Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

Hudathan said:
Raph is greater than the sum of his parts.
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Truth.

But, as I am playing Raph, I find that one of his greater strengths isnt't raw damage, natural combo-ability, but the fact that he wears down guard so consistently. With his unrelenting poke game, I find my opponents guard meter in the yellow/red multiple times in a match. However I was wondering, when you find yourself in the situation that you have broken the opponents guard, what is the best combo to do assuming you have 50%meter and yard not by a wall?
 
Cerrus said:
I was wondering, when you find yourself in the situation that you have broken the opponents guard, what is the best combo to do assuming you have 50%meter and yard not by a wall?
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4B prepa~Bb(BE) could be the best.
If the opponent is against the stage border, 66K ring out.
If you are against the stage border, 66A+B BT B+K, ring out.
 
I hate guard break, I think they should take it out :-p

I've been wondering what the best options are myself, and is something I want to check out. Does anyone know how long the break lasts?
 
I would not be surprised if this value is variable again. Ie: a GB off a 3(B) you can easily go into SEB. A burst off 66(B) however, I cannot manage to SEB in time.
 
WuHT said:
I would not be surprised if this value is variable again. Ie: a GB off a 3(B) you can easily go into SEB. A burst off 66(B) however, I cannot manage to SEB in time.
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On the topic of SE B, what do you find is the best set up to get yourself into prep, then use SE, without having them just sidestep the moment they see SE?

Also, if you land a SE B and get the stun, is 4b prep BB BE the best thing to follow up with?
 
Cerrus said:
On the topic of SE B, what do you find is the best set up to get yourself into prep, then use SE, without having them just sidestep the moment they see SE?
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There no safe way to enter SE.
Even on hit, with 3(B) prepa~SE A, and 4(B) prepa~SE A, i can eat a i20 move.

You must use it rarely in order to surprise them.
I'm not even playing to Paris level, and i got a friend who react immediatly with a CE if i throw out a SE...
Currently, i can't use SE B against him. I can't imagine to even being able to hit with it.
Last time i've done it, it was with a "3(B) prepa~4 (whiff) SE B" which completely throw him out of guard.
So i use SE A sporadically, in order to make him guard SE B if i use it when i feel lucky...

I think SE is slow because we must make them hesitate to use vertical attacks with prepa~4, and go for an evade punish. But it's so freaking hard when they are waiting for it...
I even forget i could use it when a play against strong players.
But feel free to spam it against noobs.

Cerrus said:
Also, if you land a SE B and get the stun, is 4b prep BB BE the best thing to follow up with?
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SE B, 66(B) prepa~A+B =86 dmg
SE B, 3(B) prepa~Bb(BE) = 95 dmg (1 BE)
SE B, CE = 96 dmg (1 CE)

with a wall
SE B, 1B W!, A+BA, 66A+B = 100 dmg
 
I love prep. Prep K being steppable is sad, but it's perfect. Perfect level of sad.

WuHT said:
I would not be surprised if this value is variable again. Ie: a GB off a 3(B) you can easily go into SEB. A burst off 66(B) however, I cannot manage to SEB in time.
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Of course it's variable. The given guard stun in normal conditions is replaced with a guard crush animation. That's constant but the setup is variable. I ask you, though, how could it be otherwise?

You, Raphael, are still finishing the 3(B) or 66(B) animation. The unintuitive part is that moves with lesser guard stun will gain more relative advantage than moves (like 66b) with more stun. And that actual stun of the move is obscured, reading just frames, by the unknown value for the recovery of the attack.
How exactly could it be otherwise? Cancel your attack? Stuff extra frames into guard lag on the faster moves to make them all the same frames as the slowest?

I pickin' on you 'bout frames from before but I don't have a problem with you. Just wondering if you have any idea for mathematical alternatives to what's there.
 
So despite all the negativity some pages earlier in this thread, I'm considering maining Raph. I haven't played an SC game since SC2, and as far as other fighting games go, I mained Lee in tekken 6 - so I'm not adverse to putting in a little more effort to get results as long as the tools are there.

Does Raph have what he needs to be competitive? I mean, I understand he lacks step control, but he seems to have moves that track to particular sides at varying distances. I just want to make sure I'm not getting myself into something Aeon-tier here before I dump a bunch of time into learning this character.

As additional questions, so that I don't keep making scrubby plays (I'm beating all my friends, but I'm absolutely making mistakes, and want to improve; unfortunately, I can't get up to my local scene at Xanadu for a bit because I have night class on Wednesdays):

When do you guys typically use 33_99B? I've been using it after conditioning opponents to block 22_88B at appropriate distances, but it still seems risky at -16 on block, especially since it's also steppable (obviously I'm not going to throw it out if I anticipate step, but it's still a relatively slow move nonetheless).

And is it just me, or do all of his brave edges except for 6Bb(BE) and the prep variant (outside of a wall situation) seem useless? Should I just be spending meter on GI's in later rounds (assuming that I have ample meter for the 6Bb(BE)?
If so, typically what followup should be done from the GI?

Thanks in advance for all the help -- these forums seem awesome!
 
Mandritti said:
That's constant but the setup is variable. I ask you, though, how could it be otherwise?
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Jeezes christ thats the one point you choose to pick on. No shit its more than likely that its the same situation as jG, in that it doesn't reset you and your opponent to set animation. Even if only one character goes into a set animation after an effect (like raph's prep4 aGI) you don't get the same window for punishment.

I said "...I wouldn't be surprised...", but it would be unreasonable for someone to assume that I am postulating another situation.
 
It was 4Am and i couldn't sleep, so i've done some test in training about Guard burst and Shadow Evade, since here and in the combo post, people are talking about that.

To begin with, i calculated the time it take to do a Shadow Evade.

[Edit](16/02/2012)
I set the dummy on "3B prep~SE A" and let it hit me.
I tried different move and clashed with 1A (i20).
15 frames hitsun + 20 frames startup = 35 frames.
SE A is 15 Frames.
35 - 15 = 20 Frames.
So we must stay during 20 Frames in Shadow Evade before we can launch a move.
(10 frames too long to be decent with Hit advantage and use it offensively...)
So in reality, SE A is i35, SE B is i39, and SE K is i41.
[/edit]

After that, i tested all the guard burst moves, and tried to determine what's the slowest follow-up possible after a guard break ( and if 22B is possible ).

i32 punish and 22B OK :
4B
6BBB
3B
1B
6K
A+B (The last A can't guard break, but each hit of A+B can)
6B+K
FC 3B
Jump B
Jump K
66A
22B
66A+B
66B+K
prep~BBB
SE B
prep~k(BE) (Only the last High Kick can guard break)

i29 punish and 22B OK :
66B
44B

i26 punish and NO 22B :
prep~A+B

i25 punish and NO 22B :
236B
6Bb(BE) / prep~Bb(BE)
CE

i13 punish and NO 22B :
33k(BE)


I have done the same with stance transition moves.
Slowest punish are :
3(B) = SE K (i41)
4(B) = SE K (i41)
66(B) = SE A (i35)


Ha... It will be 8 AM soon. Take me some times. :p

I hope it will help people choose their best option when a guard break happen !
 
Guts said:
When do you guys typically use 33_99B? I've been using it after conditioning opponents to block 22_88B at appropriate distances, but it still seems risky at -16 on block, especially since it's also steppable (obviously I'm not going to throw it out if I anticipate step, but it's still a relatively slow move nonetheless).
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its not risky because of misalign AND range....
that is the main source of raph damage against good players you should use that every time you can...considering also how linear the move is....


Back to SE, it seems that the only way to use it (no catching people off guard won t work if opponent is decent and has a 20-25 frames window and an i13 move) is after 66B
stopping the string or entering prep.

Unfortunately an i13< TC will probably punish anyway....


@JodorowskyVIII i think you switched frames for SEA and SEB
 
ups my fault damn scIV @_@

Back to the questions....now that we know preps are quite back excluding if used as punishers...
Do you think we will go back to old poke and punish style or is there a better strategy......

Necroform works well against few steppable strings (ex. second hit of ezio 66BB to tell one) so i wonder often i would step for certain average damage rather than VE for the 50% mixup unless i have 150% bar to threaten 33KBE,CE vs backthrow.

prep 4 is still unusable to me :| so if i miss a punishment i am toast considering the lack of mids.

Phyrritia/patsuka/Phyrrandra matchups seems almost unwinnable given this data, the only thing i found is against the latter that 8A+B GI their 2K (i think the command is B+K its the same abused followup from scIV) followup that TS and TJ but not much else.


Did you ever have any problem against them? how you actually beat them?
22B will never connect,
22A and AA are a huge risk being high and exactly what they expect....



P.S: i'll remember also that to all those saying to not playing raphael to win (it doesn t even make sense ._.) that according to our patch wishlist 2.0 raphael is good as it is.
If you think tha very well otherwise, remember to post your wishes.
 
I've played the Phyrra matchup a lot and find that 2A and 8A+B and 4A+B are super useful. Prep is terrible against here (if they know how bad it is) so try to stay away unless it is guaranteed off of something. You'll probably need to save your meter for GI (cause guard break is so fucking lame) so mostly just poke and CH with 1K or 4B or 6B. You can't punish them for shit, so just keep your defense up and poke them to death and you can get some wins.
 
Guts said:
When do you guys typically use 33_99B? I've been using it after conditioning opponents to block 22_88B at appropriate distances, but it still seems risky at -16 on block, especially since it's also steppable (obviously I'm not going to throw it out if I anticipate step, but it's still a relatively slow move nonetheless).

And is it just me, or do all of his brave edges except for 6Bb(BE) and the prep variant (outside of a wall situation) seem useless? Should I just be spending meter on GI's in later rounds (assuming that I have ample meter for the 6Bb(BE)?
If so, typically what followup should be done from the GI?

Thanks in advance for all the help -- these forums seem awesome!
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I go for 33B after far knockdowns like a B grab, then mixup with mids from there. But it could be used to make people duck/stop moving at range, if you've conditioned them to not run up in your face.

As for his other EX moves, I don't think Prep K is a great move, but 33k EX has some uses. +8 on block, strong damage if they duck, one of his few front RO moves, etc. There's an angle where A and B grab will both ring out, since Raph's A grab rings out to his right from a decent distance. That's one way to scare them into ducking at the ring edge.

Control step with your movement and timing, not just your moves. Stepping does hurt him, but it can't be done mindlessly to automatically beat a smart Raph.
 
I wanted to know...
Are you all actively doing Ranked match online ? (And what is your rank in this case)
Or are you more Freeplay adepts (Colisseo, Matchmaking, offline sessions,...) ?

Where do you feel is the best place to progress with Raphaël ?
Do you prefer a little pression in ranked which force you to do less errors, or a long session with multiple battles where you can become more daring ?
 
I play the same people who've fought my Raph for years in enough games where they start checking me on anything but my best options for each situation.
 
If only I had more time for myself playing ranked matches (currently 2W 0L lol), I prefer multiple battles with good players I know, and I have a feeling that 90% of the people I will play in ranked won't even know anti-raph, or block properly (I'll be testing them with stuff like AB, A+B,A and other sorts, and keep repeating til they learn to duck...).

I won't dive in online too much as I have an offline buddy anyway who owns me for free with alpha pat...for now...

If you wanna progress, learn to take your beatings against better players, practice (offline), know your character as well and the match up I suppose


AZ
 
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