Hate Speech: Of Clean Hits, Designs, and Time Travel

  • Moderator
It’s time once again to fire up the Hate Speech Wayback Machine for another field trip back in time. Today we’ll be going back into the hazy, primordial era known as “oh, the last couple of weeks or so.” It was a simpler time. A better time, back when men were men, women were men, and all children were manly children.

Though records from this dark age are few and fragmented, some bits of its knowledge have been passed down to our modern age in the forms of myths, legends, and hushed whispers around our campfires. One such tale is that of the beast known as “Clean Hit,” and that is where our journey will begin.

The Fair and Balanced No-Spin Zone™

I’m on record as being opposed to the Clean Hit mechanic’s implementation, but my highly unscientific sampling of the conversations around here tells me that some people are having disproportionately negative reactions, so today I’ll be a bit of an apologist. No, I don’t like it right now, but I suspect it will ultimately become a minor gripe. More importantly, its implementation, however flawed one may think it, evinces certain positive and useful elements on which we might capitalize.

What follows will be a review of the mechanic as we’ve seen it thus far: what it does wrong, what it does right, and what we as thoughtful players can take away from these considerations to apply elsewhere and thereby gain an advantage over our opponents.

Clean Hit randomly awards bonus damage upon successfully landing one of a character’s signature moves. The most obvious objection here—and it’s a big one—is the word “random.” Certain random effects are tolerable, though hardly desirable, provided that match results are still determined by player skill. Awarding extra damage haphazardly has the real potential to affect the outcome of a match, and it’s likely that everyone who regularly plays in tournaments will eventually feel a string of Clean Hit Shenanigans (CHS, I’m coining it here!). The only reason I’m not completely up in arms about this is that the damage itself, while noticeable, doesn’t appear to be game-breakingly so. The proper attitude, then, is one of disappointment rather than fury.

qMjSN.png
Though fury does have it's benefits...

Daishi’s stated rationale behind the mechanic (see: Bibulus’ interview) is twofold: it provides a “fair” mechanic for less hardcore players while simultaneously nudging players toward using the good stuff. Let’s examine them in turn, beginning with the issue of fairness. There’s a non-obvious distinction to be drawn between the words “fair” and “equal,” and negotiating this subtle definitional quirk poses something of a design challenge.

Fairness as we intuitively understand it can best be described in the words of unofficial Hate Speech mascot Ronald Reagan’s ideological arch-nemesis, Karl Marx, who wanted “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Fairness erases difference, equalizes results, and is utterly desirable in single-player games and Mario Kart.

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Notice how you never get stuff that shoots behind you when you’re in first place? Communism.

Equality, by contrast, is far simpler—it just demands that everyone be given the same opportunities, results be damned. It’s also a wonderful guiding philosophy for a competitive game. Interestingly, Clean Hit is an equal mechanic, not a fair one. It doesn’t award any special advantage to the less-skilled player, but instead simply provides a chance, at random, for either player to gain an even greater reward than they otherwise would have. In fact, since Clean Hit only applies to moves that actually land, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that more-skilled players will land more attacks than their less-skilled opponents, it’s no further feat to assume that Clean Hit will end up rewarding cagey veterans more than anyone else. In that sense, Clean Hit doesn’t really pass the sniff test as a gift to the casual fan. It’s just unnecessary randomness.

The good of Clean Hit—no, the brilliance of it—by contrast, is in Daishi’s second major reason. Providing a roadmap of sorts that will take players to the best moves for their character is an incredibly savvy design choice. Like it or not, we’re in an age in which games are expected to teach us how to play them. Think for a second. When was the last time you purchased a game with an instruction manual taking up more than a couple of pages? Manuals are growing smaller and smaller (and evaporating entirely in some cases) because, frankly, people aren’t reading them. Players jump in, press buttons, and rely on their intuition and past experiences to get them going. As such, taking an active hand in guiding these players toward a set of useful moves demonstrates real thoughtfulness on the part of Project Soul. We as members of this community shouldn’t want our games to be intimidatingly complex. If new players languish for months in hapless scrubdom, it’ll just turn them off.

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See! I told you DOA was more pro than stupid old SC!
Following the Breadcrumbs
Smart thinking on the designers’ part, even if the implementation is flawed in this instance, does more than simply tell us that Project Soul is being conscientious. It should also remind us of something I pointed out a couple of weeks ago (you didn’t think we were done with the Wayback Machine, did you?): games are intentionally designed environments, and elements of that design provide us with clues for how to play better. For a case in point, let’s switch gears a bit and look at a new mechanic about which I’m very excited: CE/BE.​
As we all know by now, BE properties are as varied as the moves to which they are attached. We have also seen, however, that CE attacks also come in distinct flavors which will ultimately have implications for both how they’re applied and how each character is played overall. Based on what we’ve seen so far, I’d divide CEs into three broad groups: grabs, conventional, and utility.​
Grabs are, well, grabs. They’re also ridiculously fast, from the look of it. Combined with the fact that they can’t be blocked or broken, this opens up a number of intriguing possibilities for application. First, they probably combo off of a lot of things you might not suspect. A super-fast grab CE could possibly change an innocuous counterhit BB from a mild setback into a first-class ticket to frown town. Second, these supers will likely punish some “safe” moves, which dramatically changes the tenor of a match once the player with that CE has a little meter. Finally, they may interrupt certain unpleasant traps or sticky situations. We’ll need to do plenty of experimenting.​
“Conventional” CEs are things like Maxi’s, Ezio’s, Pyrrha’s, etc. They hit fast and hard, and are likely best as punishers or in parts of combos. We’ve seen people having success with random CE as a defensive interrupt in the open field, but at least a couple of these CEs appear to be unsafe, so that will limit their usefulness in this regard.​
Nightmare’s counter-CE provides the perfect example of a “utility” move. Its special GI properties compensate for its poor speed and linearity, lending it to creative use within specific contexts. I’m deeply interested in finding out if other characters have similarly exotic CEs, but in the meantime I would think of Patroklos’ as also being at least partially a utility move because of its ring out properties.​
Beyond these wide ranging categories, CEs need to be evaluated in much the same fashion as we would any conventional move. How safe is it? What’s the damage? Can I combo into it? Does it provide strong wakeup options? A CE that isn’t necessarily huge damage may yet become an invaluable tool for a character if it allows players to create massively favorable situations when it hits. Conversely, a CE that appears good in a vacuum might not have as much of a place in a given character’s movelist. Take, for example, Nightmare. His overall design since SC3 has dictated that the best way to defeat him is to do as little as possible while he kills himself trying to open you up, and SC5 Nightmare still appears vulnerable to punishment, 2A interrupts, and the like. Given all that, there appears to be less incentive to attack him than certain other characters, thereby diminishing the usefulness of his counter CE outside of situations wherein an opponent’s guard is about to break. Does this make his CE bad? No, but it does tell us that Nightmare players should generally be basing their meter usage around BE moves unless they know their opponent has to start getting reckless.​
Just as the Clean Hit flash guides new players toward solid moves, the properties of a character’s CE will guide veterans toward advanced techniques of offense, defense, and overall meter expenditure. Remember, we’re dealing with a designed environment. Move properties weren’t given to Namco on stone tablets from an otherworldly source—they’re all created with specific intention. A little thought and experimentation on our parts will help reveal that intention, and it will certainly help us kick the crap out of the “lol 3B->CE so good!” crowd.​
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Urghhhhhh brain hurtsssss...
Wtf Hates, where is the article about CaS?!!?!?!?!?!
Homework:
Weigh in on Clean Hit, fairness, balance, etc. if you care to. I’d love to get a discussion going. While you’re at it, take a crack at doing what I did in the second part of this piece: break down a move and let it tell you how it should be used, then share. I’d particularly love to hear from those of you who got to spend some time playing SC5 at NEC. Give your impressions!​
 
I think if there's a tutorial in-game teaching the basics of Clean Hits, then it will serve it's purpose of guiding newbies to the moves they should be using.

Random idea I had: it'd be cool if tutorials were incorporated into the story mode. Take the Olcadan training and then streamline them into missions in the story mode. I recall something along those lines in the Tower of Lost Souls, but if you put it in the main story, then every new player is bound to go through the tutorial-like missions.
 
Yeah, Clean hits look pretty coolio. Although, I hope the turtoil doesn't really take up the story like "the guanlant" in BD
 
My first thought about clean hit was the same as yours, "big deal, it applies to both sides and the better player should eat less hits anyway" but then that also depends on what move gets a random clean hit. Inevitably i feel some characters will have clean hits attached to shitty moves and thus not a useful mechanic. I know they SAY the moves will be good but i know clean hit will benifit some characters more than others, much like CF didnt benifit every character.
 
*its

oh, and cool column brah

Command throw supers with fast start-up punishing "safe" moves is far from unheard of, and there will probably be ways around it that may take some time to discover. If I may hazard an early guess, I think moves with crouch properties could be a potential counter to them.

Random damage is also in a lot of other games and works fine, for the most part. I do think it's kind of a gimmicky and ham-fisted way of encouraging people to use moves the developers think are good -- especially considering that other moves may have utilities that are yet to be discovered -- but ultimately I see it having little to no negative effect.
 
I think the damage the SCV cast do already has enough damage (especially Asta) without there being a chance of higher damage. Not much tactic when even Natsu and Maxi do Kilik damage.
 
nice story and well put man.
impo, i think that the clean hit mechanic will seldom come into play because of the simple fact that like you said more experienced players will be comboed less/hit less frequently thus making the probability of a "clean hit" a lot less likely. but for tournament standards i think that a "clean hit" may actually decide a round, which could inevitably decide a match. so i think that they should be like a really low possiblity ratio or should be taken out of the game what so every. its not that its bad just the random affect could effect more then just online games.
2. CE's are awesome. Impo i think that they are a great way to introduce a new kind of strategy into the game. yes i know that there are die hard sc fans that will say that they stole this idea from SF4. But in all honesty who f$%#ing cares. i think that it will add some amazing strategic traps and defenses into the game. also i feel that as we learn the game more people will find some amazing ways to combo CE's into strings such as many people have with patroklos. Simply put i think that CE's are just one of many new and fresh ideas that will make scV last for a long time.
 
I for one, agree w/ProjectSoul decision on the Clean Hit mechanic...
It allows new players to know which moves to use given the situation.
But i guess they figured that TIRA can't be the only random bitch in the game. LOL!
 
Leixia's CE is short range but pretty fast. It is easy to combo into but it doesn't do much damage at all. I fell its usefulness will come into getting out of bad ring positioning. If her back is up against the edge of the ring her CE can reverse the position and now the Leixia player is in better position to push for a ring out or catch their opponent's step trying to escape from the edge.
 
So far after Asta's ground throw I have never seen someone duck Asta's grab CE. If this is guaranteed then that is going to lead to some pretty crazy damage or even a fee RO if your close enough to the ledge and have some meter. If there is a wall then all the more damage from wall shenanigans.

Asta get's a free ground throw attempt after CH 6K. Sure 6K is linear, but it has the potential to pretty much kill the opponent if Asta has spare meter after his CE. One wrong guess on the grab break....ouch.
 
On Clean Hits:

I don't understand why a lot of people seem to value the "Trial by Fire" method of learning Soul Calibur - that is, losing until you figure out what's right on your own. This is the kind of shit, however, that produces stuff like "lol Siegfried 44K is gud becuz heetan alwayz uses it and its so powerful omgz" because it encourages them to find out what works on their own. Being that so many new people these days (myself included) are coming from XBL or PSN, finding what works usually means finding some laggy, shady-ass shit, not what would work in an actual offline competitive match.

As we have seen so many times before, new kids - ESPECIALLY those coming from online - have this funny idea in their heads that they are somehow better at this game than people like RTD, thuggish_pond, or even scrubs like HRD, Bubbles and even myself. Case in point, I've seen someone admonish Bubbles for not using Prep, particularly Prep K, with reckless abandon. For you non Raphael players, it's generally agreed upon that being reckless with Prep and stupid unsafe shit like Prep K will help you lose the match so fucking fast your head will spin.

With Clean Hit, we can assume they'll be spamming better moves instead. This is better for a few reasons. Imagine two scenarios where you have to explain to a noob:

  • Why Siegfried 66B, 44K, 1AA, and 44(A) aren't really "good moves".
OR
  • Why Siegfried SCH B, agA, and B6 are "good moves".
It's so much easier to tell someone that "B6 is a really good poke with Siegfried, but if you use it here, you'll do a lot better" than it is to tell them "What the fuck are you throwing out 44K for? That's stupid as shit, and Heaton's a terrible Siegfried player. Stop taking notes from him." Even if you say the second one without any venom whatsoever, all they will hear is "Hey, you're wrong about this, you should be using these moves instead.". If they're spamming Clean Hit moves instead, however, they'll hear "You're mostly right, here's some PRO LEVEL TIPS to help you out." People are much more receptive to ideas when you're building on theirs instead of tearing theirs down. I think that Clean Hit should help cut down on the number of Online Pros that we see come in here and be dumb.

Laconically, it's not always what you say, it's what they hear.

On breaking moves down:

I've already broken down 1B*A+G*B+G and SRSH B*K mixups here. Get at it.

On CE/BE:

Siegfried's is already broke. Check out this Day 0 combo I made:

3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ jagA ~ W! ~ 3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ CE ~ 44K
 
I'm really curious the frames attached to Pyrrha's CE... The range on it is sick so if it's fast that might be a serious constrictor for ranged characters as a punisher on block.

Asta CE combos may be sick... But I'm curious if the damage scales if you really combo into it. Also who cares if he gets
 
What are you on about? You know Siegfried's 44k is pro..... (sarcasm intended). However I agree with your points there pretty correct all round.
 
Asta CE combos may be sick... But I'm curious if the damage scales if you really combo into it. Also who cares if he gets

Preempting your unfinished thought, I'll use this as an opportunity to point out that I think Astaroth's CE will be nastier as a tool to create really unpleasant wakeup scenarios rather than as a dealer of raw damage. It's not that devastating in those terms, but having your opponent end up spinning and helpless is kind of juicy.
 
On Clean Hits:

I don't understand why a lot of people seem to value the "Trial by Fire" method of learning Soul Calibur - that is, losing until you figure out what's right on your own. This is the kind of shit, however, that produces stuff like "lol Siegfried 44K is gud becuz heetan alwayz uses it and its so powerful omgz" because it encourages them to find out what works on their own. Being that so many new people these days (myself included) are coming from XBL or PSN, finding what works usually means finding some laggy, shady-ass shit, not what would work in an actual offline competitive match.

As we have seen so many times before, new kids - ESPECIALLY those coming from online - have this funny idea in their heads that they are somehow better at this game than people like RTD, thuggish_pond, or even scrubs like HRD, Bubbles and even myself. Case in point, I've seen someone admonish Bubbles for not using Prep, particularly Prep K, with reckless abandon. For you non Raphael players, it's generally agreed upon that being reckless with Prep and stupid unsafe shit like Prep K will help you lose the match so fucking fast your head will spin.

With Clean Hit, we can assume they'll be spamming better moves instead. This is better for a few reasons. Imagine two scenarios where you have to explain to a noob:

  • Why Siegfried 66B, 44K, 1AA, and 44(A) aren't really "good moves".
OR

  • Why Siegfried SCH B, agA, and B6 are "good moves".
It's so much easier to tell someone that "B6 is a really good poke with Siegfried, but if you use it here, you'll do a lot better" than it is to tell them "What the fuck are you throwing out 44K for? That's stupid as shit, and Heaton's a terrible Siegfried player. Stop taking notes from him." Even if you say the second one without any venom whatsoever, all they will hear is "Hey, you're wrong about this, you should be using these moves instead.". If they're spamming Clean Hit moves instead, however, they'll hear "You're mostly right, here's some PRO LEVEL TIPS to help you out." People are much more receptive to ideas when you're building on theirs instead of tearing theirs down. I think that Clean Hit should help cut down on the number of Online Pros that we see come in here and be dumb.


Laconically, it's not always what you say, it's what they hear.

On breaking moves down:

I've already broken down 1B*A+G*B+G and SRSH B*K mixups here. Get at it.

On CE/BE:

Siegfried's is already broke. Check out this Day 0 combo I made:

3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ jagA ~ W! ~ 3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ CE ~ 44K



Damn! Look at you! Intelligent and gutta at the same time. Amazing.
 
Damn! Look at you! Intelligent and gutta at the same time. Amazing.

Man, all y'all know the only gutta I am is gutta trash.

And before one of you know-it-alls decides to make a probability equation on why I'm wrong and Clean Hits are bad: this phenomenon has a psychological basis.

Some Niggas Talkin' 'Bout Positive Reinforcement said:
The examples above describe what is referred to as positive reinforcement. Think of it as adding something in order to increase a response. For example, adding a treat will increase the response of sitting; adding praise will increase the chances of your child cleaning his or her room. The most common types of positive reinforcement or (sic) praise and rewards, and most of us have experienced both as the giver and reciever.

Source: http://allpsych.com/psychology101/reinforcement.html

The important part about that is the "praise and rewards". In this context, praise would be as I said early: "You are right to use this move, well done! Here are some other circumstances in which to use this move!". The reward part comes from having a random chance of getting extra damage off of it.

This is in direct contrast with punishment. Yeah, I know, we ain't spanking kids, but hear me out.

Some Niggas Talkin' 'Bout Punishment said:
Punishment refers to adding something aversive in order to decrease a behavior. The most common example of this is disciplining (e.g. spanking) a child for misbehaving. The reason we do this is because the child begins to associate being punished with the negative behavior. The punishment is not liked and therefore to avoid it, he or she will stop behaving in that manner.

Note that punishment also comes in positive and negative flavors, the flavor being described here being positive punishment. Negative punishment would be removing something in order to decrease a behavior - not as applicable here. Also, punishment is a separate idea from reinforcement - reinforcement and punishment are NOT opposites.

Anyway. In other words, positive punishment is what we do every time someone comes in here and tells us about how Algol 11A is totally legit, and we're all fucking scrubs. Even the coddling, not name calling shit is technically punishment - you're telling them it's wrong ("adding an aversive") in order to get them to use better moves and stop being lag trash ("decrease a behavior").

A dude named B.F. Skinner (look him up) did some studies on this shit, and found out that reinforcement was universally more effective than punishment in getting people to do X behavior.

So suck my dick, haters.

EDIT: Another thing I just noticed. "Punishment" (psychology) is when you do something to decrease the likelihood of a behavior. "Punishment" (fighting games) is when you do something guaranteed when your opponent fucks up, which (usually) has the effect of making your opponent more wary of using the same tactic again - that is, decreasing the likelihood of a behavior. This allows for conditioning, which is known in both circles as doing something to directly influence the behavior of someone via association with a particular stimulus - in this case, avoiding using a move ("influence the behavior") because their opponent has been punishing their ass ("directly influencing) with a certain move ("particular stimulus").

Fighting games were made by psychologists, for psychologists.
 
Didn't everybody complain about random damage and so they needed to change Tira? Imagine if a match was Tira vs Tira, would there be anything to complain about? And if I'm not mistaken, competitive fighting is about who has the better skill, and who knows how to use the characters the best. Does Clean hit lend itself to that? Only certain moves get 'Clean Hit'? thats the implication I gathered. I've been getting the feeling that the leaders of Project Soul want to tell us how to fight instead of the patrons discovering for themselves by getting to know the character. Here's a time machine trip for you: the player who learned their chosen champion the best won the match; the player who knew the character the best earned the privilege of doing the most impressive moves and inspired the newbs; and some one who wasn't a newb could overcome a match against a higher tiered character by using GI when he/she deemed fit. i always figured the use, and victory, of more complex characters like Ivy to be something of a status symbol, as well as kicking ass with a reknowned 'weak' characters. But those days are behind us now with these balanced games. What does everyone feel about the freedom two players had of negotiating the level of handicap between players? Remember those days?

I do enjoy randomness. I like Tira's mood being random, it's fun, but not when it results in damage. The old fashioned way of affecting out come of the match with randomness was to toss onto the stage items like those that provide extra life or cause damage. Project Soul has all these flashy indicators about what's going on so that we know everything is fair and defeats the purpose with 'clean hit'. How can we proclaim satisfaction in a balanced competetive fight if the loser can reserve that he would have won if it weren't for 'this or that'?
 
complex characters like Ivy

People still believe this?

Didn't everybody complain about random damage and so they needed to change Tira? Imagine if a match was Tira vs Tira, would there be anything to complain about? And if I'm not mistaken, competitive fighting is about who has the better skill, and who knows how to use the characters the best. Does Clean hit lend itself to that? Only certain moves get 'Clean Hit'? thats the implication I gathered.

If you're the more skilled person, then why would a slight damage increase in certain moves matter? That skill should allow you to:
  • Not get hit via proper spacing
  • Not get hit via reading your opponent better
  • Getting CHs based on predictable reads
  • Block those moves and punish appropriately
Among other things. If increased damage should automatically trump skill, as it seems that you are saying, then anyone that picks up a controller should easily be able to best even an intermediate with unblockables.

But that doesn't happen. Because damage has never trumped player skill, except in the narrowest of circumstances. For example, @ DEV 2011, Vincent VS LP, Vincent getting a lucky (was really all skill) Just Frame punish with Sophitia - he wouldn't have won if he hadn't gotten the JF. And you know what happened?

We all went fucking nuts. Vincent was all "oh my God I shit greatness" and LP looked like he was about to dropkick Vincent's smug ass off the stage. Shit like that creates MAD hype. It was beautiful.

I've been getting the feeling that the leaders of Project Soul want to tell us how to fight instead of the patrons discovering for themselves by getting to know the character.

How many people play contrary to the design intent of a character and actually manage to be extremely successful? This is an honest question - I'm assuming none, since it would be far more effective and pragmatic to just switch characters. Kind of like a round hole with a square peg - you can force it, but why bother when you have a round peg in your other hand?

Here's a time machine trip for you: the player who learned their chosen champion the best won the match; the player who knew the character the best earned the privilege of doing the most impressive moves and inspired the newbs; and some one who wasn't a newb could overcome a match against a higher tiered character by using GI when he/she deemed fit.

This is STILL the status quo. As I have said, skill will always trump raw damage.

i always figured the use, and victory, of more complex characters like Ivy to be something of a status symbol, as well as kicking ass with a reknowned 'weak' characters. But those days are behind us now with these balanced games. What does everyone feel about the freedom two players had of negotiating the level of handicap between players? Remember those days?

So basically, the days when the game was an unbalanced mess were better because if you won with any character, you were respected. Except for the fact that there are tons of people sick of the fact that Ivy consistently makes Top 3 at tournaments. And the fact that Rock never won a major. And that most low tiers that have placed are usually due to character ignorance on the part of their opponent - ask Omega, who has admitted as much before.

Also "those days" had shit like Nightmare 3(B) ~ SCH 2G and everyone played like they were John Cena with their 5 Moves of Doom.

Laconically, your fears seem baseless. SCV will be fine, don't worry.
 

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