The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

[WhYYZ]

Snip

A: Stop the whole fatprinted capital letter crap. It's highly annoying.
B: I'll explain it a bit because I can tell you have no clue how to read it. It's a match-up tier list meaning you go by EVERY SINGLE match-up in the game and think about how the match-up would be. 5-5 is even. 5.5-4.5 is a slight favor, 6-4 favor, etc. etc.

Why would you use a list like that over a regular tier-list? 2 reasons. 1: Just because char A is bad v Char B and Char B is bad v char C doesn't mean Char A is bad against char C. Because every match-up is taken in account some characters can actually suprise you with how low they end up to be of how high. (In that list mainly astaroth being so low and Oprah being so high.) .

2: Discussions about match-ups. I made that list by myself so obviously isn't not 100% accurate, Hell, probably not even close to 50% because I don't know every match-up good enough because I don't play every single character against every single character against really good players all the time. You need input from top notch players from every single character to make a accurate one.

 

[IAdoreBunnies]

you go by EVERY SINGLE match-up in the game and think about how the match-up would be.

REALLY? IS THAT HOW IT WORKS? CARE TO ELABORATE ON WHAT IS "THOUGHT" ABOUT?

Why would you use a list like that over a regular tier-list?

WHAT IS A "REGULAR TIER-LIST?"

Just because char A is bad v Char B and Char B is bad v char C doesn't mean Char A is bad against char C. Because every match-up is taken in account some characters can actually surprise you with how low they end up to be of how high.

WHAT SORT OF TIER LIST USES THIS FAULTY LOGIC?

I made that list by myself so obviously isn't not 100% accurate.

I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THE MATCHUP NUMBERS, SO NO NEED TO DEFEND THAT (NOT THAT I AGREE WITH THEM EITHER). I WAS INTERESTED IN THE METHODS.

 

[WhYYZ]

snip.

I'll stop feeding people who troll now.. Cya! *ignore*

 

[IAdoreBunnies]

I'll stop feeding people who troll now.. Cya! *ignore*

I'VE ATTEMPTED SERIOUS DISCUSSION HERE. IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE TOUGH QUESTIONS, THEN GO AHEAD AND BLOW IT OFF AS "TROLLING." YOU ARGUE FOR THE STRENGTH OF YOUR TIER LIST, BUT HAVE YET TO FULLY ANSWER DIRECT QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. YOU NEVER EVEN ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS FROM MY FIRST POST.

 

[Saitoh]

I don't think Nightmare can outzone Astaroth. both can zone really well and have similar range.
The main problem for NM is thatAstaroth shuts down his NSS every time with 66K or 66K BE and punishes 3AA, 22AA at nearly every distance with 66B (or 66K BE between the hits).
I don't see how the MU can be in Nightmare's favour

Leixia doesn't do enough damage to be a serious problem for Astaroth...it doesn't really matter if I can punish her 3b only with K if when I get her once I do a billion damage, but when she gets me I eat around 50.
Punishing her heavily isn't always possible, but with a few good just guards and meter Astaroth can CE her in many situations. Imho this MU is 6-4 for Astaroth. the damage difference is just too much to be otherwise

About Algol, imho this MU is 5-5 or 4-6, but surely not 7-3.

If Algol does a Shoryuken and I have a good read, he eats 22B BE and that's half life. If I block it and I have meter I can use CE, and that's (at the very least) half life again....if he gets me, that's around 30 damage, how is the risk - reward in his favour?

Nightmare will win the zoning war against Astaroth because he can punish any whiff way faster than the golem, and his movements are way better. But still Astaroth shut down a lot of his pressure / setups, that's true. I consider this match-up a 6::4 for Astaroth but the recent glitch on 33B being safe could change that. maybe.

Agree on Leixia. She's hell at close range but the damage difference is just too great for this being an even match-up.

Algol is a whole different story though. What if Algol reads you and duck a throw or JG a bullrush ? I think the risk reward is in his favour. Also zoning him dont looks viable right now, but I might be wrong.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Just curious, why do competitive players feel in the need of categorizing characters in tiers? How are tier lists helpful?

Because there are players out there who make where a character sits on a tier list the entire basis for who they should pick.

 

[Party Wolf]

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT, INTERNATIONALLY, SPECIFIC CHARACTERS ARE PLAYED SO DIFFERENTLY THAT MATCHUPS CAN NOT BE ACCURATELY MEASURED INTERNATIONALLY?

probably

ALSO, YOU HAVE OVERLOOKED THE GLARING POSSIBILITY THAT MAYBE EU PLAYERS HAPPEN TO PLAY ON A HIGHER LEVEL THAN NORTH AMERICAN PLAYERS, WHICH COULD EXPLAIN DIFFERING TIER OPINIONS AND DIFFERENT TOURNAMENT RESULTS. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THIS?

not impossible

FINALLY, WHY HAVE YOU OPTED TO NOT THROW OUT THE VIEWPOINTS OF INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS?

EU has several different nations with players in them. If there were inaccuracies, they can explain them.

DO YOU FEEL THAT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT NORTH AMERICANS HAVE AN INACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF TIERS AND MATCHUPS? IF NOT, PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR PACIFISM.

the point of this thread is to make an accurate assessment

 

[Asodimazze]

Nightmare will win the zoning war against Astaroth because he can punish any whiff way faster than the golem, and his movements are way better. But still Astaroth shut down a lot of his pressure / setups, that's true. I consider this match-up a 6::4 for Astaroth but the recent glitch on 33B being safe could change that. maybe.

Agree on Leixia. She's hell at close range but the damage difference is just too great for this being an even match-up.

Algol is a whole different story though. What if Algol reads you and duck a throw or JG a bullrush ? I think the risk reward is in his favour. Also zoning him dont looks viable right now, but I might be wrong.

I admit I don't know anything about the recent Nightmare 33B glitch :/ Can anyone please give me some details?

About Algol, maybe I expressed myself bad.
When I talked about risk-reward I was only referring to his 623B, not the character as a whole...he surely isn't a good matchup for Astaroth, and I agree about the risk-reward being in his favour.

 

[FenrisZero]

On the Asta/Lexi MU, Lex doesn't need to hit Asta for big damage because she doesn't need to slow her offence, Asta has no frames on anything besides K, his step kill is stepable, and his "Asta Damage" is low compared to most high tiers. The MU is 6:4 Lex at least if not 7:3. If you bring up JGs I'll laugh and say low pokes and timing mixups.

Another note on Asta is that if he doesn't guess right he's eating big damage. Most of his strings have slow highs, slower mids, and are unsafe. -14 may not seem that bad vs some characters but even an AA punish switches momentum heavily in that MU. Grab Mixups are breakable and leave him at + frames but if you just wait it out until he attacks or waits you can start your attack again. All in all, Asta is Low Mid because his only saving grace is his damage output. If it wasn't for that he'd be right next to ZWEI.

Hilde is a solid character until you start JGing her charges. Once you shut down that part of her game she has to use her range and try to poke you to death. She has a good aGI and 22B is a STC, but both options are slow. Her GB game is above average but her ground game is nonexistent often only trying to force you to block a ?66A+B? for an easier GB. Meter gain is one of her strong areas but with lack luster BEs her only reason to use meter is for GI's and CEs. Which brings me to her CE; 90ish damage, extreme push back, and tech trap setups, it is probably in the top 5 for CEs. Overall, I'd put her in Mid tier even with her charge loops.

 

[SCPartisan]

I admit I don't know anything about the recent Nightmare 33B glitch :/ Can anyone please give me some details?

Looks like you can cancel GS into NSS to make some moves safe:

Tried it myself with 33B6 and 66A6 and managed to block and JG a generic 2A like in the video. Seems like there is a small window during GS where this "cancel" is possible.

Pretty crazy stuff.

Edit: You can do this with 66K6 as well but most 2As will still stop it clean. You can block/JG slower responses to GS transitions like Pat 236AB however.

33B6 into the B+K cancel is also safe to aPat CE (though the record function makes it nearly impossible to do frame 1 CEs so maybe not lol) :P

 

[thugish_pond]

REALLY? IS THAT HOW IT WORKS? CARE TO ELABORATE ON WHAT IS "THOUGHT" ABOUT?



WHAT IS A "REGULAR TIER-LIST?"



WHAT SORT OF TIER LIST USES THIS FAULTY LOGIC?



I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THE MATCHUP NUMBERS, SO NO NEED TO DEFEND THAT (NOT THAT I AGREE WITH THEM EITHER). I WAS INTERESTED IN THE METHODS.

God, every post you make is you trying too hard, and trying to seem intelligent.

I can also see why your tier list was deleted before, probly the biggest joke of them all. That said ill post my opinions soon.

 

[IAdoreBunnies]

God, every post you make is you trying too hard, and trying to seem intelligent.

WHAT A COINCIDENCE, I'VE ALWAYS FELT THE SAME ABOUT YOU. BUT I GO HARDER IN THE PAINT.

qm.gif

 

[Signia]

Hilde is a solid character until you start JGing her charges. Once you shut down that part of her game she has to use her range and try to poke you to death. She has a good aGI and 22B is a STC, but both options are slow. Her GB game is above average but her ground game is nonexistent often only trying to force you to block a ?66A+B? for an easier GB. Meter gain is one of her strong areas but with lack luster BEs her only reason to use meter is for GI's and CEs. Which brings me to her CE; 90ish damage, extreme push back, and tech trap setups, it is probably in the top 5 for CEs. Overall, I'd put her in Mid tier even with her charge loops.

Hilde is always a solid character. A good hilde won't be using string charge attacks unless they know it will hit. Her C1A and C1B are decent and C2A is her best move. With good movement, smart charges, and damage potential she has the best neutral game, and with only two of those it's still really good. She also has the tools to force a neutral game with 22B's evasion and risk/reward, 3A's aGI and safety, and 44B's evasion.

She can still make use of those as long as charge times are carefully planned and dropped when they get too high (though keeping B charged for easy 60 damage whiff punishes or even more for C2B isn't a bad option either).

As for meter, yeah, holding on to it for CE is a good choice, but her 66B BE is hit confirmable and combos into C1B for 70, I believe, and is valuable whiff punish tool when her other options aren't available.

Her biggest issue is actually damage. Her big damage stuff isn't all that easy to hit, and without that, she's left doing 60-70 damage for things like C3BA, CH 6BBB, C2A 2A+B, 3BA C1B, and 66B BE C1B, which is still pretty good for how safe she is if she does those moves at the right times, but I find myself relying on CEs to make the difference against high damage characters.

Let's not forget about her advantage lows 1A and 1B, her super safe mids B+K and 6A+B, and the all-purpose 3K.

Hilde has tons of things going for her, but so far she's only good in theory. She is the most difficult character to master completely, with her advanced combo timings changing depending on spacing of the starter, character hitboxes, subtle air control... it's almost not worth factoring in those combos since they'll land infrequently and can leave you wide open to punishes. Even a lot of her doable stuff like effective charge juggling is still only good in theory since nobody I know of has done well with her.

 

[Saitoh]

On the Asta/Lexi MU, Lex doesn't need to hit Asta for big damage because she doesn't need to slow her offence, Asta has no frames on anything besides K, his step kill is stepable, and his "Asta Damage" is low compared to most high tiers. The MU is 6:4 Lex at least if not 7:3. If you bring up JGs I'll laugh and say low pokes and timing mixups.

Another note on Asta is that if he doesn't guess right he's eating big damage. Most of his strings have slow highs, slower mids, and are unsafe. -14 may not seem that bad vs some characters but even an AA punish switches momentum heavily in that MU. Grab Mixups are breakable and leave him at + frames but if you just wait it out until he attacks or waits you can start your attack again. All in all, Asta is Low Mid because his only saving grace is his damage output. If it wasn't for that he'd be right next to ZWEI.

That actually does make a lot of sense. My objection is that you took counter fishing out of the equation, and outside of throws mixup, this is the other source of damage for Astaroth. And given the agressive playstyle that Leixia has and the fact that she has to take risks when trying to break Astaroth's zoning, there is plenty of room for counter to happens.
Still advantage for Leixia seems a bit extreme for me atm, especially 3-7.

I'll play against a strong Leixia Friday who knows the MU very well. I'll come back to you then.

 

[CappuccinoJak]

Hilde is a solid character until you start JGing her charges. .

i've always hated hated how easy her stuff is to JG lol. (i alo agree w/ the rest of the post)

 

[Signia]

So, we've discussed Omega and Hilde, two underused characters of which the community disagrees on whether they are mid or high tier, I'm curious about people's views of Yoshimitsu.

 

[KineticClash]

To add to your post about Hilde, Signia, any combo that involves C2B can reach at least half life damage meter less against most of the cast if your timing is precise. C2B loops also give her a full CE of meter. They are difficult and inconsistent combos, but they can definitely be mastered.

 

[FenrisZero]

Yoshi is a solid character with a very high damage potential, but suffers from a lack of strong long range moves. Yoshi has to rely on poking with 3K and 4K so he can move in and start an offence, which can both be stepped to the left. Apart from having poor long range tools, Yoshi is also missing a good mixup game. Yoshi's stances can all get beat out by simply jumping backwards or BBing. Most of Yoshi's setups are slow enough that you can react to them and evade accordingly.

Meter is another area where Yoshi is out shined by most of the cast. He has terrible BEs and an easy mode iMCF which in almost all cases is worse than regular iMCF. Most Yoshi players agree that the best way to use meter is to GI into CE. Which leads me to his post GI game; Bad. Unless your opponent is in front of a wall, you're looking at 3B a:B+K deathcopter mixups. His wall game is fucking nasty. High execution combos oft lead into well over half life and give him strong Oki.

These problems are why people put Yoshi in Mid or Low-Mid despite having amazing damage near walls.

Double post Edit.

To add to your post about Hilde, Signia, any combo that involves C2B can reach at least half life damage meter less against most of the cast if your timing is precise. C2B loops also give her a full CE of meter. They are difficult and inconsistent combos, but they can definitely be mastered.

Charge loops are inconsistent and in my opinion are not that great. Missing a charge leads to a momentum shift in most cases and puts Hilde on the defensive where she quickly falls apart.

 

[KineticClash]

You can easily detect when your loops are going wrong and end the combo with an A charge (or continue it by adding 3B BE), which is part of mastering the loops.

I'm also surprised no one really touched on 2A+B or B+K which cause KND on NH. This is great for a mid/throw mixup game. Also, 66K

 

[CappuccinoJak]

I'm also surprised no one really touched on 2A+B or B+K which cause KND on NH.

they also both tech crouch in the first few frames, which can be super useful at times.