Gamegenie222
[10] Knight
Dude if Raph in SC3 was that bad I would of played more Zasalmel and Lizardman which is a shame cause SC3 Raph is my favorite version costume wise and such.
Raphael General Discussion / Q&A
- Thread starter WuHT
- Start date
Yeah I kind of like him the way you to do too. Did you know he was buffed from SC3 console to SC3 Arcade Edition? He had weaknesses but was so-so imo in SC3. Raph in each game had different strengths but the same recurring weakness such as linearity, lack of effective horizontals, vulnerability to whiff punishment, lack of tracking, etc. There were new big problems such as SC4 Raph's outclassed/weak verticals, for example. SCV is definitely the best one so far, but we need to goad namco to restore his glory again before his time is up.
Gamegenie222
[10] Knight
Another reason to find a SC3AE cabinet and play it I suppose.
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
Are you sure SC3 Raph 4A CH crumple led to A+BA? You sure about that?
I don't recall any SC2 Raph players picking up 3 and not being as critical as I am about SC3 Raph. He was riddled with holes and couldn't handle a lot of things. Having to buffer the 33B made his 33B needlessly slow (it was slow as shit IIRC) for a launcher and IIRC it still needed CH to get real damage. I remember most of his damage coming off of 22K set ups..... out side of odd ball combos or set ups.
4 Prep stances was nice because they served different purposes, and at the very least the opp had to remember which stance Raph was going into, and a few combos could come out of Prep in 2 (236A+B CH 66B~P3A~other stuff depending on air control). Namco fixed that for Raph opp. He lost PIV which was bad and basically got little in return for it. 66B also slammed instead of juggled which took out some combobility too.
About the AE leading to Prep combos, you mean the same hop~B~PC B combos he also had in 2? I felt making the AE's vector specific instead of height specific was a significant detriment to him and attempting to multi AE gave your opp some incredible anti Raph mind games and much of the time I do seem to recall AE K being the only really likely to hit AE move after many AE's.
Having WS A be a step killer from crouch didn't matter cuz the move was slow as balls. Anything that made Raph crouch outside of WS K range made him incredibly vulnerable as many side step moves would evade the WS B/FC3B and beat out the A. The way he is now is far superior (notice he basically has his SC2 WS list sans console WS A+B)
Raph in each game has suffered the same problems, he's low damage and too vulnerable to TC (not step). Now he's the best he's ever been cuz they mostly fixed the low damage issues and some other problems (AA not being NC). In 3 though I think it was both Gojira and I who determined that the only thing Raph could really do was run backwards BBing. Of course that's an exaggeration but Raph's list of viable tactics in high level play was laughable.
You'd be the only one. Raph did get some nice buffs in AE but by the time they rushed it out SC3 had cause somewhat irreparable damage to the scene and no one cared even if you had an SC3 machine nearby.
Gamegenie222
[10] Knight
Wow thanks Namco :(
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
They dropped the ball on SC3 worse than any other game I can think of period, maybe Duke Nukem Forever comes close. I hope lots of people got fired over it.
Gamegenie222
[10] Knight
IDK man SC3 was fun despite the BS in it cause they said fuck balance but other than that Tekken 4 is just as even.
piggy
RIP Team Edward
SC3 was shit.
SC2 Raph was underrated. He had good frame advantage on good long-range moves (6B, 2K, WR B ie) and could RO like a beast. It is hard to compare though because the game mechanics are really different in general between then and now.
SC2 Raph was underrated. He had good frame advantage on good long-range moves (6B, 2K, WR B ie) and could RO like a beast. It is hard to compare though because the game mechanics are really different in general between then and now.
I am 100% positive. Look here around 0:52.
Note that some of these are not guaranteed, just juggles and other stuff. Enjoy the video as it might bring back nice memories.
This is certainly not the the time to talk about SC6 Raph wishes but I see what you're saying. Lol so many complained about 4 Preps being too burdensome to memorize. Hmmm...
If Raph evaded a low horizontal or vertical he hops and A+K A(B)B and (B)B were guaranteed combos. A+K K after evading low slash wasn't very good at all. If he dodged all other verticals (B+K) or mid horizontals (A+K), he entered his VE animation, and the same VE attacks became available (VE (B)B was NC 60 dmg). If he dodged a high horizontal, he entered SE animation, with A+K B(B) NC and A+K A (SC4 SE alpha A) having NH stun, guaranteeing a 6BBB and other moves.
Thanks for correcting me. I almost forgot about Raph being destroyed by TCs. AA was already NC in SC4 btw. His low damage was always relative to other characters, not to the game though.
PS: All this stuff was in the past lol. SCV Raph is the best so far, but still could be AND deserves to be better. Come on namco, another push for Raph please!!
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
While that combo vid was indeed flashy you couldn't land most of those combos in most circumstances. Even that 4A CH combo was point blank and seemingly an off axis hit to boot. I just remember it not hitting half as well as it could in 2, you did manage to correct me so good job. As of now the only buff I really want for SCV Raph is to return the CH on 4A. Would help with his step game tremendously and justify it being unsafe. Maybe add his zorro laser light show back in too, that was cool.
Everything you said about AE's I know. I was just asking for clarification on your part. AE hop K should have been a jump kick. Waiting until he landed before kicking wrecked the whole point of the move. I used to get GIed sometimes when that would happen.
It doesn't matter tho'. SC3 is dead. It can't hurt us any longer. The shadow of it's suck still haunts even SCV but it's not too bad anymore.
Everything you said about AE's I know. I was just asking for clarification on your part. AE hop K should have been a jump kick. Waiting until he landed before kicking wrecked the whole point of the move. I used to get GIed sometimes when that would happen.
It doesn't matter tho'. SC3 is dead. It can't hurt us any longer. The shadow of it's suck still haunts even SCV but it's not too bad anymore.
You just have to be in range after the 4A stuns to land A+BA but you're right that it did hit better in 2. When I played SC3, it worked like 70% of the time. Yeah sorry for the misunderstanding of the AEs earlier. Totally agree with the 4A stun and cranial scraper coming back. There are certainly other buffs I would like, especially involving Prep and autoevade but we'll have to wait a couple years lol.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Agreed with a lot being said. However, this is a major design oversight. With no ground hitting VE moves, what is the point of going SC3's 4(B) if you risk losing your CH combo ? They're on the ground and you're in VE with no way to stop them from rolling.
SC4's 22(B) version at least had a JF NH so you could try it (or force people to attempt to punish you with horizontals which were generally weaker, shorter ranged, and if they use a slow one you could attempt a 4(B) combo for reverse mixup.
SC5's 22B was the best of both worlds, by having a NH combo without going into stance. I still (to this day) input it as 22(B) due to old habits. Apparantly it was too strong so the patch saw the end to the reign of Raph's best non-stance move in SC5.
As a side note: Does anyone feel that SC3's 214B looks different than SC4's 44B ? They're both cranial scrapers but the first attack actually looks re-animated.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Totally feel you there, man ^_^
Good question. I never had a habit of holding 4B in SC3 since I knew 4(B) was risky and didn't guarantee anything. Once I saw the KND, I immediately let of go of 4B and then went for a 1K or 1BB.
You are correct!!! The Prep parry animations are the same but Raph swings his sword differently in SC3 and SC4. In SC3, Raph swung his sword all the way behind his head, took huge lunge forward and chopped it downward onto his opponent from his left side while in SC4, he just swings it over his right side with a smaller amount of foot work before doing his attack throw. Wow I can't believe I never noticed that.
Evil_Zutus
[09] Warrior
Raph's biggest flaw is his failure to stuff QS tech crouches.
eg Pyrrha's 22K and 22BAK
Raph lacks a universal answer to these kind of moves. it's very counter intuitive to react with 4B against tc highs when you notice a step.
How do you guys deal with these kind of moves? More 2K?
I feel like a lot of his moves work only sometimes, in the end due to raph's inferior damage, i'll often lose to players who like to abuse these kinds of moves.
In future instalments I'd like 33A to be 3A.
8A+B should be mid mid and leading to prep BB combo on NH ^^
eg Pyrrha's 22K and 22BAK
Raph lacks a universal answer to these kind of moves. it's very counter intuitive to react with 4B against tc highs when you notice a step.
How do you guys deal with these kind of moves? More 2K?
I feel like a lot of his moves work only sometimes, in the end due to raph's inferior damage, i'll often lose to players who like to abuse these kinds of moves.
In future instalments I'd like 33A to be 3A.
8A+B should be mid mid and leading to prep BB combo on NH ^^
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
This guy knows what's up!
Patience is all you really have. Attempt to out space the move with footwork or play the post block mind game. I don't know the frames on all 8wr tc'es but I imagine they have to give enough negative frames that your opp has to block a mix up from you of some kind or block it and just get the hell away for a moment.
Lousy advice I know but it's about all I can give. 33A used to be 3A but I'd take 3A being the gut punch rather than the mid swipe any day of the week. Now if 22K hit mid...................... a girl can dream can't she?
Very good post man. Any Raph will experience these problems. As Bojack said, all you can really do is try to stay out of the range of those moves. You could try to use 33A to stop step/pushback on block at tip range when you feel it is safe to do so. Pyrrha's QS TC moves are completely safe too (facepalm). 2K could work but Raph doesn't really have any longer range lows or mids to stuff QS TC move (thanks for the post again as it gives me more ideas for Raph improvements in the future).
About 33A/3A, Bojack is right that 33A was 3A in SC2 but the current 3A should stay imo since it serves as a safe "get out of my face" move and can wall combo. If Raph does need a good horizontal mid from neutral, then his 6AB should become the mid mid SC2 Prep I,II 6AB.
I had this thought for a while. 22K roundhouse should be removed and replaced with Prep K, completely tracking to both sides with RO potential. (Get into more details when SC6 comes around).
youngfox
[10] Knight
With those two specific TCs well the first one is high so if you sniff it out then you can 4b it for great damage and the 2nd is pretty damn unsafe, so it a gamble on their end as well. If you are look for general counters then what i like to do when im am up close to an opponent is throw out a lot of 3As to check their responses to being at disadvantage. once you know they like to step in to TC then you can 22B them cuz stepping and doing a move enlarges your hit box alot of the time in this game. for more generic answers you have 11k and 44ab as options depending on your distance from the opponent.
Evil_Zutus
[09] Warrior
Sometimes I wonder if Namco had really considered the consequences of removing 8wayrun moves from neutral. I wouldn't mind having to input 33A like it was in the previous soul caliburs. But with the stepping delay 33A is just useless.
No it isn't. Have you realized how good 33A spaces on block at tip range?? Against short range characters, they can't punish it. If it hits, Raph is at +2. It's not the greatest move since it does piss-weak damage and has shorter range than Raph's other moves, but it's a mid horizontal step killer and spacing tool. The only other mid horizontal is his 44AB which is slow as hell.