Hate Speech: When Worlds Collide (Revisited)

There’s nothing in this world more loathsome and repugnant than a flip-flopper. As we are reminded in every national election cycle, true leaders never change their minds, and they’re never, ever wrong. And I, of course, am a true leader, so please keep that in mind this week as we take another look at the function and implications of online play.

While I do indeed stand by everything I’ve previously said on the subject, the shockingly decent netplay afforded us by SC5 definitely warrants a new round of consideration regarding what benefits it ultimately provides us, the limits of its usefulness, and how far it can take us in our development as players.


Legitimately Playable Netcode (and Other Signs of the Apocalypse)

As we all know, when space aliens came down from on high and taught the ancient Mayans about science, mathematics, pyramid building, and online fighting games, it was with the understanding that they would closely guard these secrets until the end of days. With the end times now upon us, however—it’s 2012, after all—we finally have access to online play in a 3D game that isn’t patently terrible. In fact, it’s quite good . . . deceptively so, at times. That being the case, let’s dive back into what online play is and is not.

In the interest of fairness, a rebuttal to the above point.
First and foremost, online play is still not actual SCV, despite the fact that it approximates the actual (read: offline) gameplay experience far more faithfully than its predecessor ever could. The distinctions are, of course, subtle, but they’re nonetheless important. A multitude of online “lag tactics” still exist. Certain lows become much more difficult to block on reaction, some setups which require precision timing to defeat become entirely more solid than in fact they are in offline play, and numerous other small yet significant discrepancies come into play.

Despite all that, however, SCV’s enhanced netcode does allow for a nontrivial degree of reaction-based play, and tactics that are effective offline will generally work online as well. This becomes truer for semi-local matches. While I’ve had cross-country connections that would characterize as pretty damn good, I’ve had matches with people in my part of Norcal that are positively phenomenal. Whether almost-as-good-as-offline or just unexpectedly good, given the circumstances, almost any match that isn’t absolutely crippled by lag spikes and disconnects can serve as a useful training tool because the fundamental psychological elements of SCV play now remain largely intact when translated into the online realm. This becomes even truer when players enter into a gentlemen’s agreement of sorts, endeavoring to play in a manner that stays as true as possible to the sort of offline play seen in tournaments.

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Neither Pyrrha nor Pyrrha Omega (above) will be spamming out 1A in this match!
Even when that isn’t the case—against someone hell-bent on laming you out with moves and setups of dubious offline legitimacy, let’s say—simply playing online in all sorts of matches definitely increases the number of characters and strategies to which you are exposed. This can be hugely beneficial to players whose regions lack representatives for popular characters. For example, it’s prohibitively unlikely that anyone will be winning a major tournament without going through at least a few Pyrrhas, Pyrrha Omegas, and Natsus, but what if nobody in your local scene plays those characters? SCV’s improved netcode allows us to seek out those characters online and actually begin getting a rudimentary sense of what their moves look like, what their general playstyle might be, and how to counter those things. While imperfect, it’s a hell of a lot better than going in totally blind, and we would be fools not to make use of that.

The Pitfalls

So we’ve established that online SCV is comparatively amazing. What’s more, the gruesomely terrible online play we had in SCIV was still enough to give rise to mutant freaks like Woahhzz. Taken together, then, shouldn’t this new online play just be taken as perfectly legitimate?

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Of course not.

SCV online is incredibly useful for the reasons I’ve outlined above, and it’s enjoyable, too, to the point that I find myself playing quite a bit of it without ever getting so angry that I want to murder whoever thought it’d be a good idea to run games that require 1/60th of a second timing over a DSL connection that was already behind the curve in 1998. Despite that, there’s still a level of engagement and complexity that only instantaneous offline play can really provide. Just as importantly, though, there are certain elements already rising within the “online SCV culture” that we should guard against, lest they drastically interfere with our ability to become better players.

Of those elements, perhaps the most prominent comes from the game’s benignly cruel insistence on keeping track of all one’s wins and losses. While this is useful information to have, in a sense, it’s also somewhat dangerous in that it confers a significance to what should essentially be casual matches that frankly isn’t deserved. Hell, I catch myself getting entirely too worked up about these things from time to time, too. Just recently I played a ranked match against a player whose connection began fluctuating wildly from five bars to one, and back again. This shifting, pausing, stopping, and starting nearly destroyed my fragile little mind, and in the end I lost to silly stuff, dropping my overall win ratio to 93%. I was livid for almost three seconds, which was an eternity, given the circumstances, but that’s the sort of wildly irrational response that this level of stat-tracking elicits.

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Numbers never lie.
If any of us, myself most certainly included, make the mistake of lending too much credence to these sorts of numbers, we run the quite real risk of failing to push ourselves. If every win and loss is tracked forever, then every win and loss somehow matters, effectively erasing the concept of casual play. Unfortunately, casual play is absolutely essential to improvement. Without a no-stakes environment, it’s impossible to test out new characters, try new things, and so on, all of which is the key to getting the most out of online play. The only solution to this is to really embrace the notion that online play, while certainly good enough to help us improve, remains subordinate to offline play. Also, and more importantly, all online play is by definition casual play. This mindset is necessary in order to avoid both picking up online habits that will get you killed offline, and also as a general means to learn and improve.


Taking Your Beatings

As frustrating as it is to lose, particularly when the game remembers every mistake you make for the rest of eternity, losing remains the single most effective way to become a better player, and this is true both online and offline. In fact, the best potential upside of SCV’s online play is that it affords everyone the opportunity to go out and lose to new people and new characters in varied and intriguing ways.

During the first couple of months of both SCIII and SCIV, for example, I was beaten mercilessly, often by people who I was used to dispatching with relative ease. That’s simply the nature of the beast; a new game means an extended period of learning and adjustment. Luckily for us, however, we finally have a game wherein the online component is solid enough to allow us to take meaningful losses, reflect on them, and ultimately get mo’ better, mo’ faster. By keeping the relative value of online play in perspective and remaining steadfastly unafraid to get totally shined up on occasion, all of us can speed up the learning process and have a great deal of fun in the process.

Homework:

Tell me about your online experiences thus far. Are you finding it as potentially beneficial as I am, or is it already devolving into a cesspool of lag tactics and other garbage? What are the pros and cons?
Also, find some faux pro online and send him to 8wr. I’ve managed to get a few people against whom I’ve fought to come check out the community here—online play is an excellent way to add new blood to our community.

Finally, grab me on psn and help me wring all traces of respectability out of my win/loss record: bh8ffs

@Original_Hater
 
Who really cares about the record? Its just a number. I'm way more upset about the fact that I have to wait to play again than the extra tally on my loss total.
 
In my 1st match online I was so shocked that I was able to block lows/break throws on reaction that I lost said match due to being all O_O over the netcode. On my 2nd day of play, I went into the US lobbies to see if the netcode would cope and managed to play for about an hour with practically no laggy matches. Damn, this thing is good.
 
I played a matho online yesterday for the first time (just got the game), I played with a French dude, my PS3 was connected via wi-fi and I was downloading some stuff at the same time on my PC - zero lag. I was really impressed.
 

I actually don't think it's you. Every time I'm in a room with uberl33t I get random freezes and I have no friggin clue why. =/
I reset my ps3 but couldn't get a cool kid invite back.

Edit: Add me and let's battle soon! I'll give you plenty more sweet screenshots.
 
This games online is so great compared to IV. I dont even think the lag lows still exist. I never had much problem with them last game and in this game they have become second nature to guard or even just guard. Speaking of which the timing online is good enough that I can still just guards CE's. IMO thats as good as its going to get. Only bad part is a lot of games drop for no reason.
 
Omg wow online is getting complained about still?! True enough it's not as good as offline but....damn seriously?! I'm able to block i30 lows on reaction now on a 4 bar and break throws. Anything ive gotten hit by so far is my own damn fault. I love this net code, namco did amazing with the online experience this time around!

Only thing that I've seen so far is that it's alittle harder to punish, but whiff punish is so easy on this game it's hard not too miss it.

I dunno, maybe i'm reading this post wrong.
 
Thanks again, Hates. Once again you’ve given us an outlet to spew forth our muculent creative ideas. My experience in the past was typically fighting against the same (decent) players in extended player matches. This is the preferred way of learning character matchups, but what online ranked has provided recently is a wide array of chaos that I haven’t gotten to experience before. Much of my time is learning a generic way of fighting that works against a large pool of players. Since the match is only to 3 wins it really forces me to adapt quickly or gtfo. It’s an integral part of the learning process, but definitely not the whole picture. In fact, if this is the only way people train, you can bet they’ll grow complacent with their gimmicks and think that they are actually good.

As for win/loss ratio: it doesn’t mean much if disconnects don’t count as losses. I imagine they don’t count because NB realizes the instability of their online system. However, I’m still a stat whore. You’ll see me from time to time dividing my post-to-like-ratio to determine my forum success, and blindly in the past I considered that as part of my gaming experience. The win loss ratio shows our skill for online ranked while sitting in the comfort of our own home. It doesn’t determine your level of success while some announcer blasts his megaphone in your ear or how you handle a searing comment from your opponent right before a tournament match starts.
 
I am extremely happy with the online experience. I'm slowly but surely improving with each match I play online. Hanging out in the 24/7 stream is especially helpful, even as just a spectator. For example, after someone there advised me to use Leixia's WS bBE more often, I practiced it for a bit and then got a few WS bBE B+K CE combos off in actual online matches. It felt better than winning.
 
Ranked is fun when you can find players. Asian matches are tough to find when you are stuck in the middle of nowhere and people stop playing you when they die to mind-games.

Sometimes lag can be a problem, had this disconnection between me and a JP player while I was getting pwned by his Ivy and he thought I pulled, and I thought he pulled because of the lag. Had an ugly message sent to me, to which I replied quite civilly.

Shit happens, but as I stand by what I said in the ranked matches thread, if I lose so be it. I met many scrubs and decent and even good players, and it has been very interesting to learn even more about my character and others and what different play-styles and strategies they have.

Ultimately though I am in agreement - offline play is still the best. But for those who might have to travel far or not have the time to do so, online ranked/player/Colosseo is a great replacement, but not the best. So if anyone else likes ranked/player/Colosseo, losing or winning, then do your best, and try to make it to a tournament offline or to semi-regular sessions offline. I guarantee you it will be worth it once in a while. Cheers.
 
I can relate an experience from yesterday with the "too much credence numbers", and that wasn't even in a ranked match (nor was the reaction by me). My friend and I were practicing and playing for fun in player match. I haven't lost once against him during that session, and then a guy joins in who was able to beat me (though it was a very close match). Because he was able to break my killstreak, seeing as how I didn't lose once, he started bragging about it and calling my friend "noob".

Once or twice is fine (since we are both newbies, him especially since he hasn't played SC3 and SC4), but he kept on with it with a "too familiar" tone. He also started to brag that he's been a player since the first SC. So when my turn came back, I picked my strongest character (that I feel) and destroyed him 3 rounds straight. He was a bit in disbelief and tried finding excuses.

All is to say that even in player matches, some people take those number too much into account. Even so, so far my online experience is pretty nice. I've met some other newbies which we both added each other so we can train together from time to time. I've yet to play a lot of offline VS player games though, which I will soon enough.

EDIT: I forgot to add that whenever I have some connections issue, in SCV it usually just stops the match, while in SCIV, it recovers more often. This is very strange to me so far, but the overall online experience is WAY better than the last game (I've played against 1 bar and even zero bar; it was more playable than 2-3 bars from SCIV).
 
My first measure of the online experience in fighting game, is: Is it fun?

By this first measure SC5 succeeds amazingly. The player matches are the most fun, simply checking out all of the crazy customizations, reading all the crazy stuff that gets said in the the new chat feature, and that split screen where you can see who's next and check out their license is simple great to me. It gives you a much greater connection to people that are in most instances strangers. Great Lobby.


I 'm very satisfied that Namco added stats tracking for all features of the game, the only place they kind-a dropped the ball is in VS. mode. Since there is no real separate license for player 2, its hard to keep track with player vs player, player1 vs CPU as opposed to player2 or player3 vs cpu etc. Stats give you a sense of progress win or lose.. I like to know whether I've passed the 5000 matches played mark regardless of what the win/loss ratio is. I hate to post this old cliche but it is as true or more true now than ever. Its not whether you win or lose its how you play the game. Are you getting the most out of your character? Are you pulling off the moves in a match that you pull off in practice that you think look so awesome? Did you actually employ the strategy that you wanted to during the match.? If the answer to those questions is yes, then it really doesn't matter whether you win or lose, you've accomplished what you set out to accomplish. There will always be someone that you simply cannot beat. The important thing is that you represented your character and your skill to the way you wanted to. Sometimes we are simply out matched. There is no shame in losing, only if losing is handled shamefully. Which causes me to praise Namco for the replay feature! THANK YOU Project Soul THANK YOU Namco for the replay.
Now, I can look back at the matches that I lost or won, and appreciate what I did right, and see what I did wrong(if I did anything wrong). Again, sometimes you don't make any mistakes, it just happens that you run into a superior player (and there's always a superior player). The replay feature allows me to see if I pulled off the moves I wanted to, If I executed the strategy that I had in mind, and if not what happened. Did I represent my character well during the fight? Did I employ what I know about the game well? Once the emotion of the match is over, the replay tells the true story. Normally at the 5000 game mark you are totally able to execute your plan, whatever is (although you still might lose).


The Ranking system E5-E1, D5-D1, combined with the STATS gives you a true picture of who you are really up against. For example a player may have a rank of
say E4, but you look at his stats and he has played 1000 matches offline, 500+ matches in player mode, 100+ matches in Vs mode, and rarely plays ranked matches. Then you know that E4 really does not reflect what you're up against. So Keeping all the Stats (from every mode) is Great and when combined with the ranking system, you truly know whether you are playing somebody at your relative level or not. You also can tell if someone is just levelling up, but has not put in work elsewhere in the game. This is a massive improvement over SC IV online experience.

Having a lot of wins doesn't necessarily mean that you're that good, and having a lot of losses doesn't necessarily meant that you're that bad. The real questions are,
Are you having fun? Are you executing the moves that you want to execute? Are you deploying the strategy you want to deploy? Are you representing your Character well? AFAIC the new netcode for SC5 allows me to do all of the above, within the skill level that I have. I am not prevented in any way by online netcode. Of course it is netcode and its not the same a playing live, but is the next best thing to being there.
 
The online is great for improving in general and even more so when you start to play regularly with players of a similar skill level to your own.

I've also been very impressed with the Legendary Soul and Quick Play modes with regard to improvement. The CPU player in Legend mode will pretty much punish anything it can, so it's a good lesson learner. The 'A' class CPU opponents in Quick Play will also do the same.
 
yea the online record thing is pointless cause in the long run it really doesnt matter.[/quote

Here are some reason why the stats (License) Matter:


Looking At your Opponent (in the long run after 4-6 months with the game)

1) They give you an idea where the opponent spends most of the effort

2) What their rank is (C1, E4,B3,etc) vs How many battles they've actually fought
against Humans or against CPU in other words do their rank match the number
of games played.

3) between 0 and 500 games played (possibly noob), between ( 500, 1500) a little more than a casual player, between (1500,2500) serious-intermediate player,
between (2500, 5000), serious-approaching advanced payer, over 5000 games played (advanced players). If you run into someone with over 2000 games played, regardless of their win/loss ratio, you're in for a fight, over 5000 games played,
you could be in for a but kicking.

4) You can find out who their Main is LOL

5) You can find out if you both like to play similar modes of the game

Looking At yourself

1) What your overall progress in the game is as far as colleting items and
weapons

2) You can see what you percentage distrubtion in terms of which characters you
use the most often in ranked order.

3) you can see how many W/L you have online and in which modes you have them

4) You can see how many W/L you have off line and in which modes you have
them

5) You can see the number of VS games played

6) You can see how much time your spending on the game vs how much
time your opponent is spending on the game.

You can look at your W/L ratios and compare them with other people who have put about the same amount of time, in the same modes, with the about the same number of fights as you have to see if you're average, below average, above average, etc.

Getting to 10,000 matches played Win or Lose, is something of a Fighting game Milestone. Without Statistics you might think you're there, when you're really not LOL.

The number of games played, really is important. Here's why, even if you lose most of the time, you're still learning. Its literally impossible not to learn if you play enough games. For example, if you only play 20 or 30 times and you lose most of those matches you haven't played enough to be forced to learn from your mistakes, you could still be winning the games that you do win out of luck. But once you've played a few 100 matches, now you see what you're mistakes are, especially if you're playing different people online. Once you cross the 300 game mark you will start to self correct automatically, even without thinking about it. Once you've crossed 500 games you're going to improve your overall game little by little even if you try not to. Just the volume of games, diversity of matches and people (the human brain will force you to learn) LOL. Many players don't pay serious attention to training mode and movelists until they crossed the 1500 games played (win or lose) , at that point there is a consious effort to improve technique, and expand skill set.

Yea dude, W/L stats matter online or offline. Where players spend most of their matches says a lot about the disposition of that player. These stats can be used to your advantage if you really want to match up against the right ppl.

AFAIC the more stats Namco gives us the better. I'd like to know numbers/percentages of successfule BE,CE,GI, Throws vs Throw/escapes, numbers of perfects, Numbers of Players I've played above my rank, and beneath my rank, as well as rank the moves that I use in terms of frequency. We all spam more than we think we do LOL. Not everyone cares about this level of statistcal detail, but for many this would be indispensible.


Project Soul Bring on the Stats online and offline!
 
Lag tactics exist, but I feel like playing against them is almost like training with ankle weights. Sure, it's gonna fuck up your stride, but it's still got benefits where people choose to do it.

Personally I think it's a great place to learn your matchups. Nothing is an unpredictable as an online player with no concept of how to play, so you get to see a lot of situations you don't normally. This will give you a basis for testing matchup stuff people don't normally use if you apply a simple modifier. If the random does something you wouldn't expect into something bad, you can say to yourself "What would happen if he did the random into something that makes sense" then use logic and probably get an assist from the frame data to actually come up with a good sense of how the situation works and what your options are to deal with it.

Even after that you still need to practice pushing buttons properly. There are very few of us who can just say I'm just gonna do this, there every fucking time. Then actually do it. It takes practice to apply what you know, and online is a great place to do that. Even if the results don't mirror the results of what would happen in offline, if you train yourself towards that end and accept that online win/loss means nothing, the platform begins to really shine as a way to level up your play.

Then there were lag abuse lows, now I'm the first person to get salty when I lose to nightmare on 3 bars doing 1A every other move. But after playing online and dealing with things like Natsu Bomb spammers, the last time I played a natsu offline it felt like the bombs were moving in slow motion. I actually ate one because I blocked so early I wanted to push buttons too quickly after blocking and the move hadn't hit yet. I have a feeling that even losing to lagtastic nightmare like that will improve your reactions and while moves like that and bombs are slow enough to make you think you don't need help blocking them. What's going to happen when they start using moves you have trouble reacting to?

I love the netcode in this game, thank you Namco
 

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