launcher's. She's gonna win a lot of matches but just watch what happens when she gets spaced, yeah 236 can close distance but you can see it coming. Put her up against a ranged person and she is already at a disadvantage.
Setsuka: She is quick can close distance, has plenty of damage potential, but she seems counter-hit friendly. I haven't seen alot of her, so this one was a tough placement for me. Don't hold this one against me. lol.

Mid 0:

Lizard Man: Similiar in style to the sisters, just not as good. His crawl stance is good it Tech Ducks High and Mid but its linear. I will admit I have been beat by it, but after looking more into it, its limited. He has good damaging combo's, but his mix-up/wake up game is limited. However if you do his Crawl stance online, prepare to hear some of the funniest things people will say.
Kilik: Overall solid character, good juggles, massive range, good wake-ups and nice damage. He is one of those unsafe turtle style characters. He is just lacking in the mix-up department. Many of his best lows leave him at a disadvantage or simply with no good set-up to follow. As a side note: so many people have seen him online that they have seen many of his staple moves already, that being said, many Kiliks going into a match are already at disadvantage.
Siegfried: A solid character, with alot of potential. However, lows are lacking, mix-ups, are lacking, but he can out range many opponents, with plenty of CH options. Nightmare/Siegfried will never be as good as the nightmare from SC2.
Algol: Don't hold this against me, I haven't touched Algol since the 1.03 patch. For him I'm just taking the General consensus/putting him almost dead center in the list. Don't have alot about him, especially since he got the Biggest nerf.
Zasalamel:Good character with decent combo potential, but he is a vacuum. He sucks everybody into him with limited means of spacing. His B+K is great for spacing, however, it taunts if it hits leaving you at a disadvantage, and it does little to NO damage. Don't underestimate him though.
Tira: I really want to put her higher, she's solid, has a lot of valuable options, and has some good combos. It just comes back to her stance changes. Yeah you can switch in the middle of a combo. In Gloomy state she is too damaging to herself. In the event someone blocks, she is doing nothing to her opponent but she's doing 12 damage to herself (varries from move to move). It may not sound like a bunch, but get 3 or 4 of her hits blocked and see how bad it might be. She just relies on you to change your play style, when her moods change.

Mid -:

Yun-Seong: He is a Soul Gauge/CF Monster. However 236K series is easily stepped, and his overall style is linear. This is one of those people you don't want to fight toe to toe. He doesn't have a really good answer to side-stepping.
Sung-Mina: If someone wants to clue me in on her I'd love to hear some input on her. I don't know a lot about here, nor have I seen any real life from her. General Consensus Placement
Nightmare:Devastating Damage, Devastatingly unsafe. Stay in his face and he's done. If he spaces you, there are some serious consequences. STAY AWAY FROM THE WALLS.
Astaroth: With the loss of safety in the last patch, his way of dealing with close-quarters characters is limited. His range and damage still make this no easy battle. If you get inside, he is limited on safety, punishment is gonna win a lot of matches against him.
Talim: She is good, but her limited damage, short reach, and lack of options leave her in a bad position. She can win, its just an uphill battle. She needs to hit in bursts. She has to play the get in get out game. Wind Dancer is punishable on block from most characters.
X: Simply put not nearly as good as she was in SC2. She survives on misdirection, but just doesn't seem to be as good.
Raph: Limited options, he can still win. BB still tracks just not like it used to. He was higher on my list until 1.03 but he has no real way of preventing steppers but 2A. His move set seems linear. His parries are ok at best, they don't do too much for him.

Low:

Hilde: She has good combo damage, good range but limited options for close-quarters combat. Her 2K is a Mid?
Maxi: Too many moves leave him open to devastating juggles. Limited options. A close range fighter that is easily spaced/stepped. Not really a Soul Gauge beast. Nothing going for him.
Rock: He can be a hell of a turtle. His setups are ridiculous, but if you stay in his face, he's done. For him to be effective, the defense needs to be flawless. It's all about ground throws.


There will be some of you that will disagree with my positioning, or my reviews of certain characters. There are only a handful of characters that I haven't touched, which I have mentioned. I hope that if your gonna debate my, that your gonna do it respectfully. Please debate why you think i have someone in the wrong place.

 

[ChaCha]

It needs to be brought up early and often, since the very nature of this thread is misleading... That Tiers are pretty irrelevant in high level play.

Where a character falls in a perfect and even skill match up, almost never matters. Since 99.9% of all matches take place between unevenly skilled players.

Playing and winning are based off experience, full knowledge of your character and how to block/evade/defend against other characters. Though Amy is incredibly safe and has a great rushdown game, it doesn't mean she automatically beats Rock, nor should she ever be considered to be able to do so. The match up is not in Rock's favor, but his tier doesn't make him helpless, the player is just forced to play smarter and better than the Amy. Not a hard task if you have adaptation skills.

In the end, what does it matter what tier anyone is? We know who is easy to play and win with and we know good players can beat anyone with any character they play, most of the time.

So please keep this in mind.

cha cha

 

[Marginal]

This is what I think the break down is:

Low: (Hilde) Maxi, Rock

Maxi: Too many moves leave him open to devastating juggles. Limited options. A close range fighter that is easily spaced/stepped. Not really a Soul Gauge beast. Nothing going for him.

I don't really disagree with the tierage, but I think Maxi does have some tools you neglected in the quick writeup. He has a good collection of ring out options, and he's stronger at mid range than he is in close in part because of how vulnerable his looping leaves him. At mid range, he has an annoying mid stun with 8wr8_2A, he has a viable anti high with 8WR8_2K... He also has 44B which has good range and leaves him in RO with is probably his safest loop with the most options immediately available. He can also apply decent pressure via Oki.

His lack of loop safety, limited low attacks, and his weak damage options are his damning flaws IMO.

 

[BatousaiNori]

The Only Accurate Tier List:

Good:
Soph, Cass, Cerv, Ivy, Mitsu, Amy

Bad:
Rock, Maxi

Average:
All others. Yes, including Yoshimitsu, whose lows are all incredibly easy block on reaction offline.

This is the best list I've seen so far. I don't think Rock is necessarily "bad" (especially since the patch). I think he's right at mid. And Amy I don't think is top and I agree Yoshi is overrated. If Yoshi had his WS game from SC2, lights out. Also, Taki is insane in the right hands, it's just sad that so many people don't see it. But after so many players on AIM telling me to give up trying to convince people how good Taki is (even though those players agree), people won't believe it. Oh well, I tried to educate the masses;)

Fuzion: What up dude? Come to the Oct 11th tourney. And yes, Cervantes is disgusting (if used right). His options are completely retarded. I've been sworn to secrecy w/the info I've had shared w/me:(

RedDjinn: Honestly, nobody should bitch at you whether Yoshi is top tier or not. Yoshi is not overpowered, he has some REALLY REALLY good stuff but nothing broken. He's easy to pick up, like Amy but against somebody who knows Yoshi in and out, not as easy to win w/, even on the last patch. Whether somebody thinks he's top or not, who cares, keep playing him because he can beat any char in this game if played right. I don't think the tiers are so unbalanced like they were in part 2 and especially part 3. To each his own I guess.

 

[Rico]

I think there are two tiers of play with Yoshi:

For most people, Yoshi seems easy to get into because he has some solid, simple mixups and is a very well rounded character. This is your Upper Mid Tier Yoshi.

For people willing to put a lot more work and practice into his more complex maneuvers such as iMCF, a:B+K, and 1A:A... etc, Yoshi then jumps up a tier and becomes pretty damn awesome.

Again, I think he's going to end up being Top tier in theory and like upper-mid in practice. Only a small handfull of people are going to really take him to the top and it likely won't be enough to stop the onslaught of Sophies and Cervies.

 

[BatousaiNori]

I think there are two tiers of play with Yoshi:

For most people, Yoshi seems easy to get into because he has some solid, simple mixups and is a very well rounded character. This is your Upper Mid Tier Yoshi.

For people willing to put a lot more work and practice into his more complex maneuvers such as iMCF, a:B+K, and 1A:A... etc, Yoshi then jumps up a tier and becomes pretty damn awesome.

Again, I think he's going to end up being Top tier in theory and like upper-mid in practice. Only a small handfull of people are going to really take him to the top and it likely won't be enough to stop the onslaught of Sophies and Cervies.

Well, you are kinda right. There will not be an onslaught of Cervys. Most people think he's too hard to play, and you have to be REALLY on point to hit his iGDRs on punishment of moves and whiffs.

As far as Yoshi goes, aB+K is one of the easiest moves in the game. It's too easy to call a JF. 1A:A is borderline useless also. I played SC2 Yoshi and trust me, if 1A to WS mixups were like 2, I would have no reason to play anybody else. However, 1A isn't safe anymore and since there is no good WS game from Yoshi (Yoshi players will admit this), there is no fear anymore to duck. His best JF easily is iMCF. However, Yoshi can't win w/just that move. His lows are just too unsafe. Cervy gets nearly half life by blocking just one of them. I think this is his worst matchup IMO. And again, it's not that Yoshi is bad, or can't win, or has this secret untapped potential. It's that other chars IMO are better.

-Voldo is very safe, does crazy damage, great throw game and insane in Blind Stance. -Ivy has an answer for everything in this game, and is very safe.
-Cervantes isn't safe, but has 2 moves that nobody has: iGDR and iTP. Both put him over the top. However, when he blocks certain moves, and if you know what you're doing (most of his high damage combos are not entirely hard, but not easy) you can do damage that is just wrong.
-I talked to a couple of top players (won't say who) and they still think X is top. I have yet to see anything concrete, even on paper to be convinced.
-I thought Amy was top, but like my thoughts on Yoshi, I changed my mind. If you keep Amy out (which isn't hard w/some chars) she can't do much.
-Sisters are no longer as safe as they were. If you block 236B w/Yoshi, you get 3B. If you block it w/Cervy, you get iGDR or 3B. Ouch. You can no longer spam w/that. Sophie doesn't have much to make you duck. Cass does, barely but doesn't do brainless damage like she used to. The patch fixed many over powered moves she had (66B+G (fast break as it is), 66B+K, 4B, B:A did 94 damage. 66B+G, 66B+K, 236B did 86. Dumb. Now she just gets 64. Point being, they aren't the monsters they used to be. If you win w/Sophie/Cass, nobody can say any longer you are picking an easy char to play. You have to know what move to use and when.
-Taki is now the winner of the rushdown olympics. Fast, safe, excellent on CH. IMO, she's the one char who is so good, she can win w/out ever going low. Her CF game is top and nobody sees it. She is untapped material and top tier Taki players are already getting annoyed I'm posting how good she is haha
-I want to put Hilde as top, but then again, I don't. I'm 50/50 on her right now, so I'm not going to pretend I know what I'm talking about w/this char. If she's top, or just gimmicks, I wouldn't be shocked either way.
-Mitsu IMO is still super solid. There has never been a Namco game where Mitsu wasn't top tier and until his 2k, B is removed, he always will be. Excellent basic char, but like Yoshi, you can tell an advanced one from a beginner immediately.

IMO, those are the top chars. Naturally, I could be wrong, and like all of you, I don't know everything about the game but I don't see many chars who are better than them. Every single one of them aren't overpowered and can be beaten, but compare what they have to the rest of the roster, I think they have advantages and overall do better than anybody else.

 

[D1rty_F1sh]

Point made about Taki Nori, I sat down with her in Practice mode... OMG LOL. Ridiculous. I'm still afraid she can get spaced.

Marginal, thanks for the feedback on Maxi. I was going off of what i have seen from him. Didn't put alot of time into his move sets.

 

[dastrn]

It needs to be brought up early and often, since the very nature of this thread is misleading... That Tiers are pretty irrelevant in high level play.

Where a character falls in a perfect and even skill match up, almost never matters. Since 99.9% of all matches take place between unevenly skilled players.

Playing and winning are based off experience, full knowledge of your character and how to block/evade/defend against other characters. Though Amy is incredibly safe and has a great rushdown game, it doesn't mean she automatically beats Rock, nor should she ever be considered to be able to do so. The match up is not in Rock's favor, but his tier doesn't make him helpless, the player is just forced to play smarter and better than the Amy. Not a hard task if you have adaptation skills.

In the end, what does it matter what tier anyone is? We know who is easy to play and win with and we know good players can beat anyone with any character they play, most of the time.

So please keep this in mind.

cha cha

Perhaps you don't understand how Tier lists work, but saying that they don't matter is silly.

Characters are imbalanced. Saying "there's no better or worse character...it's all how you play them" is like saying "there's no better or worse football teams" or "there's no better or worse quarterback"...but there is. Characters are imbalanced and at a high level of play, those imbalances are exploited by good players.

Tiers don't say "this character always beats that character" because matchups will always exist in which a lower tiered character will matchup well against a higher tiered character. Also, player skill is obviously a much bigger factor in competition than character selection.

But in tournament play, the skill gap between the top 3-5 players will not often be drastic enough to overcome serious character deficiencies, which is why you see a lot of the same characters played in tournament in ANY fighting game.

I'm the first to admit that I'm not that good at SCIV. My main fighter is Smash. But the fundamentals of tiers and matchups carry over in every fighting game ever made.

 

[hobgoblin]

yea, im gettin tired of people saying tiers dont matter too. tiers say who is roughly better or worse than others. when a top tier has so many more weapons anddamage output than a bottom tier, its pretty lame to say that they can be used on the same level. you yourself said it would take much more skill to use a bottom tier, but thats exactly the point of having tiers.

 

[Dreamkiller]

Haha
Taki's always been SOLID.
Where people are getting all these cute adjectives for her, I dont know. But Taki lacks alot of shit.
People bringing up PO? Sure, use it for flash. Its awesome for showing off, I should know. Point is, PO is trash.
Mid tier is good. Either that or u guys are getting rocked senseless by obvious shit. lol.

 

[ChaCha]

Perhaps you don't understand how Tier lists work, but saying that they don't matter is silly...

My main fighter is Smash...

That's pretty funny. I was implying that people shouldn't take the tiers so seriously, and was warning new players to play what character fits them best, not letting other people's bias tier OPINIONS dictate their selection. As in the end, it is your development as a player that takes you far and the experiences you gain from playing others, learn to play against every character, regardless of their tier or match up...
So in the end, if Maxi is a low tier character, and someone wins a tourney with him, what the fuck will the tier list matter then? Why will it take a good number of players a LONG TIME to realize that even though a character is considered to be crap, and thus is overlooked... he can still win, easily, against the unprepared. Which is exactly what tier lists do, make people overlook characters.

Maybe it is YOU, who doesn't really understand the end result of tiers. Then again, you are a Smash player, and you take that seriously. So that certainly helps me understand why you are a dick, will post arrogantly and know nothing about real fighting games.

JUST MY OPINION THOUGH, LOLZ.

cha cha

 

[Rico]

Yeah, I find it funny when newer players single out people that have been around forever and aren't even saying anything that controversial.


Of course tiers exist, and of course they basically point out advantages and disadvantages between characters. What Cha is kind of saying is that the very act of being ranked in low tier KIND OF makes up for that character BEING worse since significantly less people will play that character and thus, significantly less people will know how to play AGAINST that character.

Can anyone say First Place Maxi? No? How 'bout 3rd? I can live with third =)

 

[LargeBillsONLY]

Spitting out a zillion different tiers doesn't work. It's just too blurry in the middle for all this mid- mid+ mid0 crap people want to do. Tiers should go like this: overpowered, balanced, underpowered.

Also, doing an entire detailed tier listing and including details on characters you don't know extremely well just doesn't work either. Just an example, but someone listed Yun as Lower-Mid because his 236K strings are steppable or something, but no Yun worth his shit uses 236K for anything but showing off, man.

Under/misused characters like Yun, X, Tira, Hilde, Voldo, etc, are too hard to place correctly simply because very few people play them well.

EDIT in response to the post below: I did not say these characters were hard to use. I said they were under or misused and I stand by that statement. If we were talking hard to use I'd have probably listed Ivy and Setsuka, though they also fit this mold, as there are very few good Ivy/Setsuka players floating around.

 

[KingAce]

You got it wrong voldo is probably the only one you listed that is actually hard to use.

 

[Maxou]

I didn't think someone could put Mitsu top tier and occult completely Setsuka's power.
She's not counter hit friendly as most people seems to think. Besides, she has positives matchs up against the entire roster (or 50/50 match up), and is Sophitia's nightmare (and the Nightmare of othr characters too).
Would you explain me why Mitsu is top tier? I REALLY can't get it. The char is mid+ at BEST but top tier? Come on...

I can't understand either why most of you put Hilde Low Tier or in the bottom tier.
Honestly, Hilde makes me think about Soul3 Setsuka. At first (and even 2 years after the game was out), everyone said : "she's mid tier" or "she has good things but she's too predictible, can be stepped too easily, she lacks lows"... Hilde is the same for most people, she's completely underated.
A super safe charcter, who's got blockstuns, good lows, strong autoGI, half life combos/70dmg/faaaaaar distance RO, good GI game, good step game, good spacing game, and kinda fast moves to hold close range (although limited)... it's just very strong, not easy to understand how to play with but very strong.