Raphael General Discussion

BelovedChild said:
Okay, Piggy's latest info nailed it, I take back the 4A argument entirely.

HOWEVER, I don't take back that it is a useful move that shouldn't be ignored in Raphael's pokes. It is however, not a Mitsu 66B counter.

I have this brief window of availability until I begin Paramedic school, so I'm going to revitalize(aka, make my own) Preparation guide for new Raphael users that are interested in learning him. It'll cover all the commands you can use in prep, what use they have, what will own it, what characters can easily counter it, etc...so any input you guys want to make SURE is going to be in the Prep guide you can feel free to post it here or in my "new to 8wayrun" thread. I'd appreciate all input from Hudathan, Pendragonsfall, Trolt, Egg, Belial, and anyone else I haven't mentioned that has a solid understanding of Raphael and how to play him effectively.

Ruiner
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i dont use it for pokes because its unsafe

as for dodging i use it for that
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

BelovedChild said:
Hudathan, speak of the devil o_O

You'd be on there, ofcourse, but you don't play online. Sad, because I know you're a much better player then I....(Pendragonfall I don't know, but the other Raphaels....)
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whats that supposed too mean?0_- jK i know i blow hard

pendragon is very solid

he doesnt get on much though
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Great there are so few Raph players on Live I've yet to run into one! And now there is one less.
I want to play more Raph on Raph matches to learn some new tricks, but there just are not any Raph mains on Live. I thought I found a Raph player to fight here, but he used Asta and Lizard when we fought.
I guess all I can do is watch videos of your guy matches, but watching can't beat doing. (BTW my gold mem has lapsed so I can't play online atm)

Oh about Black-Red Raphs, mine is that way because he is wearing the same thing that Alucard is wearing in Castlevaina:SOTN just recolored.

On topic; does 6a have any good use? I can't find any.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Nomad, seriously, everyone who's plays this game on the 360...how...the...FUCK...do you play a fighting game on that controller? I mean, I already despise the xbox because when it first came out it single-handedly refuse to cater to anything but the brain-dead A.D.D gamer(shootershootersshooters) and totally forgot about any intellectual games (RPG's, strategy/puzzle). The controller however, was the biggest turning off point, when I first saw that thing, I automatically thought there would be no fucking way I'd ever play that. THEN I ended up playing SC2 on my friends xbox....with THAT CONTROLLER. Yes, you xbox players are all playing below what your capable off, and it's probably all just because of a completely retarded, stupid controller.

Raphael's just not a popular character, especially with the prettier, more shiny Amy hanging over his head and a good 2 tiers above him. There's not that many Amy players on PSN either, As for Raphael's? Me, Pendragon, Trolt, Noodles, Angelic...maybe 2..3 others? There's just very few serious Raphael mains out there. If you're one of them, be proud.

Anyway....

6A is an i15 high, It's a stun/knockdown on CH that can interrupt plenty of moves, I BELIEVE 2B is guaranteed but not sure on that..... now WHAT SITUATIONS would you rather use 6A over 6BB(which is faster, and leads into prep, which you may/may not want depending on who you are fighting)? That's the real question......

Ruiner
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Yeah, CH 6A -> 2B is garaunteed. And 6BB is still better.

You can add me if you want, Nomad. Just let me know if you want mirror matches, because I switch characters a lot. Raph was my first main, but lately I've been trying to learn just about everyone.

I play on xbox, but I play with a stick. :)
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

What about CH 6A -> 11B ? Is that guaranteed?

Oh god, I'm listed on Gamefaqs again.. I guess I'll get tons of challenges from random Gamefaqs people on PSN, lol.
 
I've been hearing this talk of step vs 8wayrun elsewhere Hudathan, and it's confusing me. let me understand something

If I tap 2 or 8 ONCE, that's a step, if I tap it TWICE, it's an 8wayrun, correct? Why would 8wr be so easily punishable but not step? you can iG during step but not 8wr? I need more clarification here, because this is elite SC4 talk I'm missing out on and I want the goodies.

For the prep guide: This was my plan...I'll make a thread(non-official one) that'll contain all the prep data we'll use and need. We work things out, get all the frame data down EXACTLY(like the Prep A in all transitions, I'm NOT going to try to find SEB frame data, FUCK THAT ROCKET SCIENCE...x_x....), discuss options, discuss IN-DEPTH Prep game(more below on that) make everything look like a pretty paper, then make a NEW THREAD where we can sticky it and then oh mah gawd, we have a great Raphael guide.

After the basic prep info, This is also a must for my guide:

1. Conditioning(aka, opponent begins to stall during your prep assault in fear of Prep A, this CONDITIONING allows Raphael to begin his Prep K:K and Prep VE transitions, which usually be a bad idea otherwise)

2. Prep extensions (Prep BB, Prep SEA B, why/when to use both, why NOT TO ABUSE prep BB)

3. Effective Prep Strings (Prep SEA B Prep A/Prep BB K:K/Prep SEA B BB VE A etc....)

4. Prep vs characters that can RAPE YOUR PREP (Taki, Cervantes, Cassandra, etc)

5. Prep vs Sidesteps, and how NOT to get owned by them(I'm not going to lie, I need more help on this one too)

That's all I can think of for now, but yeah, alot of info that's going to be in this guide, so all help is welcome.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

...11B is guaranteed after 6A?

The only reason I'm not jumping up and down right now and I have trouble with the 11 input right now, I get it off, but if the 11B is guaranteed, how frame sensitive is that? Like, is the window 2/3 frames? I don't know if I'll get that off consistantly, but damn I want to try now....

Ruiner
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Er what I meant to say is.. IS it guaranteed? I wasn't sure, and I'm not quite good at testing things out.
 
BelovedChild said:
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few things

-Yes you are correct about step. Also if you hold 2/3/8, etc that is also an 8wayun. 8wayrun has it's weakness for a couple reasons
1. In general step is stronger than 8wayrun. You will step a lot more stuff if you just "step" as opposed to 8wayrunning.
2. 8wayrun opens you up to run counters.
3. step G aka iG is canceling your step early into a guard. What this does is it allows you to sidestep some moves and block. For example, at +0 if you u can step G cassandra's BB. this is useful because say you are at +0 again and she does one of her step killers (4AB) hoping that you step, your step G will guard it. It is essentially an option select in certain situations

- I'm too lazy to look for it but Kohell (what ever happened to that guy?) made a post on the old Caliburforums with some pretty indepth research on Raph's prep. If I recall correctly, he had even figured out the frames for prep A/prep~VE transitions/prep~SEA & SEB etc and posted it on an Excel document. but yeah i'm too lazy to look for it ;p
 
My computer wont allow me to see the wiki data he has millionz, otherwise I woulda checked it out already. The only frame data I'VE SEEN is the one posted in his thread, NOT any of the links inside the thread.

Thanks for the step info btw
 
Hudathan said:
Let me offer some thoughts on this since it's something that comes up in my game a lot.

The options you listed such as 22B, 33KB, etc requires you to commit to 8wr, not just step. SCIV continues the trend of punishing 8wr by allowing many moves to become counter hits. It's the reason why step~punish is no longer a good criteria in order to judge a character's effectiveness due to the risks involved. Characters that possess static punishment options from standing are now much more effective, especially if they have decent step (not 8wr) speed. For example Hilde would not be as effective if her charge moves were 8wr moves.
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yes.
The 2~2,8~8 commands would get u a very shallow step (even smaller than VE lol).
Standing punish BB for raph means he loses initiative, but that's not so bad considering he has 44B to deter quick counter-attacks. What's a good list for full step whiff, then punish ?
As for VE being limited in terms of stepping ability and damage followups, that's not how I apply it. A single step~VE at the right time will get raph to the opponent's side/back in many situations. Tekken players like Millionz can back me up and know the kind of situation I'm talking about. Avoiding options with VE gives you a powerful option in the guaranteed VE A, and VE A on hit puts raph in one of the best situations available to him. I can go on for a bit that I'll leave it at that. To me correct VE application is often more viable than fishing with 8wr.
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Problem is (for me) is I (not sure if it's true) feel that VE once it steps an opponant, definately has axis problems if the opponants continues in a forward motion, such that either tracking OR range leaves raph with VE K as his only option. However, thats the only few situations where i'm even able to use VE as a neutral-step, so I guess i should try it more out myself.



Millionz said:
few things


- I'm too lazy to look for it but Kohell (what ever happened to that guy?) made a post on the old Caliburforums with some pretty indepth research on Raph's prep. If I recall correctly, he had even figured out the frames for prep A/prep~VE transitions/prep~SEA & SEB etc and posted it on an Excel document. but yeah i'm too lazy to look for it ;p
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I think only holyforce has played him online, and man that guy churned out some pretty impressive/accurate frame data when the game was still in it's infant stages. I'm certain that kolhell has a post in here somewhere linking to his spreadsheet (with some pre-liminary hilde frame data)
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

BelovedChild said:
...11B is guaranteed after 6A?

The only reason I'm not jumping up and down right now and I have trouble with the 11 input right now, I get it off, but if the 11B is guaranteed, how frame sensitive is that? Like, is the window 2/3 frames? I don't know if I'll get that off consistantly, but damn I want to try now....

Ruiner
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Lol i'm having trouble with 77 inputs.

...and ? I'm not even registered on gamefaqs.. must be an imposter
 
WuHT, moves that move forward quite a bit does pose problems for VE but the good thing about VE is that you technically don't need to commit to anything other than the dodge itself, and you can easily visually confirm what follow ups are available. You can always just let the VE end if you're not in a position to immediately take advantage. I feel that the ability to land VE A is very important, not to mention the step~VE strategy can often cause problems for other linear characters.

Also Mitsu cannot hit confirm his 66B. He's got to commit to the whole thing if he wants both hits. The move is not good unless he sees a big whiff or uses it off knockdowns.
 
Hudathan said:
WuHT, moves that move forward quite a bit does pose problems for VE but the good thing about VE is that you technically don't need to commit to anything other than the dodge itself, and you can easily visually confirm what follw ups are available. You can always just let the VE end if you're not in a position to immediately take advantage. I feel that the ability to land VE A is very important, not to mention the step~VE strategy can often cause problems for other linear characters.
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.. epiphany moment!

Hmm I suppose that just simply stepping a move (even though counter) definately causes the other guy to go "O NO shouldn't do that again"... and anytime raph cuts down on the opponant's movelist it's a big plus.
 
What's the Solid top 4 moves to commit to once you get a VE A off?

Throw, 3B, 33KB.....?

I know I'm forgetting something key here. What's the frame advantage off VE A anyway? +4 on block, more on hit?

Ruiner
 
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