Hate Speech: Of Clean Hits, Designs, and Time Travel

It’s time once again to fire up the Hate Speech Wayback Machine for another field trip back in time. Today we’ll be going back into the hazy, primordial era known as “oh, the last couple of weeks or so.” It was a simpler time. A better time, back when men were men, women were men, and all children were manly children.

Though records from this dark age are few and fragmented, some bits of its knowledge have been passed down to our modern age in the forms of myths, legends, and hushed whispers around our campfires. One such tale is that of the beast known as “Clean Hit,” and that is where our journey will begin.

The Fair and Balanced No-Spin Zone™

I’m on record as being opposed to the Clean Hit mechanic’s implementation, but my highly unscientific sampling of the conversations around here tells me that some people are having disproportionately negative reactions, so today I’ll be a bit of an apologist. No, I don’t like it right now, but I suspect it will ultimately become a minor gripe. More importantly, its implementation, however flawed one may think it, evinces certain positive and useful elements on which we might capitalize.

What follows will be a review of the mechanic as we’ve seen it thus far: what it does wrong, what it does right, and what we as thoughtful players can take away from these considerations to apply elsewhere and thereby gain an advantage over our opponents.

Clean Hit randomly awards bonus damage upon successfully landing one of a character’s signature moves. The most obvious objection here—and it’s a big one—is the word “random.” Certain random effects are tolerable, though hardly desirable, provided that match results are still determined by player skill. Awarding extra damage haphazardly has the real potential to affect the outcome of a match, and it’s likely that everyone who regularly plays in tournaments will eventually feel a string of Clean Hit Shenanigans (CHS, I’m coining it here!). The only reason I’m not completely up in arms about this is that the damage itself, while noticeable, doesn’t appear to be game-breakingly so. The proper attitude, then, is one of disappointment rather than fury.

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Though fury does have it's benefits...

Daishi’s stated rationale behind the mechanic (see: Bibulus’ interview) is twofold: it provides a “fair” mechanic for less hardcore players while simultaneously nudging players toward using the good stuff. Let’s examine them in turn, beginning with the issue of fairness. There’s a non-obvious distinction to be drawn between the words “fair” and “equal,” and negotiating this subtle definitional quirk poses something of a design challenge.

Fairness as we intuitively understand it can best be described in the words of unofficial Hate Speech mascot Ronald Reagan’s ideological arch-nemesis, Karl Marx, who wanted “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Fairness erases difference, equalizes results, and is utterly desirable in single-player games and Mario Kart.

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Notice how you never get stuff that shoots behind you when you’re in first place? Communism.

Equality, by contrast, is far simpler—it just demands that everyone be given the same opportunities, results be damned. It’s also a wonderful guiding philosophy for a competitive game. Interestingly, Clean Hit is an equal mechanic, not a fair one. It doesn’t award any special advantage to the less-skilled player, but instead simply provides a chance, at random, for either player to gain an even greater reward than they otherwise would have. In fact, since Clean Hit only applies to moves that actually land, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that more-skilled players will land more attacks than their less-skilled opponents, it’s no further feat to assume that Clean Hit will end up rewarding cagey veterans more than anyone else. In that sense, Clean Hit doesn’t really pass the sniff test as a gift to the casual fan. It’s just unnecessary randomness.

The good of Clean Hit—no, the brilliance of it—by contrast, is in Daishi’s second major reason. Providing a roadmap of sorts that will take players to the best moves for their character is an incredibly savvy design choice. Like it or not, we’re in an age in which games are expected to teach us how to play them. Think for a second. When was the last time you purchased a game with an instruction manual taking up more than a couple of pages? Manuals are growing smaller and smaller (and evaporating entirely in some cases) because, frankly, people aren’t reading them. Players jump in, press buttons, and rely on their intuition and past experiences to get them going. As such, taking an active hand in guiding these players toward a set of useful moves demonstrates real thoughtfulness on the part of Project Soul. We as members of this community shouldn’t want our games to be intimidatingly complex. If new players languish for months in hapless scrubdom, it’ll just turn them off.

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See! I told you DOA was more pro than stupid old SC!
Following the Breadcrumbs
Smart thinking on the designers’ part, even if the implementation is flawed in this instance, does more than simply tell us that Project Soul is being conscientious. It should also remind us of something I pointed out a couple of weeks ago (you didn’t think we were done with the Wayback Machine, did you?): games are intentionally designed environments, and elements of that design provide us with clues for how to play better. For a case in point, let’s switch gears a bit and look at a new mechanic about which I’m very excited: CE/BE.​
As we all know by now, BE properties are as varied as the moves to which they are attached. We have also seen, however, that CE attacks also come in distinct flavors which will ultimately have implications for both how they’re applied and how each character is played overall. Based on what we’ve seen so far, I’d divide CEs into three broad groups: grabs, conventional, and utility.​
Grabs are, well, grabs. They’re also ridiculously fast, from the look of it. Combined with the fact that they can’t be blocked or broken, this opens up a number of intriguing possibilities for application. First, they probably combo off of a lot of things you might not suspect. A super-fast grab CE could possibly change an innocuous counterhit BB from a mild setback into a first-class ticket to frown town. Second, these supers will likely punish some “safe” moves, which dramatically changes the tenor of a match once the player with that CE has a little meter. Finally, they may interrupt certain unpleasant traps or sticky situations. We’ll need to do plenty of experimenting.​
“Conventional” CEs are things like Maxi’s, Ezio’s, Pyrrha’s, etc. They hit fast and hard, and are likely best as punishers or in parts of combos. We’ve seen people having success with random CE as a defensive interrupt in the open field, but at least a couple of these CEs appear to be unsafe, so that will limit their usefulness in this regard.​
Nightmare’s counter-CE provides the perfect example of a “utility” move. Its special GI properties compensate for its poor speed and linearity, lending it to creative use within specific contexts. I’m deeply interested in finding out if other characters have similarly exotic CEs, but in the meantime I would think of Patroklos’ as also being at least partially a utility move because of its ring out properties.​
Beyond these wide ranging categories, CEs need to be evaluated in much the same fashion as we would any conventional move. How safe is it? What’s the damage? Can I combo into it? Does it provide strong wakeup options? A CE that isn’t necessarily huge damage may yet become an invaluable tool for a character if it allows players to create massively favorable situations when it hits. Conversely, a CE that appears good in a vacuum might not have as much of a place in a given character’s movelist. Take, for example, Nightmare. His overall design since SC3 has dictated that the best way to defeat him is to do as little as possible while he kills himself trying to open you up, and SC5 Nightmare still appears vulnerable to punishment, 2A interrupts, and the like. Given all that, there appears to be less incentive to attack him than certain other characters, thereby diminishing the usefulness of his counter CE outside of situations wherein an opponent’s guard is about to break. Does this make his CE bad? No, but it does tell us that Nightmare players should generally be basing their meter usage around BE moves unless they know their opponent has to start getting reckless.​
Just as the Clean Hit flash guides new players toward solid moves, the properties of a character’s CE will guide veterans toward advanced techniques of offense, defense, and overall meter expenditure. Remember, we’re dealing with a designed environment. Move properties weren’t given to Namco on stone tablets from an otherworldly source—they’re all created with specific intention. A little thought and experimentation on our parts will help reveal that intention, and it will certainly help us kick the crap out of the “lol 3B->CE so good!” crowd.​
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Urghhhhhh brain hurtsssss...
Wtf Hates, where is the article about CaS?!!?!?!?!?!
Homework:
Weigh in on Clean Hit, fairness, balance, etc. if you care to. I’d love to get a discussion going. While you’re at it, take a crack at doing what I did in the second part of this piece: break down a move and let it tell you how it should be used, then share. I’d particularly love to hear from those of you who got to spend some time playing SC5 at NEC. Give your impressions!​
 
If what your saying is true about clean hit moves being the only ones worth using, namco might as well further cut move lists to the point where everyone only has 10 moves, which makes for a boring game.

I never did say that. And not to mention, most 2D fighters have a rather limited movelist comparitively, and yet people still get hype for that. But I digress - my point is that Clean Hit is excellent for new kids because it pushes them to important moves, leaving them to find out the use of the niche moves later on their own.

It has NOT, and never will be my point that: Clean Hit moves are the only ones worth using. You're the second person who's had to twist my point to try and argue against it. Stop that shit.

And besides, aren't AA and BB moves not in that list of moves with clean hit? I doubt people are gonna abandon those moves just because their not encouraged to.

If generic AA and BB's were Clean Hits, that WOULD be all you would ever see. That would be extremely poor implementation - imagine Pyrrha's AA possibly doing 40 damage. Assuming it's similar to Cassandra or Sophitia's, you wouldn't really need anything else - it's safe on block, gives + on hit, tracks, and can possibly have great damage out put. Mix it up with a BB that has Clean Hits, and you would have a perfect example of failed Clean Hit implementation. Of course, I have faith that Namco WILL NOT do this because of how terrible it would make the game.

But you already know that's a fucking stupid idea, and I'm pretty sure you also know that I also never said people are going to stop using bread and butter moves, nor would they use nice moves that actually DO have a use. Again - stop twisting my words. Niche moves like Sieg 44K and Cass 44B+K are completely different from AA and BB, and you know that.

If those "other" moves are as bad as you say, why would namco put them in in the first place? Just to mess with people?? I doubt it. They included those situational moves for a reason, they have a purpose.

Yes, they do. Usually, that purpose is extremely niche and not as useful compared to that character's other moves. For the third time - I never said they don't have a purpose. I said that purpose is usually eclipsed by other moves, or it happens that their niche use is usually not applicable in normal matches - Siegfried 44K and BT B+K are great examples of both of those, respectively.
 
@Bib.

The range, jump over lows, hit's mid, great damage, small tracking; No other move in her list has the same combination of positive qualities.

I think this all started many posts ago on another thread when I was comparing 44K to 44B+K, which I stated that butt stomp is everything the other move is, plus more. 44K is linear, has no tracking, is slow, hit's high, and punishable. 44B+K hit's mid, has some tracking, has more damage, hit's grounded opponent, and if I'm not mistaken, a little faster too.

88_22B+K has essentially the same range, jumps over lows, is a mid, also hits grounded, still does decent damage, leaves you in a better position, and is much safer on block (-12 vs -18). I think it has better range too and faster tech jump frames though I've never bothered to measure that. 88_22B+K also has a more convenient fast input for long range 8wr whiff punishing as you are already holding down the directional input. If you whiff 88B+K, at least you aren't back turned like you are with 44B+K, and I think 22_88B+K lets you recover faster on a whiff than 44B+K too.
44B+K only beats 8wr at close range (not exactly miraculous tracking, always loses to step and 8wr'able at range), and why would you ever use that move at close range? (slow and puts you in easy launcher punish range on block up close). Plus 44B+K is slow enough and has such a unique animation/voice cue, its easy to gi or step it on reaction even online. Its tech jump frames also come out pretty late, to the point that to actually jump a move your opponent pretty much has to start it after you've already randomly 44B+K'ed at range.

Sure its a fun move to land, and fun to kill scrubs with nothing but it. But really, aside from back 8wr whiff punishing from far away, its pretty much useless (barring the occassional combo use, but its a filler move then, or the occassional tech trap of which there are better options in my opinion). You have better options up close and at neutral at range its going to be stepped/gi'ed.

To bring this sort of back on topic: 22_88B+K is the move that should be encouraged over 44B+K. Both are situational moves, but, the one is superior in pretty much every way other than a handful of points of damage. So either you can risk 44B+K for guaranteed more damage + slight forward ring out ability, or do the safer 22_88B+K for less damage and sometimes get rewarded with the same damage anyways if it had clean hit properties.

However, if both moves are in the game still, which do you give the clean hit bonus to? If you put it on 22_88B+K to encourage its use, then it becomes an ever better move and 44B+K becomes even more pointless to use as the risk/reward ratio is even more in favor of a 22_88B+K that can randomly become more damaging. If you put it on 44B+K to try to swing the risk/reward ratio back in favor of risking it for the potential additional damage, then you are encouraging players to play badly by praying for the clean hit damage on a generally inferior move. You could just scrap 44B+K and then you wouldn't need random damage bonuses to encourage more 22_88B+K use as it would be then be Cass's only move with those particular properties (long range tech jumping linear move).

So really, in my opinion here, clean hit isn't really serving the purpose its intended to. Either you are buffing up a character's already strong moves (which could be encouraged by just removing the other moves that share the same purposes), or you are buffing up a bad move and encouraging the use of those. Seems to me like it would be better just to get rid of the inferior options in the first place. A move being good in the first place should be encouragement enough to use it. And being constantly punished for doing a move should be clue enough that its a bad idea (especially if the game popped up messages like "guaranteed hit" like broken destiny did in the trials mode to let you know that you just gave away a free hit).
 
@andur

22_88 B+K is also a good move, no doubt.


I would agree that 22_88 B+K is a much more useful move, for the reasons you gave. It does have almost everything butt stomp has, I'll give you that.

However.......

Butt stomp has a little more tracking, not much mind you, but some. It can be enough to be the different between catching step and whiffing. I have whiffed 22_88 B+K many times due to side-stepping, where butt stomp has the small potential to catch them. I've also landed butt stomp on GI whiff.

In all honesty, your right, butt stomp's primary use is whiff punishment, and that's the situation where I land it the most.

Are there more practical moves for more diverse situations? Of course. Still doesn't mean it should never be done. Even I know better than to throw that move out more than once in a while :)

I don't think shrinking the move lists to the point of it being nothing but bread and butter moves is the answer either. What they really need to do IMHO, is buff up the less useful moves. Every game has gotten shorter and shorter on the move lists, and I hate to see this trend taken to it's logical extreme in future SC's. I want more moves, not less, and not just more moves, but more useful moves.

If clean hit really is only 5 extra damage, then I guess it makes hardly any difference. When I first heard of clean hit I was expecting something like 20% extra damage, which would be really REALLY stupid, IMO. I still don't like it though, for the sake of keeping things as fair and balanced as possible. But oh well, small potatoes.
 
los que saben del juego, aqui hay tantos programadores que deberiamos hacer una compania que se llame 8wayrun y sus secuaces.
 
Clean hit properties are available for one or two moves for each character. So what's the problem?

The way I understand it is that this Clean Hit mechanic was put in place solely to help guide new players into using good moves with which the clean hit property is applied. To me though, I don't think it'll be much of a help, especially since clean hits supposedly do only 10%+ damage and are completely random. Which just makes me wonder, why do people want this in the game if it's A) Random/Annoying and B) Probably won't get the job done. I don't see a good reason =/
 
How is it annoying?
Daishi has to design a game that appeals to new players, to expand the player base. He has implemented a lot of things to accomplish this.

The game has a reduced moveset. Less stuff to learn.
The game is more rushdown. Less turtle friendly.
Nerfed ringouts. Less frustration
Simplified difficult inputs for the purpose of making characters like Ivy more accessible.
Etc

Because the current hardcore base has an advantage over newer players. He's trying to reset everything so that everyone starts at about a similar level learning the game. Making the level of entry even smaller for noobies.

I agree with his philosophy on this. I wish it could be applied to Tekken too, lol but that's a cheap shot.
 
@kingace

Agreed with everything expect the part about reduced moveset.

Is it just my imagination, or is every sequel after sc2 reducing the moveset further and further down? What will happen in 10 years if SC survives?? Can I expect a SC in the future where everyone only has 10 moves?

This shit is getting ridiculous.

If you want to make the game easier to play, make inputs easier (less complex), make a larger buffer window, make combos easier to pull off, put less negative frames on block, make throws easier to break, make wake-up faster, reduce tech traps, and remove just frames. There are many ways to make the game easier, not all of them I mentioned, that don't involve further reducing move sets.

Now, I don't necessarily believe that doing any of these things is a good idea per se, but I would rather have any of those than having less moves.

I'll say it again: Make the less useful moves better, don't eliminate them.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just surprised (well I guess I shouldn't be), and a bit pissed, that SC is going down that road.

If this continues, there may be a point where I stop playing SC. I hope SC5 isn't that point yet. I really don't know for sure until I get my hands on the game (pre-ordering today BTW)....

The waiting and suspense is killing me........
 
Clean hit is on some weird stuff like Xiba 8K, which is the same as Kilik's, a high TJ kick. "Give me strength!"

So much for showing what moves people should do, unless there's some unknown use for 8K.
 
Uh, what are you talking about? It is indeed your imagination that movesets have been reduced following Calibur 2. Do you even remember Calibur 2 dude? Like, top level SCII? Because of 2g making all the would-be decent moves godlike, move lists were literally boiled down to 5 or 6 situational moves that could be used pretty much any time without much consequence. On the contrary, move lists have gotten HUGE since 2.

Again, do you remember SCII? Everyone had a pocket Ivy, Asta, Nightmare, and EVERYBODY had a pocket X. Characters were so simple and cut and dry to learn that you could literally just pick them up. Not so in 3, and even less so in 4. I mean think about Ivy alone man - just her. She got loads more complicated in 3 and then INSANELY complex in 4. I encourage you to look at her SC2 movelist and compare it to her SC4 one. Case in point: The only character you can even remotely compare to a SC2 character in 4 is Amy, and like SC2 chars, everyone has a pocket Amy.

About your "how to make an easy game" recipe... no. You've just mentioned exactly how to make a BAD game. You want a 3d fighter that's +frames on block after a ton of moves? Almost no true tech traps? Big buffer window and easy inputs? Go play Tekken. See how well that game is doing? (it's not doing well at all) Let's just sit back and let the people who know what they're doing work.
 
About your "how to make an easy game" recipe... no. You've just mentioned exactly how to make a BAD game. You want a 3d fighter that's +frames on block after a ton of moves? Almost no true tech traps? Big buffer window and easy inputs? Go play Tekken. See how well that game is doing? (it's not doing well at all) Let's just sit back and let the people who know what they're doing work.

Er, just for the record, tech traps, small buffer windows, unsafe launchers and lows are all mechanics imported from Tekken into SC3. So you should probably thank Tekken as opposed to bash it. Tekken also has the Tekken Crash league in Korea, probably one of the most successful fighting game leauges in the world right now. I'm not taking either side because, well, I perfer SC, just pointing out historical accuracy.
 
Granted, but you must also admit that SC3 is trash. Therefor, I find your point rather moot. As part of the same company, it's expected that certain things will bleed into sister game franchises. The core mechanics, however, remain very different. I believe it's what's holding Tekken back, actually.

Tekken has way too many safe launchers for me to even entertain that unsafe launcher comment.

Crash being popular or not, the game is dead in the western world. Korea and Japan get the game years earlier than us, and play at a higher level than 90% of America. I don't see your point - or at least how it counters mine, that: putting OPPRESSIVE plus frames on more moves will make a good game, or taking away the MINIMAL damage tech traps - as opposed to the HALF LIFE tech traps of Tekken, or making the already incredibly intuitive movement/input system of SC even easier would absolutely destroy the game from the core outward.
 
Sorry if my post seems ignorant of your point. Tekken has been my main tournament game for many years - and like an old wretched wife after a divorce, has left me cold and bitter toward it. I know the game VERY well, and so I feel I can speak of its faults without many doubts. I'd be glad to continue this off-topic conversation via PM's if you want. As someone who is also probably on TZ, I'm eager to hear your opinion on it.
 
Uh, what are you talking about? It is indeed your imagination that movesets have been reduced following Calibur 2. Do you even remember Calibur 2 dude? Like, top level SCII? Because of 2g making all the would-be decent moves godlike, move lists were literally boiled down to 5 or 6 situational moves that could be used pretty much any time without much consequence. On the contrary, move lists have gotten HUGE since 2.

Again, do you remember SCII? Everyone had a pocket Ivy, Asta, Nightmare, and EVERYBODY had a pocket X. Characters were so simple and cut and dry to learn that you could literally just pick them up. Not so in 3, and even less so in 4. I mean think about Ivy alone man - just her. She got loads more complicated in 3 and then INSANELY complex in 4. I encourage you to look at her SC2 movelist and compare it to her SC4 one. Case in point: The only character you can even remotely compare to a SC2 character in 4 is Amy, and like SC2 chars, everyone has a pocket Amy.

About your "how to make an easy game" recipe... no. You've just mentioned exactly how to make a BAD game. You want a 3d fighter that's +frames on block after a ton of moves? Almost no true tech traps? Big buffer window and easy inputs? Go play Tekken. See how well that game is doing? (it's not doing well at all) Let's just sit back and let the people who know what they're doing work.[/quote}]

"Now, I don't necessarily believe that doing any of these things is a good idea per se, but I would rather have any of those than having less moves."

This is what I said word for word. I never said doing these things were good, just that I would rather have that than a shorter move list. READ my post before you derail it.

About sc2 being a 5 or 6 move game. That WASNT the intention of namco. Step guard made many moves useless, yes. The point I was trying to make is that the game had more moves FOR MOST CHARACTERS, I can't speak for all. Yes, some have gotten more complex, like Ivy, but she's the exception, not the rule.

Whether or not the game mechanics allowed a person to use some moves, is irrelevant, my point was simply that they HAD more moves and I wish the next game did as well, but of course, without Step G BS.

Don't criticize someone's post if you take things out of context.
 
When you're quoting someone's post, don't make it a train wreck eyesore.

Edit: I'm sorry. I should give you more credit.

Alright, it's obvious that we all want more USEFUL moves. We all know that this would make the game deeper, more subject to freestyle play instead of cookie-cutter offensive maneuvers, and we'd learn new things about the game all the time because people would be testing (and playing) a lot. That's not a subject of argument. I think we all agree.

HOWEVER. (And in case the caps didn't hint, this is a big 'however'), as Daishi-san already stated, he believes this is not what the game needs right now. In order to draw in, and not overwhelm newcomers to the series, things must be simplified. The aim here is to draw players from existing scenes, like Street Fighter, as well as people who haven't played fighters at all into this game. In order to do both that as well as cater to the hardcore players, certain give-and-take processes had to take place. They had to add certain things that add depth, as well as take some sophistication from the game at the same time. Adding "EX, Supers, meter management", visible side step lines to signify different step properties, and a whole slew of features, while minimizing character movelists and maintaining character usefulness is a very difficult process.

So again, let's just chill and let them do their thing. It was made VERY clear to us that once this "Reboot" (and I'm using Yoshi-san and Daishi-san's direct words) occurs, then in future games, they will once again get more technical, and the move list will increase, just like the previous title progression. Fair enough?
 
Clean hits are just like critical hits from Team Fortress 2. If the competitive community doesn't eliminate them somehow, then it's bound to cause massive controversy. Good luck keeping SCV alive with clean hits in the game.

History repeats itself in one form or another.
 

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