Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

Just something I wanted to share. Prep K is proving to be very useful at countering anti prep options and making the opponent hesitate before reacting to prep. I used to use it only if I predicted opponent would step, now that I'm using it more often despite unsafeness my prep game got scarier
 
i actually love prep k and never really had the whiffing issues others have reported. cool things on successful CH prep k is you can tap 6 and land a full A+BA. 11k tech traps and combos for gd damage but something weird i was messing with is that 2 B+K or 8B+K tech traps for insanely gd damage. i am actually messing around to see if this works on ne other set ups
 
it would make sense theyd be great tech traps since they are kinda limited in other applications. Which would be great since they are hard to whiff punish and offer great rewards for guessing correctly. Zanaken do you have ne gd tech trap set ups with the needles, im looking to incorporate em more
 
6B+K.
Mid.
i19.
20 damage.
Clean Hits for 25 damage.
-9 on guard.
+1 on hit.
STN on counter hit that knocks down and guarantees 2B.
Has some weird tech traps I should probably go look for.
Breaks guard in 14.
Says "Pathetic" whenever you use it.

Why aren't you using Cantarella Needle?
 
lol cuz i rather use 3B in most situations where i may use 6B+K. now using 2 or 8 B+K for tech traps is something im more than happy to use. i just need more then one set up
 
Heaton said:
6B+K.
Mid.
i19.
20 damage.
Clean Hits for 25 damage.
-9 on guard.
+1 on hit.
STN on counter hit that knocks down and guarantees 2B.
Has some weird tech traps I should probably go look for.
Breaks guard in 14.
Says "Pathetic" whenever you use it.

Why aren't you using Cantarella Needle?
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I was just gonna bring up this move. It's also a ok took to space and poke out a certain move cause of its hitbox.
 
Hey guys, this has prolly been gone over before but if you 33KBE vs. a jumping opponent, you launch them a bit higher and all of a sudden 3B and various other moves start to work. Also posting to combo disc.

Wait, never mind. Whut has locked it. Sad faced Bojack. :(
 
Real_Bojack said:
Hey guys, this has prolly been gone over before but if you 33KBE vs. a jumping opponent, you launch them a bit higher and all of a sudden 3B and various other moves start to work. Also posting to combo disc.

Wait, never mind. Whut has locked it. Sad faced Bojack. :(
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I locked it to keep posts there to a minimum (plus I can give people credit in this thread and the combo discussion thread) rather than deleting their posts in the official combo listing thread.

I was hoping this system would be the most streamlined, and I do regularly check on this forum anyways.

--
On 6B+K.
Objectively, the numbers look useable. The thing that cannot be quantified as easily are range, and the knockback on block which are generally moves that are important for Raphael to gauge as useful.

If we're just looking at the numbers (frames, damage, safety.. etc) 6b+K is not good enough that it stands out.

Its not fast enough to reliably score CHs. Its pretty short ranged (worse than 6K, single B) and the pushback on block isn't far enough so Raph can actually take advantage of the -9 unlike 66K.

I can't help but compare its usage against Raph's i16 (BB, 3B, 2B and 6K) so maybe someone can help me out here. It is 1 frame slower than 236B and I'm not sure the extra 3 frame safety on block is worth the huge range, NH knockdown and raw damage traded.
 
WuHT said:
I can't help but compare its usage against Raph's i16 (BB, 3B, 2B and 6K) so maybe someone can help me out here. It is 1 frame slower than 236B and I'm not sure the extra 3 frame safety on block is worth the huge range, NH knockdown and raw damage traded.
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I find it most helpful against Greeks, where you're inevitably going to wind up in their face at some point. 236B gets punished by them on block, which leads into their very annoying close range poking game, and that's not something you want to just "give" them for free. There's also the fact that a slight misalignment from either a movement input or one of their moves sends you flying past them, which can end in a stab or a launch - not a place you want to be.

Sooner or later you're going to end up point blank with your opponent, where Raphael's long and mid-range game become extremely risky and a less appealing option. Instead of panicking, throwing them out, and hoping for the best, try some of his close range pokes. 3A, 2A, 4K, 6B+K, and 44K are all very important parts of Raphael's close range game, and they all have a certain use for the situation. The face that 6B+K breaks in 14 and is safe is what really seals the deal for me - even on block, you're eating away at their guard gauge and they hardly even know it. 44K is good for this reason as well, and has the added bonus of having excellent TJ frames.

In a nutshell, that's why I like Cantarella Needle.
 
Heaton said:
I find it most helpful against Greeks, where you're inevitably going to wind up in their face at some point. 236B gets punished by them on block, which leads into their very annoying close range poking game, and that's not something you want to just "give" them for free. There's also the fact that a slight misalignment from either a movement input or one of their moves sends you flying past them, which can end in a stab or a launch - not a place you want to be.

Sooner or later you're going to end up point blank with your opponent, where Raphael's long and mid-range game become extremely risky and a less appealing option. Instead of panicking, throwing them out, and hoping for the best, try some of his close range pokes. 3A, 2A, 4K, 6B+K, and 44K are all very important parts of Raphael's close range game, and they all have a certain use for the situation. The face that 6B+K breaks in 14 and is safe is what really seals the deal for me - even on block, you're eating away at their guard gauge and they hardly even know it. 44K is good for this reason as well, and has the added bonus of having excellent TJ frames.

In a nutshell, that's why I like Cantarella Needle.
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Agree with almost everything you said. Appreciate the tips. However, didn't 44K get slightly nerfed?? Im not sure on which frame it TCs but I somehow feel 44K is not as good as it is it was in SC4. It KNDS people behind Raph, guarantees a BT 2B, and is safe nonetheless.

Edit: About the Canterella Needles: The SC4/5 version is short ranged, and more of a facepalm taunt rather than a forward or anti-step move. Side Cantarellas don't track step properly while 6B+K only stuns on CH...otherwise only +1. The SC3 version also facepalmed but had a long range 6B+K (about TWICE the range of modern 6B+K) which had godly pushback on block and NH stun; however side B+Ks only connected at specific angles to either side. BT B+K had full stun rather than SHK. The best feature of the SC3 canterellas was that neutral B+K dying any kind of off-axis situation would realign and stun the opponent. Side canterellas of both versions can land during wall combos, for example, for good damage, but not often. Like WuHT, I would be willing to trade safety if the directional B+Ks (can keep the modern animations) had NH stun leading to decent damage combos and tracked step better.
 
Heaton said:
6B+K stuff
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everything you described can be substituted by 6k which gives way more push back than 6B+K for having 3 extra frames of recovery. Its also great at closing rounds and i rather use it guess between a backstep or sidestep when my opponent blocks it. I think the usefulness of the needles is going to come down to the side versions and how we can apply them as tech traps. it already works off of CH prep k for amazing damage so we just need more set ups like that
 
I found out that the side cantarella needles beat some of maxi's stance moves like RO B (right outer stance) and LI B (left inner stance). LI B isn't too popular but RO B is one of Maxi's best stance moves, showing the Maxi player that you can punish his good stuff with equally rewarding moves will probably make him hesitate. Using side cantarella on RO stance brings risk reward to your side, because nothing on that stance can punish you too highly and if you read correctly you get awesome damage.

EDIT: for RO B, it only works if stance entry move is 6A
 
Reptile said:
I like the idea of a safe mid not weakened by guts in 6B+K. Will try to use it to close rounds.
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20 damage is unfortunately still scaled by guts. It has to be 21 or higher to be immune.
Heaton said:
236B gets punished by them on block, which leads into their very annoying close range poking game, and that's not something you want to just "give" them for free.
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This one depends. Patroklos in particular has a very short ranged FC A, and tip range or just good old weird axis issues can make Raph end up out of FC A punishment range. Not worth eating the 66B if he steps it though, so your point still stands.
 
back on 6B+K:

This move has properties like A+B in that Raph does not extend his hurtbox out very much, so against certain stance entries this move can shut down a lotta options.

For instance, after sieg 3(B), i'm sure everyone's thinking QS into 4(B). However, 6B+K seems to do a dandy job (but much less reward on hit) by outspeeding SCH B and SCH A but keeping raph out of range of SCH K.

3 moves i need to consider more, is A+BA, 6B+K and 44K outside of known combos. I pretty much never have a slot for these moves outside of A+BA combo enders.
 
WuHT said:
back on 6B+K:

This move has properties like A+B in that Raph does not extend his hurtbox out very much, so against certain stance entries this move can shut down a lotta options.

For instance, after sieg 3(B), i'm sure everyone's thinking QS into 4(B). However, 6B+K seems to do a dandy job (but much less reward on hit) by outspeeding SCH B and SCH A but keeping raph out of range of SCH K.

3 moves i need to consider more, is A+BA, 6B+K and 44K outside of known combos. I pretty much never have a slot for these moves outside of A+BA combo enders.
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Good points. What's the difference between 22Bing Sieg's 3(B) and QS and 4Bing it? I know 22B beats everything except SCH A but does 4B beat all options?

44K used to be one of my favorite moves but it doesn't feel as good as it used to be. On what frame does it TJ? A+BA I've pretty much always used as part of a combo unless I took a risk and got a lucky CH from neutral. What I don't like about SCV's A+BA is it doesn't track as it used to and the first hit's animation is really weird (resembles more of a vertical rather than a diagonal horizontal at too sharp of an angle).
 
I use 44K to reposition myself. If I'm cornered on a wall, 44K reverts the situation and now I can make use of one of Raph's strongest advantages, his wall game. If I want TJ I usually go for 6K or even 66B+K depending on the situation. I don't use A+BA at all outside of knockdown combos, maybe it has other uses too.
 
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