Balance Patch Discussion

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iGDR is not retardedly good. i17 launcher, cannot be buffered(so punishing is a bitch at tighter frames), doesn't tech jump despite the animation, -21 on block, just frame input only. while it's not difficult it isn't like pat or pyrrha's jf's where even if they screw up they still get the punish. if cerv screws up he GETS punished or worse could just ring himself out.
 
taffertier said:
JF twister
iGDR
Mitsu 4B
Double Nemesis Step B (pyrrha omega)
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Similar list to what I was thinking. Pat's 66B is there. iGDR is iffy, and details below:

sephalump said:
iGDR is not retardedly good. i17 launcher, cannot be buffered(so punishing is a bitch at tighter frames), doesn't tech jump despite the animation, -21 on block, just frame input only. while it's not difficult it isn't like pat or pyrrha's jf's where even if they screw up they still get the punish. if cerv screws up he GETS punished or worse could just ring himself out.
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I can't quite put my finger on which part of the pirate's 3B combos that make it so powerful (28+30+30 + landing damage with no damage mitigation?) and in an effort to just lower damage (without changing the safety) it seems like iGDR-in-combo damage should be addressed rather than 3B from what i've read in the cervantes thread. I think 80 damage is more than generous (maybe repeating myself) to follow a move with the properties of the pirate's 3B. I don't see many people in support of a lazy 5-10 damage nerf to 3B.
 
I'm actually one of the Cervantes players who wouldn't mind a slight damage nerf to regular iGDR(in combos too of course). I say slight because he still holds more risk than most the rest of the cast if he drops it. Having like 10 damage taken off the tornado swell version is all right by me too. I just don't want them to nerf regular iGDR too much to the point he's just better off doing easier combos. I mean all 3B, iGDR, iGDR has over 3B, iGDR, b2 is the tad bit of extra damage. The BT mix up here isn't as powerful as a lot of people think since they can just roll away from most his scary options.
 
There are plenty of moves that have a much more out of whack risk reward factor than JF Twister or iGDR. Pat's 66B is one of them. Isn't that a key factor of balance? Risk vs reward? One thing no seems to talk much about is the guaranteed damage after Guard Crush moves. Some of that is foolish.
 
I wanted to clarify I don't actually want a patch at all at this point. I think we should just be made to play the game for an extent of time. I'm only commenting on things A) I saw a post I severely disagree with B) I respect Wuht a lot so answered him.
 
Noregrets said:
Mitsu 4b is great but JF twister shuts down 90% of a character's movelist. Way more dominant than Mitsu 4b.
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Completely wrong. JF Twister is mostly used in combos and not as a punishing tool. 44B+K BE is used as a punishing tool though. Twister/JF Twister is used as a punishing tool for lows or mids that does not end up standing (exemple : Night's 22B).

It's kinda sad how much people don't know Alpha Patroklos gameplan or gameplay.

JF Twister just needs a damage nerf to balance combo damage, but it needs no additional nerf whatsoever.
People tend to think JFT = easy 236B:4 of Pyrrha or Omega or even Patroklos. It's really not that at all.
The imput is : 214~3a:B. Then you imput again 214~3a:B and you have around 2 frames to do so (if opponent tech left).

If someone punishes a move with JFT JFT he REALLY deserves it. Especially at top level, using JFT JFT is not often advised because of the difficulty of this particular combos. Besides missing the second JFT makes Alpha unsafe (something like -16) at wake up.

Oh well... I'll probably get ignored or bashed for posting this. I don't really care.
But please guys, think a little about theorical stuff vs practical stuff.
 
But there's piles of brainless combos that do over 90! Some maybe cost one meter or something but that's the trade off for the difference in the execution of the moves. Landing 3 iGDRs should give you 90 to 100 damage no less. Not many players even bother trying cause it's so easy to mess up. Many will waste a 4B BE, try for the 2nd iGDR and use B2. Virtually no players are busting out 3X iGDR combos with machine like precision. Missing an iGDR can be the end of the round.
 
3X iGDR isn't difficult(in my opinion at least). I don't choose to do it because that last iGDR has such a long recovery you're actually at disadvantage. Like Alpha can wake up CE you, at least I think I read that somewhere. I normally just do iGDR, iGDR, 2A+B into a RCC so I can take advantage of oki and follow them if they backroll.
Or if I'm SUPER lazy I'll do iGDR, b2, CE. I think it looks boss, I'm always sitting on a bunch of meter, and the damage isn't shabby.
 
If the damage of Mitsu's 4B would be reduced and perhaps the Guard damage reduced (again), then maybe it'll be less of an annoying "scrub" move.

Then again, scrubs complain of anything that's good/abusable, just JG/GI that move. You have the tools, some people are just lazy to use them until you learn to deal with the problem and adapt.

I've had people complain about my Algol because I do too much damage off a GI and Guard Burst. People gotta learn their stuff to learn 4B's weaknesses. It's biggest one is that it's susceptible advancing attacks (like Algol's 1B), you just have to make a read on your opponent. If you know you're at advantage and Mitsu isn't, chances are that they're gonna 4B you, which is when you should anticipate the attack, plan accordingly, make them pay for their mistakes.
 
sephalump said:
3X iGDR isn't difficult(in my opinion at least). I don't choose to do it because that last iGDR has such a long recovery you're actually at disadvantage. Like Alpha can wake up CE you, at least I think I read that somewhere. I normally just do iGDR, iGDR, 2A+B into a RCC so I can take advantage of oki and follow them if they backroll.
Or if I'm SUPER lazy I'll do iGDR, b2, CE. I think it looks boss, I'm always sitting on a bunch of meter, and the damage isn't shabby.
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I commend your ability to do it! Your practice has paid off and you deserve the damage more than Viola silliness. ch MCF, RCC 3B, a:B+K into tech traps does a pile of damage too. It's not guaranteed but it's a strong mix up that Yoshi players who can land it deserve it for their time in practice mode. The rest of the cast do similar damage for much less technical demand or more damage with a bit of meter. Even some of aPat's combos are technical AND require meter. I'm fine with them. Don't nerf them down to the level of the easier characters. Why bother learning the technical stuff if the basic moves of other characters do the same or better and often more safely?
 
---Edit--- I didn't know there'd been a reply to my post. I agree more or less, but I guess it's just one of those things. The counter argument I suppose is that at higher level people supposedly play 100% on point with their execution, thus it no longer becomes a factor in balance. I think the argument is a bit ridiculous personally, but I'd rather not get into it with anyone over it.

Anyways the rest of what follows was to the above 4B post.


Except...even if you anticipate it he can still get away from the move. Patroklos has to _run forward_ into 66B if you have any concept of spacing it. If he does that then Mitsu has advantage back. And obviously GI is such a good option when he can cancel into Mist(I get you can react to him coming back in at you but if you watch for that then he transitions into mist you just kissed goodbye to your advantage)

Let's recap.
dodges most characters moves(even advancing ones) as long as not done at point blank
most damage of any "back swing blow" type move(to my knowledge)
safest out of all of as well(to my knowledge due to push back and frames)
guard bursts in 7( equivalent to most the other character's heavy moves they _want_ to make you block)
tracks step very well for something of its type
wall combo/ring out
requires no meter leaving him with his meter based mixups/oki

has enough range you can't backdash away either

Here's a situation where it's use.
Mitsu 6b8's
Pat blocks
Pat's main options are fast poke, 66B/66A, 3A, step, continue blocking
Mitsu's 4B beats all of them except guard, maybe step due to spacing, if stepped it recovers too fast for 8896B to punish. If blocked his guard burst gauge takes a beating.
 
I'm only focusing on iGDR as the initiater combo and when I say iGDR x 3 it's just those three. Now I honestly think the dmg output is just perfect but if I have to tolerate a bit of dmg nerf then going below 90dmg is just retarded.

As Sephalump mentioned it's not that retarded, it does take a good exeuction skill to pull it off alone but even more demanding, when you're blocking an attack that is iGDR punishable you have to be extremely precise because timing is critical and that's more of a risk/reward factor.

As for others like iGDR, iGDR with either 3B, 2A+B and 2B+K sure I can go for a dmg nerf even if they go below 90.
 
I think we all know nobody plays 100% on point. In the World's, Omega was missing NM's very easy a:B slide a notable amount. It's just tension. Woahz, a very good aPat player of course, was missing a bunch of JF Twisters in his recent tourney win. These guys are considered to be among the best of the best. So it they aren't 100% on point, I don't know who the hell is! I agree with you that the reality of play is much different that the theory of robots playing the game like it's the CPU on Legendary Souls mode or something.
 
franman said:
I'm only focusing on iGDR as the initiater combo and when I say iGDR x 3 it's just those three. Now I honestly think the dmg output is just perfect but if I have to tolerate a bit of dmg nerf then going below 90dmg is just retarded.

As Sephalump mentioned it's not that retarded, it does take a good exeuction skill to pull it off alone but even more demanding, when you're blocking an attack that is iGDR punishable you have to be extremely precise because timing is critical and that's more of a risk/reward factor.

As for others like iGDR, iGDR with either 3B, 2A+B and 2B+K sure I can go for a dmg nerf even if they go below 90.
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Well suit yourself! I sure as hell don't want a nerf on my MCF and a:B+K Yoshi shenanigans. I might as well just useMitsu for 2x CEs and 4B bread and butter trolling haha!!
 
Cervy's 1AB actually bothers me more than iGDR. I'd be fine if it wasnt a natural combo but it just seems excessively good. Why even bother giving him other lows when he gots that? aB is pretty stupid too. Compared to these two attacks iGDR doesnt seem as bad.
 
Here's the facts of Mitsu 4B compared so similar moves:
  • Mitsu 4B: 38 damage, -12 on block, KND on NH, rings out, wallsplats, guard burst in 7, has a stance cancel for mixups. Realigns to both sides, making it difficult to step.
  • Raphael 44B: 30 damage, -16 on block, KND on NH, guard burst in 8.
  • Leixia 44B: 26 damage, -22 on block, cancel into aGI to avoid certain punishes, KND with RO ability on NH, stun on CH, guard burst in 8.
  • Hilde 4B: 28 damage, -17 on block, +4 on hit, guard burst in 8
  • Ezio 4B: 30 damage, 56/64 damage on CH, -18 on block, +2 on hit, KND on CH, guard burst in 8.
So not only is Mitsurugi's 4B the most damaging out of these, it's also the safest, has the best tracking, has the best guard damage, and has one of the most evasive backsteps (rivaled only by Raph's and Leixia's).

In conclusion, Mitsurugi's 4B is a pretty retarded move.
 
Maxou said:
Completely wrong. JF Twister is mostly used in combos and not as a punishing tool. 44B+K BE is used as a punishing tool though. Twister/JF Twister is used as a punishing tool for lows or mids that does not end up standing (exemple : Night's 22B).

It's kinda sad how much people don't know Alpha Patroklos gameplan or gameplay.

JF Twister just needs a damage nerf to balance combo damage, but it needs no additional nerf whatsoever.
People tend to think JFT = easy 236B:4 of Pyrrha or Omega or even Patroklos. It's really not that at all.
The imput is : 214~3a:B. Then you imput again 214~3a:B and you have around 2 frames to do so (if opponent tech left).

If someone punishes a move with JFT JFT he REALLY deserves it. Especially at top level, using JFT JFT is not often advised because of the difficulty of this particular combos. Besides missing the second JFT makes Alpha unsafe (something like -16) at wake up.

Oh well... I'll probably get ignored or bashed for posting this. I don't really care.
But please guys, think a little about theorical stuff vs practical stuff.
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You can still buffer 214 from blockstun. It is i14 (did I do that right?). JF version is i12. They are both mid level. How is it not a punishing tool? It's just very easy to do it from tech crouch as you would only have to do 3a:b. That does not mean you can't do it from standing position.

Perhaps you don't use it as a punishing tool but I do.
 
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