The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

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@Slade @Infernum

Brief note about Ezio block punishment, Natsu AAB and 66B are only punishable with CE, that is true. Punishing Cervy aB is very range dependent, CE works nearly always, 6B works close and 3B works mid range, its an annoying move for him but the Cervy player needs to pick his spots. Also, no Cervy is going to aGI my i21 bolt on reaction, the tool is limited as a spacing/zoning tool in the MU but isn't necessarily worthless.
 
WhYYZ said:
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I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN IN CRITICIZING CHARTS LIKE THESE. I'VE YET TO SEE ONE DONE PROPERLY. THAT IS TO SAY, SCIENTIFICALLY. THIS OFFERS NO HARD ANALYSIS AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY ANYONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE RIGOROUS NATURE OF STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. NOT ONLY DOES THIS LACK IMPORTANT INFORMATION, BUT IT DOESN'T INCLUDE ADDITIONAL CALCULATIONS THAT ARE MORE THAN NECESSARY.

MY FIRST QUESTION IS WHAT WERE THE SAMPLE SIZES FOR ALL OF THE MATCHUPS, AND WHY WAS THIS INFORMATION NOT INCLUDED? FOR EXAMPLE, IT DOESN'T SPECIFY HOW MANY VIOLA VS XIBA MATCHES YOU SAMPLED. IT SAYS "6,5." IS THIS A RATIO? OR IS IT SAYING THAT OUT OF A TOTAL OF 11 MATCHES, VIOLA WON 6? ALSO, DID YOU HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF SAMPLES FOR EACH MATCHUP? MY OTHER QUESTION IS FROM WHERE WERE THE FIGHTS SAMPLED?

THERE ARE NO CALCULATED CONFIDENCE INTERVALS OR MARGINS OF ERROR. IT'S CRUCIAL TO KNOW THE PRACTICAL LIMITATIONS OF NOT ONLY THE DATA BUT THE MEASURING METHODS AS WELL.

THIS MATH IS WEAK, AND THESE CHARTS ARE JOKES.
 
WhYYZ said:
I feel that the whole change from SCIV to SCV didn't do astaroth good. JG isn't really risky and it makes some good tools (22_88B, 1AA/1AB, 44Ah, and 66Kh) semi-useless.
Asta v Nightmare is mainly because Nightmare can outpoke upclose or outzone at mid-range.
Asta v Maxi might be 5-5 as my knowledge of maxi is REALLY low. Hilde, maxi, voldo, xiba and Hilde should be redone by someone who knows those characters really well.

Algol and leixia can pretty much get away with murder because Asta can't punish at all. Algol can Shoryuken and even though it's -22! the risk reward is really in his favor. Leixia can 3B all day long. only K punishes for 14 damage which is no that great.

Asta v Aeon is just damage. 6.5-3.5 might be a bit better imo.
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I don't think Nightmare can outzone Astaroth. both can zone really well and have similar range.
The main problem for NM is thatAstaroth shuts down his NSS every time with 66K or 66K BE and punishes 3AA, 22AA at nearly every distance with 66B (or 66K BE between the hits).
I don't see how the MU can be in Nightmare's favour

Leixia doesn't do enough damage to be a serious problem for Astaroth...it doesn't really matter if I can punish her 3b only with K if when I get her once I do a billion damage, but when she gets me I eat around 50.
Punishing her heavily isn't always possible, but with a few good just guards and meter Astaroth can CE her in many situations. Imho this MU is 6-4 for Astaroth. the damage difference is just too much to be otherwise

About Algol, imho this MU is 5-5 or 4-6, but surely not 7-3.

If Algol does a Shoryuken and I have a good read, he eats 22B BE and that's half life. If I block it and I have meter I can use CE, and that's (at the very least) half life again....if he gets me, that's around 30 damage, how is the risk - reward in his favour?
 
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SIR WOLF, I HAVE SOME PRESSING QUESTIONS FOR YOU.

Party Wolf said:
  1. France felt that it was necessary to ban Viola due to her tools, while other countries did not.
  2. A while ago there was a topic in the Cervy MU thread where NA thought Cervy vs Pyrrha is a clear disadvantage, while EU thought it was even.
  3. Omega tends to be higher in tier lists than Pyrrha in EU, while it is the other way around in NA
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ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT, INTERNATIONALLY, SPECIFIC CHARACTERS ARE PLAYED SO DIFFERENTLY THAT MATCHUPS CAN NOT BE ACCURATELY MEASURED INTERNATIONALLY?

ALSO, YOU HAVE OVERLOOKED THE GLARING POSSIBILITY THAT MAYBE EU PLAYERS HAPPEN TO PLAY ON A HIGHER LEVEL THAN NORTH AMERICAN PLAYERS, WHICH COULD EXPLAIN DIFFERING TIER OPINIONS AND DIFFERENT TOURNAMENT RESULTS. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THIS?

FINALLY, WHY HAVE YOU OPTED TO NOT THROW OUT THE VIEWPOINTS OF INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS? DO YOU FEEL THAT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT NORTH AMERICANS HAVE AN INACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF TIERS AND MATCHUPS? IF NOT, PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR PACIFISM.
 
Asodimazze said:
I don't think Nightmare can outzone Astaroth. both can zone really well and have similar range.
The main problem for NM is thatAstaroth shuts down his NSS every time with 66K or 66K BE and punishes 3AA, 22AA at nearly every distance with 66B (or 66K BE between the hits).
I don't see how the MU can be in Nightmare's favour

Leixia doesn't do enough damage to be a serious problem for Astaroth...it doesn't really matter if I can punish her 3b only with K if when I get her once I do billion damage, but when she gets me I eat around 50.
Punishing her heavily isn't always possible, but with a few good just guards and meter Astaroth can CE her in many situations. Imho this MU is 6-4 for Astaroth. the damage difference is just too much to be otherwise

About Algol, imho this MU is 5-5 or 4-6, but surely not 7-3.

If Algol does a Shoryuken and I have a good read, he eats 22B BE and that's half life. If I block it and I have meter I can use CE, and that's (at the very least) half life again....if he gets me, that's around 30 damage, how is the risk - reward in his favour?
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Regarding NM v Asta, I honestly dont feel either has the advantage in this MU. The mid to long range game could go either way. Upclose both have there advantages, NM having the faster pokes while Asta has decent enough pokes he also has his ridiculous throw pressure. I'd argue that NM also has a decent throw game, not up to par with Asta but its still a threat. Both have similar RO and wall pressure. Its a 5-5 IMHO.
 
Alright everyone...lets keep it calm. No reason to start becoming combative. Yes you can say that you're just merely saying blah blah blah but you must know and expect what could/will be coming. I don't wanna start deleting things again so I'll leave things as they are now but I'll be watching.

On that note I also wanna chime in real quick with my own views once again on this matter. This is a SIMPLE, TIER-LIST thread. Not a matchup thread and not a place for scientific formulas. Yes we can break down every aspect of every character and...whatever. But when you really look at it you have to understand that you can't really bring science into it all that much because there is no constant due to the variable of player skill and experience.

So let's just keep it as simple as possible. Act as if you have all the time in the world and ask yourself this: Hey who do you think is the better character to win with overall Viola or Zwei? Okay Viola or Voldo? Etc. Compile all this information in your head and put them in a list.

Remember people this is all about players opinions so everyone's list will be different. It's fine to ask them why their's may look different than yours and why did they place certain characters wherever but keep your criticisms to yourself. This goes for EVERYONE. I myself have actually laughed outright at certain lists I've seen and just shaken my head at others but if that's how those people feel, fine. I may not agree with them so I won't even pay attention to them if I deem those lists silly.

Hell I might be proven wrong later down the line but right now we're trying to get a feel for the overall tier list and a general consensus on how most characters should be placed. That's the goal so let's keep all our dick measure-ers in the drawer and once again keep things civil.
 
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In regards to partisans dns b punishment list. I went into training last night and natsu does not get kk, even at extreme close range.
 
kAb said:
In regards to partisans dns b punishment list. I went into training last night and natsu does not get kk, even at extreme close range.
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To test it I did dash in G as DNS B came out. Seemed fairly inconsistent but I did manage to get it 3 times (listed all options I could get at least 3 times in an open space). Should have made note of it, but kinda had to rush through some parts when I made the list.
MONEYMUFFINS said:
PARTISAN, YOU SCRUB! I TRUSTED YOU.
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Don't trust me...trust...THIS:

 
I R exposed. I guess I couldn't buffer dns b fast enough. I was stepping forward between the first and 2nd dash in hopes of blocking it at closest range possible and had no success.
 
SCPartisan said:
The goal of this thread will be to get some productive SCV related talk happening and to bring in opinions from various regions and player types.

If you are going to argue someone's opinion on something they post, explain your own reasons. Simply disagreeing and saying nothing as to why is basically pointless and contributes nothing to the conversation.
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GreatOne1939 said:
Remember people this is all about players opinions so everyone's list will be different. It's fine to ask them why there's may look different than yours and why did they place certain characters wherever but keep your criticisms to yourself.
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GreatOne1939 said:
Get off muh lawn.
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Thing seem civil enough here (at least for a tier thread). Don't go all mother hen on us, GO. That said, let's try to cut back on the OMG SCIENCE unless you're tying it to a concrete in-game example being used to support a specific tier/MU point you're trying to make.
 
SCPartisan said:
To test it I did dash in G as DNS B came out. Seemed fairly inconsistent but I did manage to get it 3 times (listed all options I could get at least 3 times in an open space). Should have made note of it, but kinda had to rush through some parts when I made the list.


Don't trust me...trust...THIS:

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Isn't k, k, 2k a combo, wouldn't that work?
 
IAdoreBunnies said:
PYRHHA HAS BETTER OKI, A DECENT DUCK PUNISHER, AND FAR MORE USEFUL MOVES.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, OMEGA HAS NO FAST, DAMAGING MID TO PUNISH DUCKING AT CLOSE RANGE. THERE IS 3B, BUT NOT ONLY IS IT MEGA-UNSAFE, BUT SHE ONLY GET'S LIKE 45 DAMAGE FOR THE RISK. 4B IS OBVIOUSLY REACTABLE. IT SUCKS HAVING TO BB YOUR OPPONENT A MILLION TIMES OVER. SUCH LOW REWARD.
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DNS B fastlier
 
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