taffertier
[10] Knight
Well in theory land sure, but if Ivy and Astaroth switched grab inputs we'd find out quickly how much difficulty really means...
Balance Patch Discussion
- Thread starter Belial
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Well in theory land sure, but if Ivy and Astaroth switched grab inputs we'd find out quickly how much difficulty really means...
Paranormal_Oreo
[12] Conqueror
Still even then it doesn't matter. I'd still be spamming JF grabs with Asty. Difficulty means absolutely nothing. It just means some people can't do something. If they can't do it, it doesn't make the move worse. Just makes it difficult.
Maxou
[11] Champion
What I mean is : JFT is not the principal punishing tool competitive Alpha players use.
And if they do use it, most of the time, they don't even bother with the combo.
It is in NO WAY as good as 236B4 Pyrrha for exemple. Or omega's.
I never said it wasn't a punishing tool (just read me... oh strawman fallacies user), I sometimes use it to punish moves (like I explained I use it most of the time to punish moves that doesn't end up standing - or sometimes, if I feel like gambling with my life bar to punish some moves standing that I can't with 44B+K). But it is not my main punishing tool and shouldn't be for any competitive Alpha player. 44B+K is. 44B+K BE is.
If it's your main punishing too, you will end up giving your opponent massive damage opportunities :
- Because it's hard, while 44B+K BE is easy.
- Because you will be focused too much on it, and you will end up loosing offensive or defensive focus.
- Because it you mess up first Twister / JF Twister (because believe me while we try so hard, we aren't robots), and get it blocked you will end up getting heavily punished.
- Because if you mess up 2nd JF Twister you will end up getting punished or getting in problematic situations.
Twister/JFT into JFT combo is not a problem. If someone have the balls to do it, and get it working, they have all my respects and totally deserve to punish whatever they tried to punish. The problem is the damage.
Oh btw :
Yoshi's FC 3K doesn't RO actually.
It can combo with 6B+KBBB but it's really inconsistent and need side hit and correct range.
taffertier
[10] Knight
It's not about simply being able or not able to. It doesnt work in absolutes. It's about consistency. And difficulty makes certain moves less or more consistent. Maybe if humans worked in a 0 to 100% scale, but they dont. As i said, in theory land execution means nothing, in practice it means a lot. Make CS a regular grab and turn Twister into 236B and watch as madness ensues.
TiZ
[11] Champion
I think it's starting to get a little too personal up in here... :(
Why can't we all just get along? Sure, we can't seem to agree, but we want the same thing.
Why can't we all just get along? Sure, we can't seem to agree, but we want the same thing.
PriZm
[09] Warrior
Re: Twister not being a punishing tool.
JF Twister is easy enough to do that you can nail it every time you try if you practice enough. But it is hard as hell to use as a punishing tool, because:
Twister if left standing is 2143A:B. In theory, it takes at least 5 frames to execute:
1) 2
2) 1
3) 4
4) 3A
5) Release A, B
I don't believe it is humanly possible to do this consistently, though. Especially going from 4 to 3A in 1 frame. I don't know in how many frames a very good player can do it, but it sure as hell is slower to execute than Omega's 236B. So you have to take into account not only frame advantage, but also blockstun and recovery. For example, I find Mitsurugi's 3B very hard to punish with umbrella because although it is -16, the blockstun is almost non-existent, which means you have to execute umbrella very fast. Also, contrary to Omega's or Pyrrha's 236B, the move is absolute death on block, so if you execute it too slow you are gonna eat a free launcher.
I find the idea that execution means nothing laughable. If I one day see a player with 100% perfect execution, I might believe it, but as it stands, it must absolutely be taken into account when discussing moves' efficiency. If anything, the fact that hard moves take longer to execute should at the very least count (iCS, Astaroth's command throws, etc.)
It's very easy to say that with enough practice, people can do the hardest moves with perfect speed/consistency, but the real world has shown us otherwise countless number of times.
JF Twister is easy enough to do that you can nail it every time you try if you practice enough. But it is hard as hell to use as a punishing tool, because:
Twister if left standing is 2143A:B. In theory, it takes at least 5 frames to execute:
1) 2
2) 1
3) 4
4) 3A
5) Release A, B
I don't believe it is humanly possible to do this consistently, though. Especially going from 4 to 3A in 1 frame. I don't know in how many frames a very good player can do it, but it sure as hell is slower to execute than Omega's 236B. So you have to take into account not only frame advantage, but also blockstun and recovery. For example, I find Mitsurugi's 3B very hard to punish with umbrella because although it is -16, the blockstun is almost non-existent, which means you have to execute umbrella very fast. Also, contrary to Omega's or Pyrrha's 236B, the move is absolute death on block, so if you execute it too slow you are gonna eat a free launcher.
I find the idea that execution means nothing laughable. If I one day see a player with 100% perfect execution, I might believe it, but as it stands, it must absolutely be taken into account when discussing moves' efficiency. If anything, the fact that hard moves take longer to execute should at the very least count (iCS, Astaroth's command throws, etc.)
It's very easy to say that with enough practice, people can do the hardest moves with perfect speed/consistency, but the real world has shown us otherwise countless number of times.
YoshiKatYoko
[09] Warrior
Try asking other Pyrrha members. I don't personally use Pyrrha, but I've been seeing a lot of other' posts that Pyrrha is better than Omega.
There are still many things why you actually need to nerfed her stab damages. Not only they are used as punishers, they are used in whiff punishers, TC, used in combos, used in backstep killers, used for forced block mix-ups, safe (at least for DNSB's pushback that some characters can't punish it at -14) and etc.
Why do I didn't complain about JF T? It's i12 yes, but hard to execute as a punisher. It takes 5 frames to do that move (refer to t Prizm's post). Unless you are using programmable stick, then this is pretty hard to pull off. Omega's DNSB:4 is 82 damage, has a lot of uses, and is pretty consistent.
Slade
[14] Master
JFT does not take 5 frames to do. Even though the game runs at 60FPS, inputs are registered as they are performed. JFT is about doing 3a:B in a 1 frame slide. Ergo, it still hits i12 if you execute it properly (buffer 214, then do 3a:B perfectly).
It's all about the buffering. That's why CS is faster than iCS, because iCS can't be buffered.
It's entirely possible to punish -12 moves with JFT, but in a tournament setting you're not going to see it happen much, especially with the risk of missing JFT x2.
It's all about the buffering. That's why CS is faster than iCS, because iCS can't be buffered.
It's entirely possible to punish -12 moves with JFT, but in a tournament setting you're not going to see it happen much, especially with the risk of missing JFT x2.
Maxou
[11] Champion
Not even in a tournament settings, I'd be happy to see someone punish consistently -12 moves with JFT in freeplay.
PriZm
[09] Warrior
Actually, games do not poll the controller outside of the main game loop, which means it does not take into account input faster than one frame.
I know it's all about buffering, that is what I meant by blockstun and recovery. When you block a move, you have to input your punishment during the blockstun to buffer it, right ? Theoretically, if the blockstun is less than 5 frames, even if the move is -12, it is impossible to punish with JF umbrella. Practically, if the blockstun is less than whatever you need to input umbrella, you will not be able to punish. That is why punishment with this move is so hard, because inputting it takes a lot longer framewise than a simple(r) 236B.
I know it's all about buffering, that is what I meant by blockstun and recovery. When you block a move, you have to input your punishment during the blockstun to buffer it, right ? Theoretically, if the blockstun is less than 5 frames, even if the move is -12, it is impossible to punish with JF umbrella. Practically, if the blockstun is less than whatever you need to input umbrella, you will not be able to punish. That is why punishment with this move is so hard, because inputting it takes a lot longer framewise than a simple(r) 236B.
Paranormal_Oreo
[12] Conqueror
Ask good Omega players. Like Suirad or Partisan since they both play Pyrrha and Omega.
Also, DNS B doesn't hit rolling or non moving OTG. JFT does all of those things that you said DNS B does + hit grounded + clean hit. And also, read Slade's post. He's right.
ShinJin
[09] Warrior
i dont know how much frame analisis you've done but theres no move in the game that fits in to that catagory.
from the instant the move is blocked till the time you can attack is usually alot bigger then 5 frames.
TiZ
[11] Champion
Actually, both you and Slade are right at the same time. Input events are *registered* more or less instantaneously, and in order, but they are *processed* at 60FPS. Every frame, the engine will look at the input buffer and act on whatever it sees there. If it sees that someone did 236236A+B+K all in one frame, a CE happens.
PriZm
[09] Warrior
Yes that is true, but it also takes a lot more than 5 frames to input JF Twister, for a human. It would be definitely be interesting to see how fast top players can input it in both training and match contexts.
TiZ: I've never seen any game work the way you describe. Usually you poll the state of the controller every frame (so that you know which buttons are being pressed on that frame) and your own framework determines button presses and releases. I've never seen an input API that can tell you 'what happened since last time I polled you'. But anyways that is pretty offtopic so let's discuss it in PM if you want.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
I have no idea why cervantes has such powerful aGIs compared to raph
ChaosK
[13] Hero
YoshiKatYoko
[09] Warrior
I just want to ask Ramon/Suirad/Partisan on their thoughts about Pyrrha. I myself is a good Omega - so I don't need to ask any other Omega players.
I don't care if DNS B doesn't hit rolls or non moving (except for combos) if you have 66B as a good OTG killer and forced block situations. We're talking about it as a very high damage as a single attack - that's why I want to nerf it. JF T is a good punisher - you just need to get it consistent to pull off as a punisher/in a combo 'cause it whiffs pretty badly.
InvadahSC
[08] Mercenary
No need to reply about buffs and nerfs, but honestly I want to nerf the best characters in the game (Mitsu, Algol and Astaroth to be exact). I also want to nerf PyrrhaO's stab damage, YoshiKatYoko explains it all.
Solo
[14] Master
All I want is for Sieg not to whiff as much and more meterless damage off of 3B, at least 50. Remove AC from SCH K so we can connect both knees for 50 damage. Also let WR B hit grounded, it going right through people just looks stupid. I know you can just do 3B but it just going right through them has to be the biggest whiff I have ever seen.
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