Official Ban Discussion Thread

[Tiamat]

you make funny jokes. hey guys lets all not punish sophie's 236B on guard now because "statistical data has no application at all whatsoever" and just let them spam an i13 move that does 55 dmg. :P

I play algol myself, I actually told oof to try using 1B at the tournament and how to tech trap from it etc. the night before the tournament via aim. I am well aware that fighting Algol is not fun, but that's still a shitty excuse for banning a character.

 

[kungfucolin]

Cha: BooYah!! was me saying hi. LOL

Regarding Sailor Mercury, In my opinion he does not belong with the cast. I mean Soul Calibur is a weapon based fighting game and this guy is throwing projectiles like no tomorrow. Granted that after fighting him a few times, there is a way around it. My issue remains as him having those projectiles. If there was a gauge for him to deplete everytime he does that then why not. Of course somebody might reference abyss but keep in mind that it took 20 mins for his fireball to come out.

My decision stand with the voting happening right now. You guys have experience and that will get you around Algol's tricks but more or less, i want matches to be enjoyable not time consuming or relentless keep away.

Better yet, if you can show me an Algol that does not rely on relentless projectiles then we have no problem. But from what i hear, he needs that to win.

NeoRussell

Here's a match vid of mine - Algol versus Setsuka.
YouTube - Soul Calibur 4 Setsuka vs Algol

As you can see.. Algol being strong has nothing to do with projectile gimmicks

Side note: I made this vid in the first week SC was out - I play him a little better now ^_^

*edit* Also, please put me down as supporting Algol as tournament legal.

~ Colin

 

[Ooofmatic]

You guys shouldn't really think much of my Algol. I don't focus on improving him as much as I do for Talim and Lizzy. He's just a secondary character for me, and I probably won't be using him in big tournies, as I would rather rep my two mains. So I know that I don't use Algol nearly as effectively as he could be used if a good player were to really focus on learning him as a main character.

 

[Tiamat]

- If Algol shoots a mid orb and attacks you low at the same point of impact do you even know that it's unblockable?. Of course you do know that you cannot fuzzy guard or block low and high at the same time right?.

proof that you have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about. orbs are special mid so you can block them high or low. no unblockables.

 

[Millionz]

- Random orbs can cost you guaranteed damage. This isn't Street Fighter or Dragon Ball Z people. Projectiles have no place in the Soul Calibur universe.

With all due respect I dont think that is a valid reason. Projectiles have no place in Soul Calibur? Should we ban Cervy because he has a gunshot (yes I realize it's easily avoidable but that wasn't your point). I totally agree with you that Algol is stupid and probably should be banned but saying unorthodox moves have no place in SC is just silly. Who are we to decide if they have no place in the SC universe?

I think people are giving the wrong reasons for banning Algol. It's not that he is a "boss character" or just the orbs that are broken. It's really the whole package. It's the orbs, covered with how many he can set out, its how they control the space, its how he does retarded damage off lows and mids which are pretty much safe, and how the few unsafe stuff he does have can be made safe by the bubbles.

In my humble opinion (and I know I'll get shit for this but whatever) if you play him a certain way utilizing all these things it's just damn near impossible for most characters to deal with his bullshit. And the ones that do really don't have the advantage on him. I think if he was left unbanned it's really going to degrade what is so far a very good game imo.

But at the same time I'm not in complete favor of a ban because you set a dangerous precedent to ban a LOT of stuff....so yeah I just contradicted myself >.<

 

[kungfucolin]

I think people are giving the wrong reasons for banning Algol. It's not that he is a "boss character" or just the orbs that are broken. It's really the whole package.

The whole package? If this is your argument, you're going to need to demonstrate that He's more powerful than every other character.
I can't see that happening.

~ Colin

 

[Millionz]

The whole package? If this is your argument, you're going to need to demonstrate that He's more powerful than every other character.
I can't see that happening.

~ Colin

In the words of Tiamat "Reading is Good"

I think people are giving the wrong reasons for banning Algol. It's not that he is a "boss character" or just the orbs that are broken. It's really the whole package. It's the orbs, covered with how many he can set out, its how they control the space, its how he does retarded damage off lows and mids which are pretty much safe, and how the few unsafe stuff he does have can be made safe by the bubbles.

 

[ShenOu]

Just some comments.

Jaxel : In that video, put it simply.. That's a video of Sow sucking.. as much as I respect him.. there was a shitload of holes in his gameplay, which looks like it was due to lack of Anti-Algol knowledge.. (don't take that out of context people)

A. 3BB is possibly one of the more punishable moves in Algol's Arsenal.. at what.. -18? -19 after both hits? 11A is also stab-able.. Yet i see a series of 11A, 3BB, 3BB, 11A all not punished.. Which is why I suspect that Sow had no Anti-Algol at that point of time, or was just freezing..

B. How many 66BAs did Sow eat? Its like.. there's no mixup in that crap.. Again, no Anti-Algol or just simply not his day.

C. BTW.. Everytime Algol tries to chain bubbles.. its a free 236236B for Soph.. Do you have any idea how much damage that is? Try it. You have to work on the timing a little.. But hey.. That means its broken!! Mitsu's 2KB is so easy to JTech right?

D. A lot of the times Sow got locked down by bubbles, its when the bubbles whiff.
There are even some points where I notice Sow just blocks.. realizes they will whiff, then run in when he loses all advantage and has no choice but to block again. Once more, lack of Anti-Algol knowledge.

E. I love the fact that Sow managed to win a few rounds/games with what seems like close to no ability to counter Algol's most Basic tools... This says a lot about Soph as a character it further enhances my point, but not part of this discussion so nevermind.

Seriously, if you guys think that's bad.. Wait till OOF starts using Shoyrukens and 1B, 1K more often..

IMO those are the meat of Algol's Gameplay.. Bubbles are an extra..
In fact at this point of time, It sounds like all everyone wants to ban is the bubbles.

My stand remains unchanged, I am for Algol being Legal and against all "Ban Algol" discussions until similar discussions take place for the likes of Cass and Soph..

I'll edit the other thread to reflect the thoughts here.. Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[Barry]

proof that you have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about. orbs are special mid so you can block them high or low. no unblockables.

I've only gone through his move list once so it's my fault for not knowing that.
That aside back on topic. You were right about them being special mid so obviously they can be blocked low.

Their are minors registered on here. You could've simply posted what you said without the obscenity. You should take another look at your post. That's a really nice example to set as a moderator. It really shows your maturity level and how responsible you are. I'd rather not soil a good thread with useless squabble. If you have any other obscene words you'd like to use keep it pm's, otherwise please stay on topic.

With all due respect I dont think that is a valid reason. Projectiles have no place in Soul Calibur? Should we ban Cervy because he has a gunshot (yes I realize it's easily avoidable but that wasn't your point). I totally agree with you that Algol is stupid and probably should be banned but saying unorthodox moves have no place in SC is just silly. Who are we to decide if they have no place in the SC universe?

I think people are giving the wrong reasons for banning Algol. It's not that he is a "boss character" or just the orbs that are broken. It's really the whole package. It's the orbs, covered with how many he can set out, its how they control the space, its how he does retarded damage off lows and mids which are pretty much safe, and how the few unsafe stuff he does have can be made safe by the bubbles.

In my humble opinion (and I know I'll get shit for this but whatever) if you play him a certain way utilizing all these things it's just damn near impossible for most characters to deal with his bullshit. And the ones that do really don't have the advantage on him. I think if he was left unbanned it's really going to degrade what is so far a very good game imo.

But at the same time I'm not in complete favor of a ban because you set a dangerous precedent to ban a LOT of stuff....so yeah I just contradicted myself >.<

Cervy's unblockable is not that hard to see and it's a high that can be ducked on reaction. You did however explained everything else I originally wanted to say, only so much better than I could. >=)

 

[Millionz]

Yeah I know it can be ducked on reaction but you said projectiles have no place in Soul Calibur. I think what you meant to say was "good projectiles" like Algol's have no place in Soul Calibur where as my point was that's not really a valid reason to ban him. But thank you anyways ;p

btw your avatar is awesome

 

[neorussell]

Here's a match vid of mine - Algol versus Setsuka.
YouTube - Soul Calibur 4 Setsuka vs Algol

As you can see.. Algol being strong has nothing to do with projectile gimmicks

Side note: I made this vid in the first week SC was out - I play him a little better now ^_^

*edit* Also, please put me down as supporting Algol as tournament legal.

~ Colin

Colin: You probably didn't find their importance back then. I wonder how you play him now. Mercury Bubbles are important and you know it. It's great to hear that you don't use it that much though. ;)

In all seriousness and i personally experienced this.
I participated in Clash awhile back using Abyss, granted I got 5th place but the fact that ALMOST everybody I played against complained to the organizers about me using Abyss. They didn't know how to fight him and all of them found it unfair that he was being used. This is no different. People will always feel cheated when they don't understand why that was allowed. This will be something all you Algol players will have to deal with in the future. You may not care but you will get hated for it.
Thats all I wanted to say about that. Next time you use Algol in a tournament, look and listen behind you. You are already getting criticized to a manner that you may not like. You may not care but image is important.

Jaxel did make a good point that this is a first in the SC series for a character to prepare a move when the opponent is in the process of blocking another move. Kind of unfair that nobody else has this ability.

Please don't tell me that I have to learn how to fight him, i already know how, i've proven it twice. But I still find him wrong. Not sure why but I either think he does not belong or he is just unfair to have that kind of unique power. That's my opinion so don't put bullets on me.

Tiamat: Regarding your youtube comment, i almost won against him. Whether i had a scrubby Algol or not, it was that easy to use him. That easy to get that much damage and that easy to piss people off. Keeping in mind that I really only used him for 1 hour. No Lie.

My whole point is not to ban him anymore, that was already covered by what Cha Cha posted.

My new point is how cheasy (pun) he is to use, how many players will complain about losing to him, and more importantly, how many scrubby players will take advantage of this fact.

For all you Algol players, rather than telling people to learn how to fight him, how about creating an anti-Algol thread? You already heard us say he is a gimmicky character then show us he's not. Telling us that we just need to fight him is just like saying TOO BAD. Not really a good response. Educating us about Sailor Mercury will make us realize he is not broken. There are some good ones in this thread but would be nicer if it was cleaner.

I will continue to use him for he is fun to piss off people. I do however question fellow Algol players in using him. Either an easy win since the opponent will probably not know how to beat him, to piss somebody off, or he is just your main (unlikely). My Algol will not use Mercury Bubbles (juggles are fine) nor will I play keep away. I hate turtlers with a passion and I would rather not play than base my game on that.

NeoRussell

 

[Niichts]

Funny thing about that video, and to criticize the sophie play.
OOF starts shooting orbs... He started with 4A+B everytime, shooting the diagonal orbs. There is an opening. Sophie's response to this is to sidestep. Every time. Its your own fault at some point.
I understand you cant always get between them right away (which is the only thing messed up, imo) ...but sidestepping is not the answer.

Also cannot stress GI enough.
Easy way for setsuka to get stage 8 auto GI...Then who's in trouble.

 

[Tiamat]

Barry: you guys are just pissing me off your your absurd ignorance and I'm sick of it. half the people in this thread don't even seem to know that you can GI bubbles (not that doing so solves the problem entirely but it is an option that helps)

I assure you this is nothing personal regardless of my rudeness.

all you ignorant people go visit this thread which is several weeks old now http://www.caliburforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33587&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

 

[Jaxel]

Tiamat... you need to chill...

Besides... GI a bubble mid and he can still hit you with a low... nothing you can do about that. GI a bubble low and he can still hit you with a high... There are many times where you just cant risk the possibility of GIing his bubbles. As I said before, the major problem is that its essentially having to deal with TWO characters at once. Yes, you can GI the bubbles, but while you are GIing the bubbles, you cant do anything about Algol himself!

 

[ShenYu]

People. Chill. Develop some anti-algol strats first before mouthing off. You'll find he's not as bad as he looks. The brokest things about him are 1B, BB, 1A and 1K with honorable mention to shoryuken just for being fricking annoying. It's possible we'll find some pretty good bubble setups in the future but as of now I can't find anything overpowered about them.

 

[CrazyYoshimitsu]

I thin kwhen we coem to thsi road. It either two things people complain about. And that is Bubbles, or a simple I don't like him and can't beat him. But I do the smart thing, and don't say any names.

Also, Yoshi has something to say to the Algol haterz.

Yoshimistsu: Thou who says Algol is cheap is nothing more, but a sack of Soul edge waste on the ground. So you get my best unblockable for your foolish mistakes.

That was just for lol.

 

[BLDave]

this thread is silly again.

once anyone has played a few matches against a good algol, half of his game is gone. his high damage options can ALL be guarded on reaction and his 66BA become recognizable.

His bubbles are special mid. they can be blocked high or low. that means if you have someone applying pressure with a bubble shield, ignore the bubbles and block their attack appropriately.

Jaxel- As far as not being able to GI algol and his bubbles, once you GI a bubble, it becomes yours and fires straight back at algol. this means that any mixup he tries he is going to be hit out of by the bubble unless he is out of position, but that also means he cant mix you up.

A good player can punish Algol for even trying his bubble game, in fact i recently saw a GREAT player get absolutely humiliated for it. Some of this has been outlined in this thread earlier, take a peek, trust me, it works.

Tiamat: Regarding your youtube comment, i almost won against him. Whether i had a scrubby Algol or not, it was that easy to use him. That easy to get that much damage and that easy to piss people off. Keeping in mind that I really only used him for 1 hour. No Lie.

My new point is how cheasy (pun) he is to use, how many players will complain about losing to him, and more importantly, how many scrubby players will take advantage of this fact.

For all you Algol players, rather than telling people to learn how to fight him, how about creating an anti-Algol thread? You already heard us say he is a gimmicky character then show us he's not. Telling us that we just need to fight him is just like saying TOO BAD. Not really a good response. Educating us about Sailor Mercury will make us realize he is not broken. There are some good ones in this thread but would be nicer if it was cleaner.

I will continue to use him for he is fun to piss off people. I do however question fellow Algol players in using him. Either an easy win since the opponent will probably not know how to beat him, to piss somebody off, or he is just your main (unlikely). My Algol will not use Mercury Bubbles (juggles are fine) nor will I play keep away. I hate turtlers with a passion and I would rather not play than base my game on that.

NeoRussell

this sounds VERY scrubby. i get wins with rock if the player I am playing doesn't know how to fight him properly or hasn't seen any of his stuff. You want anti-algol strats, then you make them. its not my job to teach you how to beat my character, its not your job to teach me how to beat your character. Thats why we compete, to prove to each other that I have a better grasp on how to win IN GENERAL than whoever else.

so much damn whining from you people. its pretty clear that Algol isnt upsetting the balance in this game. It is possible to beat him and most would argue that he isnt even in the running for best in the game. Just because he can employ a fighting style or tactic that you personally don't like, doesn't mean that he should be banned. Adapt and figure out a way to fight it. Dont want to? think its boring? tough. I dont like how yoshi gets GREAT damage off of hard to see/deal with mix ups. on counter hit? bye bye life. I love to fight yoshi though, because every time i do, i get better at it. Competitive gaming isnt and has never been easy street.

 

[ShenOu]

so much damn whining from you people. its pretty clear that Algol isnt upsetting the balance in this game. It is possible to beat him and most would argue that he isnt even in the running for best in the game. Just because he can employ a fighting style or tactic that you personally don't like, doesn't mean that he should be banned. Adapt and figure out a way to fight it. Dont want to? think its boring? tough. I dont like how yoshi gets GREAT damage off of hard to see/deal with mix ups. on counter hit? bye bye life. I love to fight yoshi though, because every time i do, i get better at it. Competitive gaming isnt and has never been easy street.

Discussion Ended with that post IMO.. its not easy to argue against.

I mentioned it before, if you want us to come up with Anti-Algol on a silver platter from you without any work... Sure.. show us some Anti-YourChar popping up along the way.
Even the most hardcore of BanAlgol supporters agree that Sophitia/Cass/Yoshi/Amy what have you are (in not obviously) potentially overpowered and/or broken compared to Algol (let alone the rest of the cast).

My personal standard is simple.
You want to ban Algol?
Fine by me, Can we have a proper discussion on the other characters then.
You want Anti-Algol Strats served to you on a silver platter without thinking for yourself.
Sure, Can i have that treatment for the above-mentioned characters then?

If you say "If the Algol players aren't going to teach us or tell us why Algol isn't broken.. We'll just ban him!". That's the equivalent of putting a gun to the heads of our girlfriends and telling us that they'll be dead if we don't tell you where we hid our ivy apples..... Even if we budge, you're still going to shoot them anyway.. Because you can't deal with the fact that we have girlfriends and you don't.

Not very Civil is it? Sure it sounds exaggerated to some, but that's exactly the sort of position we're in right now.. My analogy is failing me, I'll leave the rest to your imaginations.

Tiamat: Seriously, chill.. It'll all go away nice and easy, I'm a testament to that.

 

[Jaxel]

Jaxel- As far as not being able to GI algol and his bubbles, once you GI a bubble, it becomes yours and fires straight back at algol. this means that any mixup he tries he is going to be hit out of by the bubble unless he is out of position, but that also means he cant mix you up.

The bubbles reflect at the exact angle they were shot at... So if he shoots a bubble and then steps, even if you GI it, it wont come back and hit him. So he can shoot a bubble, step, and attack you while you are GIing the bubble. And he takes a launcher and that bubble wont stop him.

 

[Angrel-San]

I like Algol a lot but I decided to drop him.

Since they banned him here for whatever reason, I just lost interest and lost momentum with the character. Pity! T_T

Picked up Ivy on the meantime and Ivy's funfactor > Algol's funfactor. Maybe if tourney organizers allow him again I would give him another go but I don't know...I was on a high with Algol before the ban. >_<