1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Yawn! I can do this too...easy.
S
Algol, Hilde, Kilik, Amy
AA
Cassandra, Sophitia, Cervantes, Astaroth, Ivy, Setsuka
A
Yoshie, Lizzy, Mitsu, Sieg, Voldo,Taki, Nightmare, Apprentice
B
Vader, Zasalamel, Raphael, Yun, Maxi, Rock, Talim
C
Seong Mina, Yoda, Tira
 
KingAce said:
Yawn! I can do this too...easy.
S
*Hilde*, Kilik, Voldo, Algol

AA
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy

A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki

B
Astaroth, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice

C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim

D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel

Short Bus
Yoda
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I fix'd it, yay.
 
Tiamat: Yeah, I meant more along the lines of an even fight there. I admit I am still rather new to SC in general (have literally never played 3), so I appreciate the info. It's just that taking away the throws means Setsuka has almost no viable mixup, and it's hard for me to imagine how someone could have the advantage without that.

But then, I haven't successfully stepped a bullrush yet and didn't even know you could get that much damage from it, so that would explain a lot.
 
StrayDogStrut said:
I like noface's list, except ivy is maybe a little bit higher, and taki lower.
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Nobody's going to deny that Ivy has a superior spacing game and a superior throw game to Taki, but Ivy is so miserably unsafe and it's hard to force mixups with her unless you're in sword. I simply believe Taki's risk/reward is superior as is her punishing and her mixups. Just my opinion. Ivy might be B+ tier, even though it doesn't exist in my example. She seems like she might be better than B tier, but not quite A tier material.
 
Tiamat said:
wow. AA tier. are you serious?
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You question my Astaroth placement? You must'n dare, I tell thee.

honestly how do you guys even go about this, Pretty much it's

Top
(bubbly) Algol, (uncaged) Hilde
Mid
These guys& caged Hilde + Algol with no soap
Bottom
Seong mina, Yoda.
 
rashreflection said:
Tiamat: Yeah, I meant more along the lines of an even fight there. I admit I am still rather new to SC in general (have literally never played 3), so I appreciate the info. It's just that taking away the throws means Setsuka has almost no viable mixup, and it's hard for me to imagine how someone could have the advantage without that.

But then, I haven't successfully stepped a bullrush yet and didn't even know you could get that much damage from it, so that would explain a lot.
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I'm playing some theory fighter by assuming setsuka can step bullrush easily, so I'll have to double check that for myself. I haven't had any trouble stepping it with the characters I tend to use (other than Algol of course.) Bullrush whiff is pretty bad so setsuka could easily B+K for 90 damage (over 1/3 life) for free every time he misses it. so asta can bullrush you for trying to throw him yeah, but bullrush damage is just sad compared to her countermeasure (Step into B+K whiff punish). I will have to double check that she can step bullrush decently though, or the whole strategy is shot lol
 
S
*Hilde*, Kilik, Voldo, Algol

AA
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy

A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki

B
Astaroth, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice

C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim

D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel

Short Bus
Yoda

Any other critiques of my tier list? I can't see anything wrong with it.
 
Nofacekill3r said:
S
*Hilde*, Kilik, Voldo, Algol

AA
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy

A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki

B
Astaroth, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice

C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim

D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel

Short Bus
Yoda

Any other critiques of my tier list? I can't see anything wrong with it.
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Would pretty much agree with this, except Yoshi/Setsuka should be S IMO.
 
vane505 said:
Would pretty much agree with this, except Yoshi/Setsuka should be S IMO.
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Why would you say that? They have to work much harder for the same amount of damage as Voldo, they have nowhere near the same soul crush game. They have inferior keepout when compared to Hilde, Kilik, and Algol. I don't think I even have to mention things like Hilde ring outs, Asura dance, and bubbles.

Honestly I think characters in the S-tier have qualities that give them a unique advantage against the rest of the class that is really overpowering in most cases. Voldo has insane mixups, damage, and Soul Gauge damage. You basically can't guess right against this guy. Make one mistake against Hilde and it's game over. Kilik has the ability to keep his opponent away from him with safe pokes like WR B while simultaneously limiting mixup potential against him because he has Asura dance. Algol has great pokes and an unmatched control game with bubbles.

Yoshi / Setsuka maybe have a couple of these qualities, but overall it seems like they have to work alot harder to achieve the same results, especially when compared to Hilde or Voldo.
 
tribaL said:
i still don't see why people get a hard-on for setsuka...err, in terms of tiers. she's not top tier, honestly.
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Setsuka has pretty much the damage potential of Cervantes but with alot more safety. Anyway, I still don't think she is as powerful as say, Voldo. She puts in twice the effort for the same amount of damage and less soul gauge damage potential. She also has quite a bit less evasiveness overall. So yeah, I really don't get why people think she's the cream of the crop.
 
In a game where not everybody can 1/3 life combos anymore.
The few that still can should be top tier.
I dunno. Makes sense to me. =/
Also the few that can punish from standing at i11. From crouch at i12. A knockdown at i14. Silly damages from i17 and on should be considered too.
BUT if everybody can do all of this. Yeah, she's definitely not up there.
 
Dreamkiller said:
In a game where not everybody can 1/3 life combos anymore.
The few that still can should be top tier.
I dunno. Makes sense to me. =/
Also the few that can punish from standing at i11. From crouch at i12. A knockdown at i14. Silly damages from i17 and on should be considered too.
BUT if everybody can do all of this. Yeah, she's definitely not up there.
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Asta should be up there somewhere.
His worst match-ups are Algol and Amy.
 
Theory-time:

Setsuka:
1B:B is safe, fast, damaging, OK range, very solid mid that combo into alot of damage.

33B is safe, fast, great range and good damage. ROs.

Umbrella great punisher that can RO and be done from FC.

Very damaging throws. 214B+G does insane damage and ROs.

Oki-game is great. A+K B for hitting people on ground. 33B can hit them on range and so on. Can RO grounded opponents.

Overall great RO-game.


Yoshi:
iMCF. So good. ~70 damage on CH hit. Yoshi-players need to be able to bait for this. i9 hit. Safe.

Great combos (iMCF-combos, 3B (his worst launcher IMO, too risky), 66B, CH 33B, flee (great frames on block)

Great mixups (Although stances (maybe except flee?) can be predicted by players who know him, his throws makes him dangerous close-up. He also has lows thats very hard to block on reaction, but they are very unsafe).

AWESOME throws (Command-throw does great damage. B+G4 does life-leech for 29 damage and something like 42 in total when followed with a K. Great throw range).

Great wall-game.

Good Oki.


You can make the list much longer for both characters. Setsuka has great combo-damage and her most damaging moves are completely safe, and her strange stepping forward/backward (don't know the name) is good for evasion. Her step is so-so and throw-range not to great. Would say she's the worst of top or best of the tier-section below.

Yoshi is great for breaking out of pressure with his iMCF, and he has great tools for baiting for iMCH CH like 6A. Does good damage, and does good damage. Great mixup-game. Good RO-game. Many "tools", like 4A+B,B,B etc., life leech and more. Don't know what his weakness would be... somewhat stepable maybe?

EDIT: BTW, I think Hilde has her own tier.
 
Nofacekill3r: Good job. Best tier list, IMO.

Only thing I don't see is Vader in C. Is he really that much better than Zasalamel?

Anyway, QFT here. . .

Nofacekill3r said:
Would pretty much agree with this, except Yoshi/Setsuka should be S IMO.
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Why would you say that? They have to work much harder for the same amount of damage as Voldo, they have nowhere near the same soul crush game. They have inferior keepout when compared to Hilde, Kilik, and Algol. I don't think I even have to mention things like Hilde ring outs, Asura dance, and bubbles.

Honestly I think characters in the S-tier have qualities that give them a unique advantage against the rest of the class that is really overpowering in most cases. Voldo has insane mixups, damage, and Soul Gauge damage. You basically can't guess right against this guy. Make one mistake against Hilde and it's game over. Kilik has the ability to keep his opponent away from him with safe pokes like WR B while simultaneously limiting mixup potential against him because he has Asura dance. Algol has great pokes and an unmatched control game with bubbles.

Yoshi / Setsuka maybe have a couple of these qualities, but overall it seems like they have to work alot harder to achieve the same results, especially when compared to Hilde or Voldo.
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I also don't think those two are in the same league as Algol, Hilde, Voldo, and Kilik. Close but not quite.
 
Setsuka's lows suck, she's freaking easy to read and adapt to.

Zasalamel and rock, aren't in the same league as Seong Mina.
 
Tiamat said:
I'm playing some theory fighter by assuming setsuka can step bullrush easily, so I'll have to double check that for myself. I haven't had any trouble stepping it with the characters I tend to use (other than Algol of course.) Bullrush whiff is pretty bad so setsuka could easily B+K for 90 damage (over 1/3 life) for free every time he misses it. so asta can bullrush you for trying to throw him yeah, but bullrush damage is just sad compared to her countermeasure (Step into B+K whiff punish). I will have to double check that she can step bullrush decently though, or the whole strategy is shot lol
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All of this makes sense, for sure, but the big problem with Sets' throws isn't even bullrush. He can tech A+G to avoid the umbrella at the end, and command grab into umbrella is ridiculous on him - you have to do the JF verson with perfect timing, and even then it randomly won't work like half the time. I know a number of characters can do that to A+G, but Asta is the only one who causes the latter problem.
 
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