Natsu match-up and anti-character general discussion thread

UnseenWombat said:
You gotta JG those guard break moves like RO A[K], and the other overhead one. IDK what it is, but he gets a guaranteed Bruce Lee backfist even on guard.
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LI (B)
The problem with JGing those moves is that he can stop charging and just throw them out whenever he wants (the point of no return is pretty darn late), so it's best to step LI B (has to be to a specific direction otherwise he'll step with you and track, I forget which side you have to go to though) and interrupt RO A(K), preferably with a TC move during the A. You might even be able to sneak a iWR K in there for a free counter hit, though I haven't tested so I'm not sure.
 
I've had a bit better luck with the Maxi match-up since I've become more familiar with his stance transitions, and noticing that AA & A:6 can mess him up nicely. However, I've just discovered a worse matchup for Natsu that is giving me a bitch of a time, the Voldo matchup.

How do you deal with this freak? It feels like I have to tailor my moveset to his shenanigans and just try to sneak in a bomb or an A+B for example. Anyone else find this matchup abnormally frustrating for Natsu? On the other hand again, my Nightmare seems to handle him well thanks to his great verticals, okizeme and spacing tools. But I really think that Natsu can take him. Any tips will be immensely appreciated.
 
learn what to punish on block, he's pretty unsafe. JG 3BB and 66B BE. learn how to deal with DR stance. general rule of thumb when he is in BT is that 3K is your friend. it deals with the auto GI, the SS throws and is decently fast.
 
Thanks for the tips! To deal with DR I usually use 2B, 1K or use STK to get behind him. If there's space, I crush his ass with 8A+B. The most common move from that stance tends to be DR A, the slow ground sweep followed by the DR B BE. When he's in BS, I tend to use A+B since Voldo players seem to love BS 2A. I guess that BS's weakness is that Voldo really doesn't want to block in it or he loses his advantage and has to start over.

My weakness seems to be Voldos that space very well and exploit Natsu's lack of range, and make devious use of MC. His mixup and evasive options are incredible. Natsu can't bully him like Nightmare can.
 
I have trouble dealing with anyone who has good range on their weapon. Specifically Nightmare, Sigfried, Xiba and Ivy. It seems others here have trouble with the N/S match-up but as the other two get no mention, I was wondering: Are there any specific tips when it comes to closing the distance gap so you can punish more and improve your own offensive options?
 
igniz13 said:
I have trouble dealing with anyone who has good range on their weapon. Specifically Nightmare, Sigfried, Xiba and Ivy. It seems others here have trouble with the N/S match-up but as the other two get no mention, I was wondering: Are there any specific tips when it comes to closing the distance gap so you can punish more and improve your own offensive options?
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Dealing with Nightmare or Siegfried isn't too bad since these characters are significantly slower than Natsu and fairly unsafe. Using Windrolls, Distorted Breezes, 66K's, 66AB's and A+B's can help close the distance on them. WR's and DB's can roll under their horizontals to effectively get in their faces. When you're in their faces, you're in control. Throw them, 6KA them, 6B them, AAB/AA6 them, PO B them, BB them, or even 4A them for example. If you have some space, you can apply some pressure with 99, 66 or 33B.

NM & Sieg rely on good spacing to maintain offense and control. For these 2, overall, stay in close, try to TC their horizontal highs (their choice of midrange, mid horizontals is limited.), sidestep their very dangerous verticals and either pressure the hell out of them or make them throw out something that you can whiff or block punish.

Ivy's a bit of a different case because Natsu's goal is the same as NM or Seig: stay in close and pressure the shit out of her, however she can cover her ass very well with 214B and 3B. The former is an awesome move: it's quick, sidesteps to the right, tech-crouches and is a multi-hit vertical. 3B is a quick, sidestepping to the right, launcher. Similar to NM or Seig, Ivy hates when people get in her face. The key for Natsu however is to stay at a distance where the Ivy player feels "comfortable" throwing out her spacing moves (i.e. 6A, 4A, 6B~2/8, 6B+K, 6A+B*, 11A, 1A, etc.), then pounce on her after a block or whiff. If you rush her, the only moves she'll try and do is, yup... , 214B or 3B. Anticipate these moves and attack accordingly. Don't forget to block 1K on reaction, another Ivy favourite.

As for Xiba, another mid-range fighter, you guessed it, stay in close and pressure. If you stay in close, all he'll really try is 6B~K or AAK, you could punish both with an A:6 or AA, but I usually use the advantage for a mid/throw mix-up. bK or 3BKK are other moves to watch out for in close. To close the distance on Xiba, play a bit of the patience mind-game with him. Try to bait out 66BBB (usually 66BB), 4B, or 6A+B for example if possible. Smarter Xiba's will likely try 22/88AA, but after you block Xiba's midrange options, you can usually close in quickly. If you sense a 1A or 33AA, A+B him to smack his hungry ass to the ground. Oki quickly to beat out GR A+B (eg. 1K, 2B, 8A+B or 4A+B even), then stay on him. Despite his good mix-ups, Xiba doesn't have that many quick moves. You'll see 6B~ 90% of the time usually when in close.

As for spacing, I'm working on Astaroth right now. He's probably Natsu's toughest ranged opponent. If you botch anything, you're screwed.
 
ive got a bunch of anti Ivy stuff coming tomorrow. basically 66K and 3A are really good in this matchup.
 
so basically ivy's frame data is such that most things that are safe are either -6 or -8. if you sniff out a 3B or 214B after blocking one of these a 3A or 6B will beat out both options for CH. the really interesting part is that 3A hits them in the back and puts them in a 50/50 where they eat a backthrow if they just hold g. so either duck to avoid the throw or eat a mid. 3A on CH is like 36 damage so with the back throw or a 66B/3B you can get over 100 damage on this.

6B also hits in the back and allows a side throw if they hold G. same concept as the above.

66K punishes a ton of her moves on block even with pushout. you can JG some of her other safe stuff like B+K or 44B+KB

if you bait a JG most of her single hit pokes are A:6able.


if she goes for 22BBB you can interrupt the 2nd hit with a CH AAB, even better you can trade with the 2nd hit with a 4B CH into full 3KKK combo.

if she tries FC 1B to reverse RO and you block it, you can A:6 her out of the ring.

i think that was about it, if i go over my notes and see anything else i'll post up.
 
With Astaroth, don't let him move. Natsu has moves that will almost literally beat out all of his moves. FC A is what, i10? Astaroth has nothing to deal with that. His best option would be the i13 crouch grabs... Which that can't deal with her speed and unpredictability. Easiest move to get in with is 66k. Fucking thing TC's, TJ's, and is pretty damn fast. Unless you're dealing with the best Astaroth in the world (Xeph stated dropping him so there he goes) then getting in on his slow ass is easy. His scariest pokes? 4b that is i16 and does a WONDERFUL... 20 damage. Next comes the almighty 4k which does... Drum roll please... 16 damage at i15. Your biggest fear? 22_88b which is laughable if you know how to JG. Asty should be a no brainer as long as you know how to play against him. 44a is horrible on whiff, 44b is horrible on whiff, 22_88b... You get my point. Play smart, know your JG's. Asty really is a chump, make sure he knows it.
 
I'm fucking free to the xiba matchup...... People can space me the fuck out too easily with him too the point where i cant get anyway near xiba and i end up being the one running away from him
 
Donutman said:
I'm fucking free to the xiba matchup...... People can space me the fuck out too easily with him too the point where i cant get anyway near xiba and i end up being the one running away from him
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Lol, Natsu destroys Xiba. She's one of his worst matchups.
 
Donutman said:
I'm fucking free to the xiba matchup...... People can space me the fuck out too easily with him too the point where i cant get anyway near xiba and i end up being the one running away from him
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There is a reason Natsu says "You are SO gunna regret this" to him. Stay in his face and frame trap him. He can only do 6A or 6B. After he does a spacing move, block then rush in on him.
 
Donutman said:
I'm fucking free to the xiba matchup...... People can space me the fuck out too easily with him too the point where i cant get anyway near xiba and i end up being the one running away from him
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First Off, when you have the advantage don't give it away.
A little Problem Natsu has is, even when she's at advantage, the opponent can easily avoid many moves via backstep or backstep-attacks,
even attacks which seem to have good range like KK, 3KK, 6AK and 66AB can often whiff.
I don't know how good Xiba's backstep is but you can use the dummy to simulate situations when you have advantage.
Set Xiba to:
1st action normal
2nd action backstep or backstep attack or other evasive action you that annoys you.

Now hit him with anything, he will try to evade, then you can test what will stop him.
Natsu's best moves for stopping shit like that are IMO:

2bA or 4a+bA, is i7, often hits before the evasion activates.
AA to a lesser degree.
6A+B, also quite fast, good range but watch out, very linear, can he even punish it?.
66K, fast, best range, unsafe to Xiba's 3bK or whatever shoulder ram though.
A+B also very good range and tracking, a bit slower
WS B4A+B
4A+B, dat damage, made safe by Kuzukiri Cancel.

not as good but still worthwhile:
6B
66B, range is still not bad and it can be quite spammable because of variable recovery and BE
4A, surprisingly good range
WS K
33_99B and 22_88B, much slower because of 8WR

It also depends on which attacks you hit him with to gain an advantage.
6B and 6A+B have huge pushback so it's easy to whiff afterwards.
While AA6 will bring you very close to the opponent, at a small disadvantage though.

All of the above is only to supress backstep, i remind you.
It can also be applied to block situations but you have to hit the lab to see when and how you can attack xiba, which moves have mad pushback etc.
The Key is not to whiff

When your main problem is how to even get close to him like you posted:

Agility is actually one of Natsu's main strengths.

You can use Wind Roll, Stalker and their side variations to get close.
But i would favor to guard after those,
because you are at disadvantage unless you dodge an attack (make the opponent whiff).
And remember that his tracking stuff can beat you out of those evasive moves, especially Wind Roll. It depends a lot on timing.

Another thing is to just step ahead and guard his crap.
Natsu's sidestep is also good but front step can be cancelled earlier to guard.
I think his guard damage is not above average, and i wouldn't be too afraid of guard burst, this is not SCIV where they can instakill you unless you're in a bad situation.

And if you are unsure to defend, maybe step up your defense against his lows, and throw breaking (especially after you have stalkered close to him).

Also, if he abuses pushback attacks like 4B maybe try to Just Guard it? A bit dangerous but JG negates pushback.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks, I'll try these when i can because i am unable to at this moment.
But as far as JGing pushback attacks like 4B, i am pretty bad at JGing. Can GIing be as effective as an alternative or should i just try to step up my JGing ability?
 
I think JG is, especially for Natsu, a viable tool.
For the above use to avoid pushback, and compensate for the short range of some of her punishers.
And because Natsu can exploit JG nicely with her fast punishers.
I think even most AAs and BBs become unsafe to A:6 on JG.

It has it's drawbacks:
Some moves are near impossible to JG, like Natsu's own AAB, or Xiba's "Asura Dance dunno whatsitcalled" because he hops around you during that and you can't JG while back turned.

And my problem is i sometimes get predictable with it, and eat quick lows, throws or slightly delayed attacks.

But if your opponent is predictable with guard-safe or pushback attacks, you can often punish severely.
 
Slade said:
You can, actually.
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Really? Didn't know that.
I tried to JG second and third hit of Xiba's 6AK BE, can't JG the second hit while he hits me in the back.
I tried to JG second and third hit of Xiba's 6BK BE, can JG the second hit, leaves me BT, can't JG the third hit while he hits me in the back.
When i realign myself with :6: before the JG then i can JG it no problem (just a bit impractical for daily use).

Is there a trick to do BT JG?
Or am i just too stupid?
I really tried.
Can you JG the second hit of Xiba's 6AK BE? Without realigning?
Or anything from natsu, after getting hit by her 3A on normal hit?
If you can, how do you do it?

EDIT @ Donutman: Was testing a bit of punishment and Xiba's 4B is unsafe to 4A+B (!) on JG.
So it can really be worth the risk, although i think it's hard to JG when the opponent is not predictable. Might need some practice.
 
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