1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[andur]

The CPU would probably help you in terms of punishment, but that's about it.

Sometimes you'll see it pull out a move or combo or something that you haven't seen before. I've also found out a few times against it that things that I thought were combos are actually possible to get out of. Course, you can find that out in training mode as well. (though it has its flaws and ommissions, why's there no break all throws option or the ability to just pick any move from a list for the training dummy to do?)

 

[KingZeal]

Well, mostly, we've got combos covered here each character's individual subforum. I'm not saying that one shouldn't experiment, but it's not exactly a glaring necessity at this point.

Another thing I use the computer for is to test my knowledge of Frame Data. Since the computer, for the most part, has no inkling of things like "frame traps" or "tech traps", I can use it as a test to see if I understand the hard numbers.

 

[Impending_Doom66]

The CPU would probably help you in terms of punishment, but that's about it.

Yeah that's true. When I picked up Angol Fear (hate Mina)i decided to test her against edgemaster Sophie. That is when I realized how unsafe she is. I had to really whittle down when and where to use stuff so I didn't eat a 236B.

 

[Kix]

Raph is decent. Nearly everyone's lows suck on block so I consider it somewhat of a non-issue. Lows should normally be hitting in the first place. 2K, 1A, and 33B are pretty nice low pokes. Prep > throw will deal with step. He has very good evasive moves and whiff punishing. Combo damage is pretty good.

His combos seemed pretty good and he seems to have good damage and great range so that's what it looked like he had going for him. Are is lows just average then you would say? So where does this land him on the tiers? Just somewhere in mid?

Anyone else notice that his stuff whiffs for seemingly no reason sometimes even when it should hit? Also because of slight changes in opponents position?

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

i just wanna say something totally ignorant...but i dont care.

maxi should be top or 2nd tier: 6 stances, and a mix up game that will piss you the hell off. i expect this post to get ripped apart, but i dont care, i love maxi!!

 

[Tiamat]

His combos seemed pretty good and he seems to have good damage and great range so that's what it looked like he had going for him. Are is lows just average then you would say? So where does this land him on the tiers? Just somewhere in mid?

Anyone else notice that his stuff whiffs for seemingly no reason sometimes even when it should hit? Also because of slight changes in opponents position?

I think he is roughly mid tier now. I would say he has good low pokes but not good lows for straight mixup. When I say this I mean he has good ranged lows that are fast for chipping damage (ex: 1A), but in strong mixup situations he lacks lows with advantage on hit, knockdown, and high damage. Because of this you'll mostly rely on throws for stronger mixups. His throws are pretty decent range and damage wise.

He has some trouble dealing with sidesteppers at range but it doesn't make him horrible.

about whiffing moves, there can be a lot of factors for that so best to ask in raph forum for specific questions about moves whiffing

 

[Reffy]

haha I was referring to the fact that I think it is too early to even be discussing a tierlist. If anything, I think this justifies my argument. If Brawl is a simpler game, why would it take longer to decide on a substantial tierlist? Melee was the same way, and that game is still being played in high-end tournaments. I think these forums are doing a very good job of learning different techniques and combos/juggles for every character, however I still think we should see the results of more tournaments before getting this argumentative. Really, it was just my 2 cents ;)

The thing is that there's a lot of tournament activity with Brawl and people are making tierlists based on those results. Because the game is 'young', you will get a lot of rapidly changing tierlists as well as much discussion like banning MetaKnight.
Maybe most people don't have the patience to wait a full year so that there are more tournament results and other facts wich will end to a better tier-list. Most people are just whining about MetaKnight, also known as scrubs.

On-topic, first of all, I hate Zalasamel even more because of his stupid ending. I think he should be bellow bottom tier just for that.

Second, I think Raphael is a fair balanced character. Not top-mid but certainly not lower than mid.
Need to see Raphael more in action by the way.

Third, is the tierlist in the first post ever going to be updated? Do we have to wait on more tournament results? Are there any tournaments?

And fourth, maybe I shouldn't ask this here but should I atleast use two characters? I haven't had any trouble with Taki against other characters. I always know a way to, at least, hurt the opponent :p.
I'm thinking of Nightmare, Kilik. Or Setsuka/Hilde. A character that is totally different than Taki, so if there's a character that has an advantage against Taki, I have a second option by choosing a different character.

 

[Ryderych]

As was said in the "early impressions..." thread, Taki is the most difficult character to play, by far: "...for pros only," the original writer said.

That's still true, post-patch: top-notch players can realize her full potential, and play her at the top-tier level. Skilled players can be effective with her, but not to her max.

 

[KingZeal]

Wouldn't that be true of every character?

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

heres whats funny!!! Talim is considered "low tier"??? How jaxel just placed with her in the NY tourney. We need an updated tier list, if there is such a thing!

 

[coth_x]

heres whats funny!!! Talim is considered "low tier"??? How jaxel just placed with her in the NY tourney. We need an updated tier list, if there is such a thing!

What characters did he fight and what was their skill level and experience in comparison to his. If the skill and exp were roughly equal I might be impressed. Otherwise it could have been dumb luck. Talim just seems idk easy to deal with most of the time. I usually use Siegfried, so that might be why.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

What characters did he fight and what was their skill level and experience in comparison to his. If the skill and exp were roughly equal I might be impressed. Otherwise it could have been dumb luck. Talim just seems idk easy to deal with most of the time. I usually use Siegfried, so that might be why.

im not sure who he played, nor what characters he played against. I do know that the particular tourney he was in was for NEC in december. So it wasnt at someones house or nothing. As far as skill level compared to his, im sure they had to be at least equal!! I agree talim doesnt give me to much trouble either but........My point of that whole post was, The "tier list" that has come up on this particular thread is somewhat flawed. Talim bottom tier? Maxi low mid tier? Zas low as well? Whos making this list up? I do some little competitions at various peoples house around San diego. Every single time I pick maxi, I see eyes rolling, snickers coming from behind me etc. But When I whop the shit out of them, they have trouble picking jaws up off the floor.

I guess maybe Im so offended that my beloved maxi is low on this alleged list. Thats probablly because He hasnt been represented at tourneys the right way or enough at all. IMO this list doesnt mean shit till this game has been out longer. Im just tired of all the maxi bashing! I believe that any character has a defense and offense against any other character. Im not looking to argue with anyone, I dont want to get anyones panties in a twist, yall can think im just a retarded loser...i dont care. This is just my opinion

 

[IRHari]

Hey everybody,
I'm new to the forums, as you can tell. I just bought SC4 for PS3, and I was wondering who might be good to main. I was pretty good in SC2 as Voldo and Cervantes (on GCN). I was wondering if theyre easy to pick up or if theyve changed a lot since then. Who would you recommend?
Also, I'm still getting used to the PS3 controller, as I'm used to playing Soul calibur on the gamecube controller. Do most of you keep it on default controls? Please let me know what the most comfortable button config might be.
Also my PSN ID is IRHari, and I'd like to play some people to test out whatever char people recommend for me. I feel like you only get better when you play other people as opposed to the computer, since the computer tends to use all moves in a characters repertoire, and of course only a few of them are viable (i.e. safe). I appreciate any responses!

 

[Ryderych]

Wouldn't that be true of every character?

No.

The key words in my previous post are "most difficult..by far" and they correlate with maximum effectiveness attained by top-notch players. With several characters, above-average players can be effective by learning a few distinct moves, spamming them, and then button-mashing the rest of the time. That's been discussed ad nauseum in this and other forums.

Given Taki's damage reduction, then minutely precise timing, expertly calculated distance, and adaptively optimized combos are required to play her to maximum effectivess, moreso than any other character. Please note the adverbs I'm using here.

These factors are especially pertinent for online Taki play, where latency and lag (and those are two different things) are a pain in the ass.

Few players are capable of this. I'm not bad-mouthing anyone. I'm merely stating my conclusion based on seeing many hours of competitive play. Like any other opinion here, mine is subject to critique. Reasonable people can differ.

 

[Reffy]

As was said in the "early impressions..." thread, Taki is the most difficult character to play, by far: "...for pros only," the original writer said.

That's still true, post-patch: top-notch players can realize her full potential, and play her at the top-tier level. Skilled players can be effective with her, but not to her max.

Setsuka and Hilde on top-tier was strange for me but I can understand that but I have yet to see them in action. Where are the Hilde/Setsuka players?

But what you are saying about Taki being one of the hardest characters to play...
I main Taki and don't have any secondary character(yet). Maybe I have some strange talent that allows me to control and understanding Taki very well but I have more trouble with Hilde/Setsuka than Taki.

Because Taki is fast, you don't have to time everything precisely. Taki is more a character that uses a lot of high-low attacks.
There are some attacks that needs you to have good spacing otherwise you miss and got punished. But every character has those.

I'm not a button basher and have played against other Takis to but I rarely miss a attack. That doesn't mean they don't block, I'm just saying that I think the expertly calculated distance etc. is a little over the top.

Are you(Ryderych) saying that most people are just pushing some buttons when they pick Taki and that they hardly know how to use Taki's full potential? I heard the same thing about Kilik wich are different characters.

Hot_Rod_Dave, what you are saying about Maxi, I also feel slightly offended that Taki is mid-tier because I believe she's upper-tier atleast.
The thing with Maxi is that you need to take more time to learn how to uses his moves than let's say Kilik's. Because of his...unappealing fighting-style and controls, people often choose a easier-to-use character. That's why their eyes are rolling when you win because they can hardly imagine that Maxi could do such things.
I had the same thing about Hilde, I did not thought that she would be top-tier because I couldn't use her properly. I saw some vids and it changed my opinion. Maybe people need to see more of Maxi aswel.

IRHari, welcome. I think you should go for Cervantes again.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Hot_Rod_Dave, what you are saying about Maxi, I also feel slightly offended that Taki is mid-tier because I believe she's upper-tier atleast.
The thing with Maxi is that you need to take more time to learn how to uses his moves than let's say Kilik's. Because of his...unappealing fighting-style and controls, people often choose a easier-to-use character. That's why their eyes are rolling when you win because they can hardly imagine that Maxi could do such things.
I had the same thing about Hilde, I did not thought that she would be top-tier because I couldn't use her properly. I saw some vids and it changed my opinion. Maybe people need to see more of Maxi aswel.

IRHari, welcome. I think you should go for Cervantes again.

Ive tried to bring up maxi on that list a few times in this thread and everytime all i get is shot down instead of intelliegent conversation on why everyone thinks hes low tier. i get "hes button masher friendly" etc...If hes low then fine, but i have no compelling evidence to convince me to change my main. I have however come up with a worthy secondary character, but all the maxi bashing is ridiculous!!

 

[Tiamat]

Reffy: go to web theater and watch some of Ceirnian's matches with Hilde from the recent northern CA tournament

 

[Dullyanna]

Hey everybody,
I'm new to the forums, as you can tell. I just bought SC4 for PS3, and I was wondering who might be good to main. I was pretty good in SC2 as Voldo and Cervantes (on GCN). I was wondering if theyre easy to pick up or if theyve changed a lot since then. Who would you recommend?
Also, I'm still getting used to the PS3 controller, as I'm used to playing Soul calibur on the gamecube controller. Do most of you keep it on default controls? Please let me know what the most comfortable button config might be.
Also my PSN ID is IRHari, and I'd like to play some people to test out whatever char people recommend for me. I feel like you only get better when you play other people as opposed to the computer, since the computer tends to use all moves in a characters repertoire, and of course only a few of them are viable (i.e. safe). I appreciate any responses!

Voldo has been changed a lot (He's definitely better for it, but former players may be turned off). Cervy's moveset has been changed somewhat, but he still has much of his old stuff as well (The most obvious difference is that he uses his gun outside of attack throws). The only ones I can't recommend for beginners are Zasalamel, Rock, and maybe Hilde (She's rather unorthodox).

The default controls are alright (Especially for learning Critical Finishers), but you might want to bind B+G, B+K, and A+K to the shoulder buttons.

It should be noted that even the unsafe moves have their uses, and they're sometimes even essential to a character's repertoire. A good example is Cervantes' aB, which is -18 on block (A free launcher for your opponent, usually), but it's very fast at i13, meaning you can punish a lot of blocked moves with it.

 

[Uber1337]

Anyone that really thinks Maxi is low tier needs to get online and play against me. He is mid tier at the very least IMHO. Maxi has one of the meanest lock-down games when hes used right. He can put you into a lot of 50/50 mix-ups that end with Maxi in frame advantage if blocked. People just haven't seen how effective he can be yet. just wait (or play me online and see now).

 

[IRHari]

im not sure who he played, nor what characters he played against. I do know that the particular tourney he was in was for NEC in december. So it wasnt at someones house or nothing. As far as skill level compared to his, im sure they had to be at least equal!! I agree talim doesnt give me to much trouble either but........My point of that whole post was, The "tier list" that has come up on this particular thread is somewhat flawed. Talim bottom tier? Maxi low mid tier? Zas low as well? Whos making this list up? I do some little competitions at various peoples house around San diego. Every single time I pick maxi, I see eyes rolling, snickers coming from behind me etc. But When I whop the shit out of them, they have trouble picking jaws up off the floor.

I guess maybe Im so offended that my beloved maxi is low on this alleged list. Thats probablly because He hasnt been represented at tourneys the right way or enough at all. IMO this list doesnt mean shit till this game has been out longer. Im just tired of all the maxi bashing! I believe that any character has a defense and offense against any other character. Im not looking to argue with anyone, I dont want to get anyones panties in a twist, yall can think im just a retarded loser...i dont care. This is just my opinion

I think the key here Dave is the word 'consistency'. For example, (i hate to bring it up AGAIN), in Brawl, characters like Meta Knight and Snake are top tier because they are consistently winning tournaments. Even if the Talim winning a tourny incident wasn't isolated, she still needs to consistently be placing high for people to decide she's viable and has a lot of potential.

Voldo has been changed a lot (He's definitely better for it, but former players may be turned off). Cervy's moveset has been changed somewhat, but he still has much of his old stuff as well (The most obvious difference is that he uses his gun outside of attack throws). The only ones I can't recommend for beginners are Zasalamel, Rock, and maybe Hilde (She's rather unorthodox).

The default controls are alright (Especially for learning Critical Finishers), but you might want to bind B+G, B+K, and A+K to the shoulder buttons.

It should be noted that even the unsafe moves have their uses, and they're sometimes even essential to a character's repertoire. A good example is Cervantes' aB, which is -18 on block (A free launcher for your opponent, usually), but it's very fast at i13, meaning you can punish a lot of blocked moves with it.

Thanks for the response Dully! I also don't see Yoshi (even though he seems to be top tier) worth recommending to newbies like me just because he was (and I'm assuming still is) very complicated to learn.

Anyone want to add me (PSN ID: IRHari) to help me practice a little with Cervy & Voldo?