Zanaken
[10] Knight
Couldn't agree more. It's also a great entry to use Prep K. I will generally decide on which I want based on whether it killed step or not when I used it.
Raphael General Discussion / Q&A
- Thread starter WuHT
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Mandritti
[09] Warrior
As far as I know, there are weak players and there are strong players who, on first seeing something they don't know, choose to respond with blind defiance. These are the players you have to do full strings on. With Prep, these are the players that DGAF until you prep K for an entire round's victory.
Against Ivy, against Pyrrhas, against Voldo, they'll challenge me every time, until they want to block punish prep K, or decide to remember exactly when to step it.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Before I forget to tell you guys;
Training mode - CPU action: QS to one side (just that.)
Keep pressing 44A+BG.
??????
Profit.
Training mode - CPU action: QS to one side (just that.)
Keep pressing 44A+BG.
??????
Profit.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Well I should probably elaborate.
That's his neutral cancel from 44A+B.
I think his UB is one of the best in the game. It's death near a wall and can be applied after so much crap.
66B on hit us a fun one, I might post the rest when I can be bothered. Either way I use it at least once a round. Usually at tip range for a whiff punish. Slow strings etc.
The cancel is great if they get behind you. I have landed a few back step into wall - 44A+B - Opponent runs around you - dazzled by neutral cancel - attacks late - CH BT B+K WS G 3A WS 3B Prep BbBE from me.
Try it, situational combos are the spice of life.
That's his neutral cancel from 44A+B.
I think his UB is one of the best in the game. It's death near a wall and can be applied after so much crap.
66B on hit us a fun one, I might post the rest when I can be bothered. Either way I use it at least once a round. Usually at tip range for a whiff punish. Slow strings etc.
The cancel is great if they get behind you. I have landed a few back step into wall - 44A+B - Opponent runs around you - dazzled by neutral cancel - attacks late - CH BT B+K WS G 3A WS 3B Prep BbBE from me.
Try it, situational combos are the spice of life.
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
It isn't. Every other character, even Xiba now, has a stellar UB cancel. Raph does not. He possibly has the worst UB in the game.
This paucity you have of concept for UB usefulness must mean no one is using them correctly around you. Yeah, Raph's UB is kinda fast and there are setups for it. Other UBs set things up.
I wish players could travel for free.
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
Mind filling us in on how Raph forces the UB? Post GI, vs aGI whiffs, after evading something with ludicrous recovery........... and? When else are we going to force Raph's UB? It doesn't even properly cancel either, unless you're sitting on some sweet secret Raph UB tech.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
That's not English...
Do you mean I have a limited basis for judging UBs?
Raph's has insane range, especially for its speed. I'll keep landing it; you can keep... not landing it?
I did mention why I thought it was good, and I also mentioned that it was my own opinion. Don't respond to that with "It isn't. It's the worst," because you can't cancel it so fast. Go mash AGAGAGAGAG for that shit, I am talking gameplay here, not how fast you can twitch with fire on your weapon....
So darn effective....
I am very comfortable with how I would perform with pretty much everyone on this forum. I am not scared of how well you might 2A me out of my half life+ combo attempt. Assuming you would beat me when you know less about me, than I know about you, is not smart.
And what? You wana land this move for free? I will take those setups, as well as some post-KD / post-launcher attempts. I really don't let chances slide for fitting in his most aggressive move.
How much do you guys even use it? Is it anywhere near the same as my experience with the move? Have you landed thousands of the things, on good players / legendary AI? I have practiced the shit out of setting up situations that leave little other than JG as an options. Don't doubt me when I simply suggest that you TRY it out.
Evil_Zutus
[09] Warrior
If you want other raph players to make better use of 44A+B then start by explaining yourself properly. Don't speak in half sentences.
1.How do you cancel to neutral, how do you do it all the time, or when can you do it?
2.What setups do you use for this move?
Spill the beans!
I do agree that his cancel to prep sucks, i'd take maxi's UB over raph's anytime.
1.How do you cancel to neutral, how do you do it all the time, or when can you do it?
2.What setups do you use for this move?
Spill the beans!
I do agree that his cancel to prep sucks, i'd take maxi's UB over raph's anytime.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
I'll write up a string list when I get in. Expect it within a day.
The neutral cancel happens when an opponent gets behind you during your G press. It can be "forced" with some solid mind-games. For instance, if their option to step is limited to one side, you can follow a QS from your opponent with a 44A+B. They will take another to guarantee a punish, and usually activate it.
Seeing as they expect you to be stuck in BT Prep, their response after stepping behind you will be a negligible poke, or a super slow punisher that you can stop yourself.
It's cancel uses are supeeeeeer niche though, I was just commenting on the UB in general, with a potential combo you can use after you cancel neutral. It's good to be prepared for more situational setups. Plus no-one seemed to figure out its activation, so I thought I'd finally say it seeing as my earlier hints about it bore zero fruit.
The neutral cancel happens when an opponent gets behind you during your G press. It can be "forced" with some solid mind-games. For instance, if their option to step is limited to one side, you can follow a QS from your opponent with a 44A+B. They will take another to guarantee a punish, and usually activate it.
Seeing as they expect you to be stuck in BT Prep, their response after stepping behind you will be a negligible poke, or a super slow punisher that you can stop yourself.
It's cancel uses are supeeeeeer niche though, I was just commenting on the UB in general, with a potential combo you can use after you cancel neutral. It's good to be prepared for more situational setups. Plus no-one seemed to figure out its activation, so I thought I'd finally say it seeing as my earlier hints about it bore zero fruit.
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
It sounds like you're confusing BT Prep cancel with a neutral UB cancel which are two different things. Raph could do similar thuings in 2. Also, theory fighter in my head would suggest negligible uses for UB neutral since stuff like Pyrrha 22 BAK will come out before she gets behind Raph enough for BT cancel and/or for him to do anything else, it should also provide enough step to clear the UB entirely unless I'm mistaken on UB realignment.
Your hints about it bore zero fruit because it doesn't suggest like you're talking about UB~true neutral, or even a UB rewind back to neutral like most UB's out there. You seem to be talking about UB~G~Prep~ BT cancel.
Personally I was wondering if you were talking about UB, opp steps, UB G sends Raph to prep which may re-align with opp where Raph can Prep BB BE the opp and get the CH guarantee or a Prep K BE style trick. Something I should admittedly mess around with before casting final judgement.
This post brought to you by the word Neutral which I don't think I'll be misspelling anytime soon.
Um, no. I wish we could land the move for free, I'd even take landing it for reasonable price. Raph often can't even land it with student loans and credit cards.
The issue we're having with is that you're pushing parlor tricks as legitimate strategy, failing to point out that they are parlor tricks, then getting pissy and insulting when some one points out gaping holes in your ideas. We don't use it very often because it often results in Raph getting fucked for doing it. If you land it against a person, good job, you're either playing a nobody or you got lucky................ OR using it in one of the aforementioned uses I laid out before.
Also, I don't know a single top player who would bring up legendary AI, or any AI. To my knowledge no high ranking player in any game (on or offline rankings) bothers to practice against AI because it's a waste of time.
I'ma stop falling for your posts cuz you gotta be trollin' by now.
Your hints about it bore zero fruit because it doesn't suggest like you're talking about UB~true neutral, or even a UB rewind back to neutral like most UB's out there. You seem to be talking about UB~G~Prep~ BT cancel.
Personally I was wondering if you were talking about UB, opp steps, UB G sends Raph to prep which may re-align with opp where Raph can Prep BB BE the opp and get the CH guarantee or a Prep K BE style trick. Something I should admittedly mess around with before casting final judgement.
This post brought to you by the word Neutral which I don't think I'll be misspelling anytime soon.
Um, no. I wish we could land the move for free, I'd even take landing it for reasonable price. Raph often can't even land it with student loans and credit cards.
The issue we're having with is that you're pushing parlor tricks as legitimate strategy, failing to point out that they are parlor tricks, then getting pissy and insulting when some one points out gaping holes in your ideas. We don't use it very often because it often results in Raph getting fucked for doing it. If you land it against a person, good job, you're either playing a nobody or you got lucky................ OR using it in one of the aforementioned uses I laid out before.
Also, I don't know a single top player who would bring up legendary AI, or any AI. To my knowledge no high ranking player in any game (on or offline rankings) bothers to practice against AI because it's a waste of time.
I'ma stop falling for your posts cuz you gotta be trollin' by now.
Listen to yourself. You've put on that provocative tone again. All he said in a rather fancy manner is that you don't understand the "usefulness" of Raph's UB despite it's speed and range. Ask a bunch of people and I guarantee you that they will say Raph's UB is one of the worst in the game. As these gentlemen have already mentioned, it doesn't cancel as well as other characters', not to mention the lack of tracking and linearity.
Again, watch your boastful tone.
There are justifications for most Raph players not using 44A+B that often and I don't think I need to explain. People will keep doubting because you tend to emphasize parlor tricks, as Bojack said. Just upload some of your gameplay and we'll see then.
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Reptile
Soul Calibur V
Not to side with anyone, but I am also of the opinion that Raph's UB is very good for an UB. I can land it offline on a good read.
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
Good read being? Just having a hunch they'll deer in headlights? Or tech trapping?
I prolly could do some more investigating on tech trapping with it. I dunno about other peeps though but when I knock some one down they almost always like 90% of the time do NOT stand back up right away.
Also, I did try Zanny's UB cancel ideas and the two times I tried it tonight I got kicked in the head. Will try it more though.
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WuHT
Premium Moderator
like beating nightmare's whiffed CE for starters into a wall splat combo.
piggy
RIP Team Edward
I wouldn't call it one of the more useful UBs in the game - not by a long shot, but it certainly hits more than it should. One place people do tend to tech and roll around too much is near walls, which is even better for this UB.
Is it great? Nah, but it certainly can be used effectively.
Is it great? Nah, but it certainly can be used effectively.
Paranormal_Oreo
[12] Conqueror
I can only think of a few UBs better than this one. So many are useless or just terrible. His definitely has uses.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Holy crap.... You guys agree it's useful? I would cry lest my jaded eyes could muster the tears.
Delloso
[10] Knight
It IS useful for the reasons Bojack stated and against people who like to run up and throw because of TC. But it's far from something you can just throw out in a match without setting it up and without great risks. I wouldn't count on Prep BT/neutral BT gimmicks as an actual strategy, but to say that Raph's UB is one of the worst of the game is exaggeration imo.
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
Why are you baiting me with this?
If your point is that Raph UB can be used, that' not what you said. Maybe you can hit someone else for good damage in some situation. The point is, if you were using someone else, it would be easier. That's not "Raph UB is one of the best in the game." It's some entirely different statement, like, "Raph's UB is better than his 3K, 5K , 1A, and 4B+K."
Icarii
[09] Warrior
Hey folks, long time forum stalker and Raph player here. Just been starting to get serious at the game after a hiatus of starting to learn frame data and punishment pre patch. Oh that Future Press book...
Anyway, the forums here have been a great help, however one thing that doesn't seem to have a direct thread or coverage is punishment data (unless I've missed something.) There is the string defense thread, but that doesn't cover all the same options. Point being, I'm starting some strict punishment data and wasn't sure where to put it for now for critique and compilation. Suggestions?
I started with mitsu. There will be some overlap with string punishment occasionally, and often times there are better options then punishment out of guard. However, here is what I've covered so far:
(Note, I have not taken the time to indicate where 3B~AB may be applicable dependent on range, or where it may not be applicable at all. I may go back and refine this.)
(*) Denotes variable BE/Combo possibilities.
VRS Mitsurugi
1A [6BB, 6AB, CE but not at tip range]
(B)A [3B~BB, 4B~BBB(*), CE]
3B [3B~BB, CE]
4B [6BB range dependent]
FC1B [6BB range dependent + interrupts FC1BB]
(K)B [6BB, 6AB range dependent, CE]
2K [236B, 6B~BB must reset to neutral, FC3B]
2KB [66B~A+B if no mist, 4B~BBB(*), CE, WRB interrupts after 2K]
3K [WRB, 2A range dependent, CE must buffer]
4K [6BB]
BT4K [6BB]
MSTB+K or BB+K [6BB]
MSTK [236B, CE]
MSTKB [6BB, 6AB, stay low on G and punish with 33KBE+6BB or CE]
66B [6BB, 2A range dependent]
66BB [66B~A+B, CE range dependent]
11A [6BB, 6AB, WRB]
11BAB [6BB, Duck 2 hit for options including CE or sidestep]
44A [6BB]
Run K [236B, 3B~BB, 4B~BBB(*), CE]
2KBEB [236B, 4B~BBB(*), 3B~BB, CE]
SSBBE [3B~BB, CE]
CE[236B, 3B~BB, CE]
Anyway, the forums here have been a great help, however one thing that doesn't seem to have a direct thread or coverage is punishment data (unless I've missed something.) There is the string defense thread, but that doesn't cover all the same options. Point being, I'm starting some strict punishment data and wasn't sure where to put it for now for critique and compilation. Suggestions?
I started with mitsu. There will be some overlap with string punishment occasionally, and often times there are better options then punishment out of guard. However, here is what I've covered so far:
(Note, I have not taken the time to indicate where 3B~AB may be applicable dependent on range, or where it may not be applicable at all. I may go back and refine this.)
(*) Denotes variable BE/Combo possibilities.
VRS Mitsurugi
1A [6BB, 6AB, CE but not at tip range]
(B)A [3B~BB, 4B~BBB(*), CE]
3B [3B~BB, CE]
4B [6BB range dependent]
FC1B [6BB range dependent + interrupts FC1BB]
(K)B [6BB, 6AB range dependent, CE]
2K [236B, 6B~BB must reset to neutral, FC3B]
2KB [66B~A+B if no mist, 4B~BBB(*), CE, WRB interrupts after 2K]
3K [WRB, 2A range dependent, CE must buffer]
4K [6BB]
BT4K [6BB]
MSTB+K or BB+K [6BB]
MSTK [236B, CE]
MSTKB [6BB, 6AB, stay low on G and punish with 33KBE+6BB or CE]
66B [6BB, 2A range dependent]
66BB [66B~A+B, CE range dependent]
11A [6BB, 6AB, WRB]
11BAB [6BB, Duck 2 hit for options including CE or sidestep]
44A [6BB]
Run K [236B, 3B~BB, 4B~BBB(*), CE]
2KBEB [236B, 4B~BBB(*), 3B~BB, CE]
SSBBE [3B~BB, CE]
CE[236B, 3B~BB, CE]