1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Everything you say here is perfect theory fighter.

Why?

Because Kilik CAN do all those things doesnt mean that a player will predict every situation that will arise and counter perfectly. You can say the same about a number of other characters but it seems that in the current state of things that people are looking for whats really good and wanting to ban that character. Kilik has been the same as he has since SC3 and I believe that he should sit at the exact same place on the tier list(lol more tier listings) that he has since SC3.


Sorry but Cano is far from theory fighter. If you can come here and beat him consistently then it's all good. This man is literally a robot. Maybe some Tekken peeps would know who he is.

But anyway I digress. Kilik WSB didn't pushblock in SC3, it does now and it's REALLYYYYYYYYYYYY ANNOYING. At least you could mix him up on block before, you can't now. And MO throws from FC is too damn good. They actually come out faster than standing.

Let's see:

Safety? Check

Damage? Check

Overpowered moves? Check

Half stage or more ROs? Check

Good throw game? Not good, great. Check as well.

By all means, tell me his weaknesses.

I'm all eyes and ears.
 
I need some Cano2k strats, pronto! (Never thought about doing MO throws from FC...that's pretty nasty O_O)

Cano is a VERY well respected Tekken player; I didn't know he played SC competitively. Is he #1 in PR?
 
Sup wing_zero :)

MO Throws are better from FC because of WSB. Kilik really doesn't have a fast damaging mid from standing. 4A+B can be ducked then stood up and blocked on reaction.

Also, after playing a few more times I came to the conclusion that he would be still a great character even WITHOUT Autoparry asura (He still needs it for combos and long range whiffs).This will probably be patched because of all the whiners so I rather just get used to it from now on. He can still just regular GI into his really good options, not as good as Asura but still good enough.

As for strats, I have a few that I haven't seen other people use. Angrel leaked a couple. :). Rather save em up for nationals.

PM me or add me on MSN.

Cano
 
Safety comes from the moves he has that doesnt do too much in terms of KD.

Damage usually comes from his unsafe moves outside of WS B

Overpowered moves? If you're talking about WS B and Asura then you really need to step up your game, because if you let 2 moves shut you down then you need to shut up.

RO's? Asta has more RO potential if you wanna get into that but I wont. His only half stage RO would be FoTD into Asura. Other than that he does have moves that RO(4A, 1A+B, B throw, MO B throw, 3kB, 6K, 4B, etc) but you cant act like other characters have different RO moves too.

His throws are good but you have to remember that you know what throws will give Kilik damage (FoTD) or ring outs (B throw, MO A throw, MO B throw). And all of that has to do with positioning as well.


I dont know what would posses you to place Kilik at #1 because your other posts in this thread seem to make the same amount of sense as time passes; but you know what? You seem like the kind of guy who knows what hes talking about because you let a single character shut you down and decided because the character has the right tools in just about every situation, said character has an answer and automatically counters any process of thought.

But hey if Kilik wins more majors from random people who havent even touched the character beforehand, then you can take this post and laugh at your monitor and hope that your hurtful laugh will then be sent through the internet, out of my monitor and cause me to go all the way down to where you are to apologize in person.
 
I recently played online with a friend of mine and we let one slot open for other people to play.

We did wel in the beginning comparing to the other opponents that showed up. The first 3 where mitsurugis and then two kiliks followed :(.
About the Kilik disccusion that he's broken, I've played against a lot of Kiliks it's insane. But I have never seen moves that I couldn't escape, block etc.
I main Taki and her speed outmatches Kilik's, because Taki is fast, I can always come up close wich Kilik would prefer to have a distance from his opponents I believe.

The moves of Kilik that people are talking about, I know of them but I never even thought of Kilik being broken. Maybe Taki is just a good matchup against Kilik but there are other characters who are faster or have more range then Taki.
If the people, who are complaining about Kilik, can post their character(s) they use and what moves you have trouble with when playing against Kilik, I can have a better view of what's going on.
Kilik is just easy to use, maybe the easiest character?

To return to the onlinematches of last night with me and a friend of mine: One guy showed up and he first picked Ivy. He did a stuncombo über-1337-berserk attack wich did 50% damage of a full health bar. This was insane. We couldn't escape it when we blocked/sidestepped or any other way.
We lack experience when playing against Ivy but what we have seen was us being destroyed. The combo contains a serie of differentmoves wich most of them stun. Is this familiar to anyone or is there just some basic moves/things you could do to escape this?
If not, I think Ivy could be raised a tier.

He also picked almost every character and beat us with it. You can conclude that me and that friend of my...are not as good as that guy. :p

I'm considering using different characters when playing with friends to help them train against different characters. However, I'm not good with other characters than Taki so will this type of training help? I will have a better understanding of other characters because I'm using their moves to see how they work and what they do, my friends will also see those moves and will learn how to counter them etc.
This is because we don't know a lot of people who play SC4 and live near us.

About the metaknight in Brawl discussion. I play and know Brawl very well. Brawl contains 60% less moves than SC4, Brawl is way easier than SC4 and uses a different fighting system.
Because you have a lot of less moves available, you have less options to defend/counter. If there are some moves that are way better than most than you can conclude that they are broken and eventually lead to banning the character.
Most people are just complaining but there are a lot of players who come up with good facts and arguments that MetaKnight should be banned.
In short, MetaKnight is very quick and his moves are mostly piercing your shield and have more priority than moves of other characters.
Maybe people don't know at the moment how to defend against MetaKnight or maybe there aren't any strategies to beat MetaKnight.
Brawl is far less balanced than SC4 and Brawl is more intented as a 'fun-game' rather than a game that is great to play competitevely.
 
Kilik is just easy to use, maybe the easiest character?
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The combo contains a serie of differentmoves wich most of them stun. Is this familiar to anyone or is there just some basic moves/things you could do to escape this?

No character is easymode. Trust me, I've looked. Nadaez may contest and say "Hilde's easymode!" but the execution is definitely not easymode, and you can play mindgames directly with the execution if you play it right (throws, GIs of charged attacks, etc.)

As for Ivy, well... A stun combo, if you're going to call it that, should be differentiated- there are stuns that act like regular combo components, and then there are stuns that you can shake out of and escape.

But... Ivy does have a number of impressive, long, guaranteed (if I recall correctly) combos... if you don't get a grip on yourself you can lose the flow of the entire match. Gotta get used to that...
 
Amy:

Strengths:
-Very good RO-game (33B, can RO lying down with 236K:A)
-Good mixup (3BA for example. Not the best but solid)
-Good Oki (A+K-stance)
-Good punisher(6BB, i11)
-Somewhat good damage (Nothing spectacular. 66A+B and 6:6B are some examples. Relative to how safe/often they might hit)
-Great Soul Crush damage (88_22B for example)
-IMO, good defence (Good 2A, i11 6BB)

Weakness:
-Throws (worst after Apprentice?)
-Steppable
-Pokes does somewhat low damage (My impression atleast)

She's not my main, but she hasn't been discussed to much of what I've seen, and it would be interesting to hear from Amy-players. I think she's a solid character with good interrupts, good offence/defence, but I think she loses some with her weak throw-game. She's also somewhat scary when close to the edge. She would have better pressure with better throws IMO. Overall Top/Top-Mid.
 
Shadowfox:

Man, I don't ask for an apology or anything like that, heehee!!!

I do think you can't believe he is that good in this game. He is.

I guess it's natural to undermine our mains a little bit. I kinda did that with Setsuka in SC3, Hwang in SC1 and Raphael in SC2.


BTW, to all who said he isn't #1, fine, who is and why?

It's easy and annoying to say no and don't say why and who is better suited.

The legacy of SC tier threads since forever, where peeps criticize but don't put their 2 cents in.
 
About the metaknight in Brawl discussion. I play and know Brawl very well. Brawl contains 60% less moves than SC4, Brawl is way easier than SC4 and uses a different fighting system.
Because you have a lot of less moves available, you have less options to defend/counter. If there are some moves that are way better than most than you can conclude that they are broken and eventually lead to banning the character.
Most people are just complaining but there are a lot of players who come up with good facts and arguments that MetaKnight should be banned.
In short, MetaKnight is very quick and his moves are mostly piercing your shield and have more priority than moves of other characters.
Maybe people don't know at the moment how to defend against MetaKnight or maybe there aren't any strategies to beat MetaKnight.
Brawl is far less balanced than SC4 and Brawl is more intented as a 'fun-game' rather than a game that is great to play competitevely.

haha I was referring to the fact that I think it is too early to even be discussing a tierlist. If anything, I think this justifies my argument. If Brawl is a simpler game, why would it take longer to decide on a substantial tierlist? Melee was the same way, and that game is still being played in high-end tournaments. I think these forums are doing a very good job of learning different techniques and combos/juggles for every character, however I still think we should see the results of more tournaments before getting this argumentative. Really, it was just my 2 cents ;)
 
So where is Raphael? Who is he above? To me he seems to have range but he doesn't seem very fast, blocking seems to hurt him a bit and his lows seem to suck on block. The ones that have range seem like they will become pretty obvious. Not sure how good he is at guard crush. Side step seems get around a ton of his stuff. Prep sucks.

Is his RO potential very good just because of his grabs? Seems like it isn't. How is his damage overall compared to everyone else? How safe is he?
 
Raph is decent. Nearly everyone's lows suck on block so I consider it somewhat of a non-issue. Lows should normally be hitting in the first place. 2K, 1A, and 33B are pretty nice low pokes. Prep > throw will deal with step. He has very good evasive moves and whiff punishing. Combo damage is pretty good.
 
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