BlackDragon37
[12] Conqueror
damn-U-Suck
Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Bullseyeboy277
- Start date
- Status
Ring
Lay still now
Damage buff is not always the answer. They should start with tweaking frames and fixing whiff issues of some characters.
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
@ring,
Frames is another way to do it. Do you have any suggestions?
Frames is another way to do it. Do you have any suggestions?
Like... SIEGFRIED
page
[11] Champion
Siegfried 22a should be plus on block.
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
I thought the move is pretty good as it is, but that's just me.
So I was bored and checked what the official gameguide says about tiers.
It rates every fighter based on 11 categories (+12th category difficulty) from 1 to 10.
I went ahead and just added those 11 ratings per character to see if it matches up with the tier lists floating around here on 8wayrun.
Its arguable if all the categories are equally important to determine the tier list but Ill just go ahead and pretent they are. Its all a matter of personal preference and playstyle anyway.
First I thought I should just substract the difficulty rating from the overall rating, but for one I dont agree with those ratings in the first place and secondly it doesnt neccessarily hinder the strenght of a character, it just means you gotta learn more before you use its potential.
Another thing: it should be common knowledge so far that the futurepress guide is incredible. The guys that wrote it put more time into research than anyone else and they are also probably the only guys that extensively tested ALL characters - they actually have a basis to compare the character to one and other unlike...well everyone of us.
Long story short, the tierlist:
A. Natsu, Omega, Algol
B. Alpha, Cervi, Pat, Xiba, Ivy, Yoshi
C. Asta, Voldo, Hilde, DJ, Maxi, Mitsu, Nightmare, Raph
D. Tira, Aeon, Pyrrha, Leixia
E. Zwei, Viola, E.z., Siggi
So yeah, Natsu by far the highest rating, I actually thought about putting her in S. Thing is no matter how you spin around her weaknesses, the damage she gets of basically everything is insane, her wakeup game is ridic thanks to bombs, fastest AA in the game, incredible mixups and and and...
Omega as 2nd suprises me somewhat, but I guess shes like pyrrha with more dmg out of almost everything. Still, didnt expect #2 spot as outcome.
Algol third is justified I guess. He is above avg. in everything and his spacing/controlling of the ring is by far unmatched. A good algol basically cant get ringed out which in itself is an insanely good trait to have.
Yoshi is alot highter than people usually rate him, but theres no doubt that his mixups and oki is among the best.
DJ only in C which actually reflects my opinion. His punishing and close-range pressure is godlike, but he does have flaws that weight in alot. Literally shortest range in the game and his 2 best tools both get owned by simple ducking isnt something you can easily ignore.
Aeon not being in the lowest tier is something I didnt expect tbh as I started out with him and quickly dropped him. Then again I approached him in the wrong way I guess. For success its advised to play him as a spacer/whiffpunisher with 66K in case someone gets too close. Overall ringout, damage, guardburst, oki and lowgame not to be underestimated.
E. Tier is in harmony with the communities oppinion Id dare say. Zwei is just bad for what he is supposed to be - a rushdown/mixup character. Viola just has absolutely NO damage, even her CE only extends comboes. E.z. has to fish for CH 24/7 which is easily counterable by just being patient. Siggi is just too unsafe and his attacks randomly whiff even though they visually connect - needs a fix.
It rates every fighter based on 11 categories (+12th category difficulty) from 1 to 10.
I went ahead and just added those 11 ratings per character to see if it matches up with the tier lists floating around here on 8wayrun.
Its arguable if all the categories are equally important to determine the tier list but Ill just go ahead and pretent they are. Its all a matter of personal preference and playstyle anyway.
First I thought I should just substract the difficulty rating from the overall rating, but for one I dont agree with those ratings in the first place and secondly it doesnt neccessarily hinder the strenght of a character, it just means you gotta learn more before you use its potential.
Another thing: it should be common knowledge so far that the futurepress guide is incredible. The guys that wrote it put more time into research than anyone else and they are also probably the only guys that extensively tested ALL characters - they actually have a basis to compare the character to one and other unlike...well everyone of us.
Long story short, the tierlist:
A. Natsu, Omega, Algol
B. Alpha, Cervi, Pat, Xiba, Ivy, Yoshi
C. Asta, Voldo, Hilde, DJ, Maxi, Mitsu, Nightmare, Raph
D. Tira, Aeon, Pyrrha, Leixia
E. Zwei, Viola, E.z., Siggi
So yeah, Natsu by far the highest rating, I actually thought about putting her in S. Thing is no matter how you spin around her weaknesses, the damage she gets of basically everything is insane, her wakeup game is ridic thanks to bombs, fastest AA in the game, incredible mixups and and and...
Omega as 2nd suprises me somewhat, but I guess shes like pyrrha with more dmg out of almost everything. Still, didnt expect #2 spot as outcome.
Algol third is justified I guess. He is above avg. in everything and his spacing/controlling of the ring is by far unmatched. A good algol basically cant get ringed out which in itself is an insanely good trait to have.
Yoshi is alot highter than people usually rate him, but theres no doubt that his mixups and oki is among the best.
DJ only in C which actually reflects my opinion. His punishing and close-range pressure is godlike, but he does have flaws that weight in alot. Literally shortest range in the game and his 2 best tools both get owned by simple ducking isnt something you can easily ignore.
Aeon not being in the lowest tier is something I didnt expect tbh as I started out with him and quickly dropped him. Then again I approached him in the wrong way I guess. For success its advised to play him as a spacer/whiffpunisher with 66K in case someone gets too close. Overall ringout, damage, guardburst, oki and lowgame not to be underestimated.
E. Tier is in harmony with the communities oppinion Id dare say. Zwei is just bad for what he is supposed to be - a rushdown/mixup character. Viola just has absolutely NO damage, even her CE only extends comboes. E.z. has to fish for CH 24/7 which is easily counterable by just being patient. Siggi is just too unsafe and his attacks randomly whiff even though they visually connect - needs a fix.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Do you have the actual numbers for the power ratings though ?
Ring
Lay still now
Personally I don't see why Omega is so high in the tier lists. She's basically a worse version of SC4 Sophitia (lower overall damage, more unsafe, worse lows and anti steps) Dagotth is the only person left that can convince me otherwise.
Also Ivy is mid tier.
Also Ivy is mid tier.
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
I have no idea where the hell Siegfried is.
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
E tier clearly.
y u so bad sieg get ur dmg buffed homie
y u so bad sieg get ur dmg buffed homie
For the categories themselves or overall, i.e the added numbers? If the latter, I can include them in my post if you want to.
@Ring: Well, shes rated way above avg. in every category and if Im not mistaken the only fighter in the cast rated with 10/10 for punishment which I definatly agree on. 65 dmg to your face for moves some characters cant even punish in the first place? Thats hella good.
About Ivy: She just seems well rounded, range, punishment, movement is all good. And her throw game and the midgames that it creates arent to be underestimated. But thats just my thought on how she ended up that high.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
I mostly agree but i think aeon needs more safety rather than damage, i think his damage is actually not bad but his frames need to be better.
Viola needs more damage thats for sure but to be honest i think she has some hidden potential we might not be aware of. So they should be careful on how much they buff her damage, i smell with a decent damage output someone could brake her.
Towards nerfing the damage of oprah i am not sure because it is actually the only advantage she has over pyrrha (but pyrrha is also pretty nuts to begin with, though).
Mandy
Yes, a guy.
Completely agree. Omega is much more unsafe compared to Pyrrha, has less (read: no) mix-ups, worthless BE. Pretty much all she can do is DNS B, AA, BB (exaggerating here). Match-up is pretty simple, you wiff, you eat DNS B.
Ivy is more underplayed than anything; by no means do I consider her to be the best character in the game, but definitely not the worst, so mid-tier does sound appropriate.
Ring
Lay still now
DNS B is also -14 punishable. It has pushback but some characters can still punish it.
As for Ivy,she has some great pokes, decent punishment but everything else is average or weak. She has one of the lowest damage in the game, worst CE in the game, her throw game is only "ok", her ranged moves all deal stupidly small damage (less than 30) and most are stepable and/or ridiculously punishable on block (talk about risk/reward) , she also has no good step killers.
She not trash but she's not that good.
Also about Ivy's CE (and Asta's too)
I believe the idea of having unbreakable throw CE's is stupid. It's hard to balance them properly. Make them too fast and they will become completely broken, make them too slow and they will become useless.
I think Ivy's CE is by far the worst in the game because it has very noticeable startup (glowing hand) and small reach which is why it's not even guaranteed after a GI 50% of time. On top of that, both Asta's and Ivy's CE can be avoided if your character has a move with TC from frame 1 (you can buffer it during the animation freeze and it will always avoid the CE) It needs to be patched asap.
I agree that Omega is good, it's just that I feel there are better and more dangerous characters than her (Alpha, Algo, maybe Cervy) It's also strange that she's the only one rated with 10/10 for punishment since Alpha Patroklos is better at this than Omega.
As for Ivy,she has some great pokes, decent punishment but everything else is average or weak. She has one of the lowest damage in the game, worst CE in the game, her throw game is only "ok", her ranged moves all deal stupidly small damage (less than 30) and most are stepable and/or ridiculously punishable on block (talk about risk/reward) , she also has no good step killers.
She not trash but she's not that good.
Also about Ivy's CE (and Asta's too)
I believe the idea of having unbreakable throw CE's is stupid. It's hard to balance them properly. Make them too fast and they will become completely broken, make them too slow and they will become useless.
I think Ivy's CE is by far the worst in the game because it has very noticeable startup (glowing hand) and small reach which is why it's not even guaranteed after a GI 50% of time. On top of that, both Asta's and Ivy's CE can be avoided if your character has a move with TC from frame 1 (you can buffer it during the animation freeze and it will always avoid the CE) It needs to be patched asap.
Brahma
[09] Warrior
Aeon needs some frame tweaks and he'd be alright. As of now most of his stuff is unsafe and he can't really gain any momentum off of a hit.
Because JF Twister, JF Twister is a combo.
This means an Alpha player like me can take 71 dmg at -12. Nobody in this game even compares to that.
EastredDragon
[09] Warrior
They're not 'needed' per say, but we would like to see then. Sieg DEFINITELY needs a buff, because it didn't actually look like it was intended for him to do THAT little of damage. Hell, the quick fighters actually do more damage than him.
Signia
[13] Hero
Those who think Viola's damage output is low probably haven't played a good Viola, or they don't know about her combos. Or perhaps are using orbed Viola.
Her meterless bnb is 63 damage (3B AAB 2A+B 1A+B), that's respectable.
With another bar it's 80 damage (3B AAB 2A+B 2B+K(BE) 6 AAB 9K 2A+B), also respectable. All this from a -14 launcher, and she has plenty of opportunities to use this. She gets 3B-throw mixups all day from 6B+K pressure. 3B stuffs attempts to stop 6B+K pressure with attacks from disadvantage. She can 3B to whiff punish too obviously, and she can force whiffs by not calling the high ball and evading their duck-punish attempt. Fully charged 2A+B traps guarantee a 3B if they guard it. Oh yeah and it tech crouches.
Her 44A(BE) 33(B) ~bnb and 22B(BE) 1B 3B~bnb combos do tons of damage and can be extended with another bar.
There's also her 6B+K setups. With the wave of her hand, she can force some dangerous mixups. There's some crazy combos that I land every match that involve comboing into the 6B+K ball and linking an attack out of it. 6B+K 3A and 6B+K 6B both combo into 3B~bnb for 95+ damage with no meter. 6B+K 2A into throw attempt is guaranteed if you block the 2A. 6B+K makes every attack safe, and just about anything can be combo'd out of the hit, if timed right. 3B can be easily hit confirmed after seeing whether 6B or 3A hits. 6B+K 6B_3A_1K_AA_BB into BBB or AAB string mixups can create a strong pressure game on block, and the ball callback is fairly safe if ducked or stepped. They have to commit in order to get what little they can, and that can be baited by not finishing the string. The callback can also be cancelled with another 6B+K so you don't end up with the ball, but this leaves big opening in exchange for the chance to loop more 6B+K pressure.
Damage is NOT Viola's weakness. It's linearity. Up close, 3A, AA, 22A, and 44A (BE) are good enough for stopping step. However, at mid-long range she's limited to 66AAB string, where the 2nd and 3rd hits can be ducked, though just doing the first hit just to get inside is effective. Other than that, she has a big problem against careful spacing. She needs to get in order to do her damage and pressure, so careful spacing hurts her pretty bad. She has a whole lot of trouble against strong zoners, though new tech to improve her mid-long range game is still being developed.
I'd put her in B tier.
Her meterless bnb is 63 damage (3B AAB 2A+B 1A+B), that's respectable.
With another bar it's 80 damage (3B AAB 2A+B 2B+K(BE) 6 AAB 9K 2A+B), also respectable. All this from a -14 launcher, and she has plenty of opportunities to use this. She gets 3B-throw mixups all day from 6B+K pressure. 3B stuffs attempts to stop 6B+K pressure with attacks from disadvantage. She can 3B to whiff punish too obviously, and she can force whiffs by not calling the high ball and evading their duck-punish attempt. Fully charged 2A+B traps guarantee a 3B if they guard it. Oh yeah and it tech crouches.
Her 44A(BE) 33(B) ~bnb and 22B(BE) 1B 3B~bnb combos do tons of damage and can be extended with another bar.
There's also her 6B+K setups. With the wave of her hand, she can force some dangerous mixups. There's some crazy combos that I land every match that involve comboing into the 6B+K ball and linking an attack out of it. 6B+K 3A and 6B+K 6B both combo into 3B~bnb for 95+ damage with no meter. 6B+K 2A into throw attempt is guaranteed if you block the 2A. 6B+K makes every attack safe, and just about anything can be combo'd out of the hit, if timed right. 3B can be easily hit confirmed after seeing whether 6B or 3A hits. 6B+K 6B_3A_1K_AA_BB into BBB or AAB string mixups can create a strong pressure game on block, and the ball callback is fairly safe if ducked or stepped. They have to commit in order to get what little they can, and that can be baited by not finishing the string. The callback can also be cancelled with another 6B+K so you don't end up with the ball, but this leaves big opening in exchange for the chance to loop more 6B+K pressure.
Damage is NOT Viola's weakness. It's linearity. Up close, 3A, AA, 22A, and 44A (BE) are good enough for stopping step. However, at mid-long range she's limited to 66AAB string, where the 2nd and 3rd hits can be ducked, though just doing the first hit just to get inside is effective. Other than that, she has a big problem against careful spacing. She needs to get in order to do her damage and pressure, so careful spacing hurts her pretty bad. She has a whole lot of trouble against strong zoners, though new tech to improve her mid-long range game is still being developed.
I'd put her in B tier.
- Status