Solo
[14] Master
I just needed to vent, venting done.
Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion
- Thread starter Slayer_X64
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ChaosK
[13] Hero
Both.
First the whole viola thing with a lot of people thinking namco abandoned the game and then at practically the same day, heaton, the probably most enthusiastic guy here on 8wayrun, announcing that he is dropping the game because he is not enjoying it. And then you guys saying you're apparently not enjoying it either.
I mean there's nothing wrong with it, if you are not having fun than you are not having fun but its just a big downer.
To a certain degree this is worse for me than people thinking siegfried being weak - i can deal with this, we can discuss MU's and strategies and stuff, its no problem - but if someone is not having fun there's nothing i can do about it.
But i guess this is what happens when you have to play against alexandrias all the time...
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
My main issue is while I do use variety I feel very limited sometimes because he just feels so flawed but he is who I am best with so I make it work... but honesty right now playing online it's all 1K and WR B from Solo and me for half our moves lol.
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
I don't think sieg is a 4 move character.
B6
A
A
1K
CHB
CHA
These are the incredible keep out tools. He has a horizontal that does throw damage, and 3 of those are hard to whiff punish.
22A
3K
9K
6K
66K
22kA:2A
These are attacks with more offensive applications from mid-range.
iWSB
3B
22B
3A
CHB
SSHB
These are his whiff punishers
Throws....
guard break attacks....
A multitude of stances and a treasure chest of tricks....
I picked this guy because he was one of the few characters i found fun in SC V (I like tricks and detail), and sieg could give all that.
Step up your game guys. he can do so much more
B6
A
A1K
CHB
CHA
These are the incredible keep out tools. He has a horizontal that does throw damage, and 3 of those are hard to whiff punish.
22A
3K
9K
6K
66K
22kA:2A
These are attacks with more offensive applications from mid-range.
iWSB
3B
22B
3A
CHB
SSHB
These are his whiff punishers
Throws....
guard break attacks....
A multitude of stances and a treasure chest of tricks....
I picked this guy because he was one of the few characters i found fun in SC V (I like tricks and detail), and sieg could give all that.
Step up your game guys. he can do so much more
Divined
[09] Warrior
I know what you mean people act so butthurt over nothing.
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
Dude it's him not having fun not you. It's pretty weak to let that get to you. Just keep on playing this awesome game.
But damn you were from Australia or some place? Probably not a lot of competition out there everyone probably too busy Crochuntin'. And you can't really connect to the outside world as well. Well I'd rather be there classifing Venomous snakes than to be in this wasteland of ice that's for sure...
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
New Zealand. Way smaller than Aussie bro.
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
Whoa that's even worse than me. Isolation wise. You guys even have the oldest kind of Lizard in the world!
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
Yea we have 4.5 million people over the whole country give or take.
Bastet
[12] Conqueror
T-T
Solo
[14] Master
I'll try to implement these into my game so I can have a little bit of fun before JG takes over.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
What no, i am from germany :D
I'll definitely keep on playing this game, notice that i said "almost" - the thought of quiting never crossed my mind :)
I just wanted to express how i felt about the recent negativity.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
People are entitled to their own optinion. unfortunately you'll have to accept that.
I don't think sieg is a 4 move character.
B6
A
1K
CHB
CHA
These are the incredible keep out tools. He has a horizontal that does throw damage, and 3 of those are hard to whiff punish.
tbh i dont agree that SCHB and SCHA are zoning tools. SCH A is more like a cover your ass tool when a stance transition gets blocked. SCH B is a combo tool when you get CH 3B/WR B, and a frame trapping tool to force your opponent to play your mind games. and 1K i would classify as more of a poking/baiting tool(i suppose there are some ways you could attempt to use it for zoning, but its really not that great.) as i would list siegs zoning tools:
b6
agA
22B
66B@tip(actually not so great because the pushback isnt quite so substantial. but against some characters it does the job)
6B@tip(again not so great simply because of its linearity. but if you find yourself in a position where whiff punishing isnt much of an option, this can give them a good shove back. it also provides an interesting TC that can come in handy in a handful of situations)
2A(fast long range low)
and if i were to expand these to on moves you could expect to hit rather consistently:
3A(great knock back range)
22A(great knock back, but more of an offensive zoning tool IMO. its a bit slow to really be used outside of agressive baiting/whiff punishment, and even then the zoning just comes naturally in those situations. but its a safe hori mid which on block can also at least help keep the opponent in check)
3aA: a bit mediocre, but a decent opposite application tool to match up with 3A, assuming you can input it fast enough.
now if you already had the opponent at tip range, you might consider throwing these into your gameplay as well:
3B@tip (this is actually decent because on block it pushes back even more, and on hit you're getting a nice STN to keep the opponent away from you. it also comes in handy to counter rushdown if you're opponent gets too agressive. just be careful that you keep in mond with how linear this move actually is, or you're gonna find yourself in trouble, or at the very least in close range, which is less than comfortable for sieg.)
stance roullete/SBH A shennanigans: try and see if you can nip your opponents step with this move. gives you an opportunity to get in, get some damage and get out. also a good way to bait your opponent. if you find yourself about to get blocked, SBH A is cancelable too, allowing you to generally escape harm free, only placing you in dangerous close range.
iWR A: great step CH fishing tool with decent range. kills rushdown fairly well, and is cancelable. good way to dominate over the step game and make your opponent think twice.
now if i went to break down his poking tools, it would look more along the lines of this:
1K: decent low poke. free damage alot of the time, and can provoke your opponent to act, but mediocre positioning at best.
2A: decent long range low poke that also catches step to one side. not great positioning but it at least gives you some relatively low risk reaching ability due to its speed.
3K: mainly a mid interrupt. can be nice if people start to twitch and block your 1K's.
b6: great long range mid poke in the same class as 2A. neutral on hit, so it can bait relatively well, but a touch linear.
and frame trap moves that set up a bit of poking, or even CH fishing (which i wont get into here) would be:
again, iagA - obvious
SCH B
but that about covers siegfried in the way of zoning. IMO since the removal of things such as 22{B} SSH both his zoning and oki game have suffered.
i dont agree that 3K is really a great offensive mid range tool. i listed it before as a poking tool, and really the only offensive capabilities i see from it are locking up the opponent on hit, and gimmicky fear advantage on block. imo unless you're utilizing the combination of move speed with a tech crouch, i dont believe 66K belongs in here either, since its linearity and the fact that it barely makes the range class makes it ill suited for this range. i'd stick to it more as a punishment tool. as for 22kA:2A i'll be honest in that, i find the move to be completely over rated in this game. sure it might KND if you're lucky enough to catch step with it, but its slow and reactable, and the advantage it gives is nothing extrordinary. sets up you're average poking/CH fishing mixup. the only things i'd say this move has going for it is that its one of his safer lows, it has fear advantage to a limited extent, and it covers the horizontal spectrum. but IMO especially at mid range where opponents can simply just step in and interrupt you, or turtle up and block if they fear your other mid range tools, this move just doesnt make the cut. again its poor speed and reactability play a giant factor in this. its one of those moves that i'll only throw out on occasion when my opponent isnt expecting to see it coming out.
6K is an ok TC at this range. it more or less covers that close-midrange gap. but i think its also beat out in "deep" mid range by moves like iWS B easily.
if i had to list solid sieg mid range moves...i'd put them like this:
iagA: creates fear of step, pushes back, and gives advantage. can really wear an opponent down in the right application.
iWS B
6K
b6
22A(mainly used for checking the opponent)
2A
3A
6A(more of an emergency tool if anything. kinda runs along the same range as 6K)
iWR A: great tool for keeping the opponent in check, and giving them a reason to fear the step game.
22B IMO isnt top priority for whiff punishing. the damage is nice, the whiffing is not, and really reliability is a huge factor, at least in my selection. i'd say its more long range/situational. same with 3B in certain situations. while i dont like the fact that i have to re-allign my SCH B's in this game, i'll admit the pay off is great, and comes at zero risk assuming you're able to step something with SCH(the step on that stance really isnt great. again, situational.) of course i always feel robbed when i step something and either it whiffs because i didnt re-align, or my opponent blocks it because i had to take the few extra frames to re-align. suddenly absurd damage turns into a poking/ch fishing mixup all over again, though im not gonna say thats a bad thing either. its just not as great as the reward you deserve. SSH B technically is a whiff punisher, but again i'd fit it into the class of baiting simply because of the way the stance itself operates.
if i had to state siegs whiff punishers:
3B(be careful)
iWS B
3A
SSH B
22B(long range and situational)
22A(low damage but very very reliable)
b6(low damage but again, reliable)
the whole purpose of the concept is to at least make sure you're getting the free damage. and at least meterless, IMO sieg doesnt get anything special from whiff punishing. however the free damage does count.
occasionally if i step to an opponents side, or even to their back, and i find myself in need to close a damage gap, i might use grabs to punish too. but thats also taking a risk and realizing the potential loss of damage.
great range, and mediocre mixup. terrible damage. makes it so an opponent has almost nothing to fear unless you can land these in a row consistently without them breaking them. imo his throw game is still a bit weaker than it should be. he needs more damage in that area.
his guard crushing game is ok, and it plays an important role into not having your opponents walk all over you, but when it comes right down to it i really wouldnt rely on it for major victories or anything unless the opportunity simply presents itself.
hes got some ok gimmicks. they can rake in fair damage, but theyre nothing special in comparison with the rest of the cast, especially considering the amount of risk involved. on top of this, IMO his stance game is actually weaker than it was in 4. SCH is just as open to attack in defensive situations, and is really only suitable for combo's and frame trapping(maybe occasional whiff punishing but as i said before i view this as unreliable.), SRSH...well theres only 2 ways to get this stance to even work: the opponent locks up to stance roulette(can work, but you're also taking huge punishemt risks on top of the unsafety of the stance) and throwing it out on wakeup(in which this stance is completely useless if your opponent has a brain at all because since the removal or SRSH A+B, nothing hits grounded, making it so that the opponent doesnt even have a reason to stand up to block something. and anything you throw at them that actually hits grounded involves switching or cancelling a stance, which at the very least is reactable, and at best, interruptable. SSH is meh. its only sole purpose now is baiting and whiff punishing. the poke capabilities of the stance due to its increased unsafety have gone almost entirely out the window, and the lack of an SSH A+B both hurts zoning and to an extent, baiting because the stance has nothing to deal with overly agressive opponents(SSH K can rarely suit the situation with mediocricy, but the fact that its a high truly limits its applications to do so.). really the only stance i actually like in this game is SBH. the stance now has a practical low, and it still has everything else which made it work alright in SCIV and SCIII, not to mention the buff to the GI window is a godsend, seeing as how many horizontals you're going to see thrown out in this game due to the changes in the step system. this is by far his best stance IMHO.
I picked him up for the exact same reasons. except in this installment of the series i dont really feel like he can offer that. now lets make this clear: im not a bad siegfried player. it took me some time, but i have adjusted to SCV, and while i may not be the next pantocrator or anything, im still fairly formidable and dangerous of a player, just the same as you are shen, and just the same as many of the other players on this site. now siegfried, im not saying hes a bad character, but for 1.i dont think hes anything special in comparison to the rest of the cast, and 2.I feel that the simplification of his style has funneled him mostly into a 1 track, linear play style which the other SA members here simply just over characterize and over exaggerate with posts like "WR B WR B iagA 1K grabs" but to me it is clear that he lacks the same elasticity, adaptability, and natural flowing gameplay that he had in previous installments, regardless of how good or bad of a character we consider him to be from then until now. to put it bluntly, he feels like an incomplete character, and i feel some aspects of his gameplay has dearly suffered for it, especially in the departments of CH fishing, baiting/poking, and zoning. for me it eliminates the good flow of the character, and makes him feel unreasonably stiff to use.
Now just to make this clear shen, this last little part isnt directed at you, but rather the SA as a whole. rather than using the SA to state our conflicting opinions about "oh siegfried is so top tier" or "oh siegfried is so terrible" what we should be doing is using it for refining our strategic prowess and trying to make the best of what we have. trying to maintain a level of productivity and reasoning, and trying to help eachother overcome these character flaws good or bad.
I dont think i could have said this better myself.
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
The mere fact you wrote so much Slayer made me like it before I read it.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
when i got something to say, i say it. i almost always write this much. been at this post since 3 in the morning
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
Yea just finished reading it I say I actually agree with most of that post, if not all of it, it really describes how he works in this game rather well.
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
Sorry for the double post but does anyone have any tips for dealing with Asta's 22_88 B BE that thing is tracking me all over the damn place and if I mistime a JG goodbye to half my health bar.
Solo
[14] Master
Does anyone know exactly what 66A impacts? Does it have a similar property to SBH or is it like Xiba's B+K aGI? If it's like Xiba's I might start using it quite a bit.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
All horizontals except kicks.
Solo
[14] Master
Damn...
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