The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

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Blueboyb said:
DNS B unpunishable by almost the entire cast? Meterless yes, but with meter no. Pat, Ezio, Maxi, Pyrrha, Pyrrha omega, Leixia, Raphael, Apat, Tira, Cervantes all can CE punish DNS B for good damage. Also some characters such as Cervantes, Apat, Pyrrha, P omega, Mitsurugi, Natsu, Gloomy Tira (Sometimes Jolly), all have solid meterless punishment options for for DNS B.
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let me tell you why that's bullshit.

Cervy: 2A from point blank. aB whiffs at all ranges due to pushback
Apat: double twisters. 44b+k whiffs at range due to pushback.
Pyrrhas: stabs work. they punish each other hard
Mitsu: 6b8 only works on point blank block. whiffs due to pushback. nothing else touches it.
Natsu: a:6 is way out of range. nothing works afaik
GS Tira: lol, have you ever even actually looked at 3AA range? it's terrible. she only gets a punish with her back to the wall. and what move could you possibly be talking about in jolly? surely not 4k. that has even worse range.
 
jansauer said:
let me tell you why that's bullshit.

Cervy: 2A from point blank. aB whiffs at all ranges due to pushback
Apat: double twisters. 44b+k whiffs at range due to pushback.
Pyrrhas: stabs work. they punish each other hard
Mitsu: 6b8 only works on point blank block. whiffs due to pushback. nothing else touches it.
Natsu: a:6 is way out of range. nothing works afaik
GS Tira: lol, have you ever even actually looked at 3AA range? it's terrible. she only gets a punish with her back to the wall. and what move could you possibly be talking about in jolly? surely not 4k. that has even worse range.
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I know DNS B is not always punishable on block. That still doesn't change the fact that is is punishable. WhYYz said DNS B was "unpunishable by most of the cast". Punishment options exist, back to the wall or not. Lol, I never said these punishes are 100% guaranteed.
 
Even Astaroth can punish DNS B with K if she is close enough, but it never happens.

For most characters it is only punishable when their back is against the wall.
 
Blueboyb said:
DNS B unpunishable by almost the entire cast? Meterless yes, but with meter no. Pat, Ezio, Maxi, Pyrrha, Pyrrha omega, Leixia, Raphael, Apat, Tira, Cervantes all can CE punish DNS B for good damage. Also some characters such as Cervantes, Apat, Pyrrha, P omega, Mitsurugi, Natsu, Gloomy Tira (Sometimes Jolly), all have solid meterless punishment options for for DNS B.

Also trust me, a perfect Viola is much more deadly than a perfect apat. A perfect Viola would get 100+ damage every time off a simple 6b+k mixup (And oki afterwards for another 6b+k mixup lol.) Nothing Apat has can compare to this, even his otherworldy double JFT punishment options do not compare.
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Rangewise and meterwise this is Bs. If you have no meter and Omega has meter, well have fun eating GI, DNS b:4 all day because there is nothing you can do about it. Pat, Apat and leixia are the only characters that can gain enough meter to somewhat support that habit. Also only Phyrra, Oprah and Apat can punish it the rest you named don't have the range enough to punish. Hell, I'm not even sure Ezio's CE punish works the pushback is REALLY huge. It's -14 for crying out loud.

Viola has a very weak block punishment game. She has raw power but gameplay wise she pretty straight forward and because of her weak block punish game some characters get to do stupid stuff that she can barely punish or can't punish at all. Apat is a different story. -12 is pretty much 80% of all moves when JG'd (which is pretty much the way I play aPat btw). 2363B is the most broken move in this game. 1B;B is a 17 frame punisher that Rings out, Wall splats and does 112 damage + 2 chances for a clean hit. His 214B+G is a grab that does over 100 damage without walls.

Blueboyb said:
Punishment options exist, back to the wall or not. Lol, I never said these punishes are 100% guaranteed.
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Just read this. Why would a good Oprah player do DNS B when he/she knows you can punish it during that situation?
 
WhYYZ said:
Just read this. Why would a good Oprah player do DNS B when he/she knows you can punish it during that situation?
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That is exactly my point. This what I wanted to point out from the beginning lol. Under some circumstances you can force Omega to think twice about mindlessly using DNS B, effectively limiting her options during that instant in time. Just the threat of punishment (not actually going out of your way and punishing, but implying so) can be enough.

.
 
DNS B punishment:

Bold font = Punishes possible without back to wall.
*= Back to wall punish ONLY.
RED FONT = Character unable to punish without back to wall.


Patroklos -
Meterless: B (close to close-mid range) BB*, AA*, 2A*, 3KK*
With meter: CE (close to close-mid range?)

ZWEI -
Meterless: AA*, 2A*, 6B*, K*, 3K*
With meter: N/A

Leixia-
Meterless: 6KK (close and mid range. Gets blocked or 2nd hit whiffs at long range), 6B (All ranges), AA*,2A*, K*, BB*, and 3K*
With meter: CE (All ranges?)

Natsu-
Meterless: KK (absolute closest range possible), AA*, A:6*, 2A*, 4B*, 2bA*, and 3KK*
With meter: N/A

Ezio-
Meterless: AA*, 2A*and K*
With meter: CE (All ranges?)

Raph-
Meterless: 6BB (Close-Long range, might whiff at max range), 4K (close range), 3A*, K*, and 2A*
With meter: CE (All ranges?)

Viola-
Meterless: ORB/SET AAB*, ORB/SET BBB*, ORB/SET 2B*, 2A*and K*
With meter: N/A

Pyrrha-
Meterless: 236B (Whiffs at longest range. AT works until long range block), BB/BK (Close to Mid range), AA/AK*, 2A*, 6B* and K*
With meter: CE (All ranges)

Siegfried-
Meterless: K*
With meter: N/A

Hilde-
Meterless: AA*, 2A*, 4A*, K* and 66K*
With meter: N/A

Xiba-
Meterless: 3A*, 2A* and K*
Meter: N/A

Ivy-
Meterless: 6B8K (Close to close-mid range only?), 4B (Closest range possible), K (Closest range possible), AA/(A)*, 2A*, K*and 3K*
With meter: N/A

Cervantes-
Meterless: 2A (Closest range possible), AA*, aB*, B2*, K* and 6K*
With meter: CE (All ranges)

Aeon-
Meterless: A (Close range), K (Close-Mid range), AA*, 2A* and 4B*
With meter: CE*

Tira-
Meterless: JS/GS AA*, GS 3AA*, GS 2A*, GS BB*, K*and JS/GS 4K*
With meter: CE and GS 3A BE*

Nightmare-
Meterless: 6K (Close range) and K*
With meter: N/A

Mitsurugi-
Meterless: 6B8 (Close to mid range), AA*, 2A*, 1B*, K* and 66K*
With meter: N/A

Maxi-
Meterless: K (Closest range possible), AA ~ RC*, 2A*, BB ~ LO* and 3K*
With meter: CE (Close - Mid-Long range. Whiffs at longest range)

Yoshimitsu-
Meterless: B (Close to close-mid range), 6B (Close range) K (Close to close-mid range), AA*, a:B+K*, 2A*, 2aB*, BB* and 3K*
With meter: 6B BE (Close to mid range)

Dampierre-
Meterless: K (Close to close-mid range), AA*, 6A*, 2A*, BB*and 6B*
With meter: 6B BE*

Voldo-
Meterless: 6B (Close to mid range), K (Close range), AA* and 2A*.
With meter: 6B BE (Close to mid range. 2nd hit whiffs just out side of mid range)

Astaroth-
Meterless: K (Close range only) and 6A*
With meter: N/A

Alpha Patroklos-
Meterless: 2143a:B/2143aB (All ranges), 44B+K (Close to close-mid range, whiffs past that range), AA*, 2A*, and K*
With meter: CE (All ranges?), 44B+K BE (Close to close-mid range, whiffs past that range), 2A BE*

Algol-
Meterless: 6B (Close to close-mid range), K (close to close-mid range), AA*, 2A* and 6KK*
With meter: N/A

Pyrrha Omega-
Meterless: 236B:4 (Close to mid-long range without AT. With 236:B, AT becomes possible at almost every range), BB (close to mid range), K (Close range), AA*, 2A*, 6B* and 3K*
With meter: CE (All ranges)

Whoop!
 
SCPartisan said:
Siegfried-
Meterless: K*
With meter: N/A
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KokoYoshi said:
I have some simple questions. Just asking why Algol is so high and how come Omega seems to be just....balanced? I'm just curious and thank you.
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For Algol, as I said: because of 1-hit kills. He can usually end a round if he gets a guard burst too, as many allow 44B combos. Algol players often complain about needing meter - I guess Viola should complain about needing meter too? Compared to Viola he has linearity problems, but far better options at range. They are both off the scale in terms of risk/reward in this game.

Pyrrha Ω seems balanced to me. She has one incredible attack, and her game is based around it. But at range, afaik, it is her only tool. So you can block or step it, and some characters can even punish it. Her only alternatives from range are 236236 A (delayed for added range) and 66A. Some characters can punish these to the point where they become very difficult to use.

Ω has serious unsafety issues compared to Pyrrha. Her 1K is borderline reactable and punishable, with the only mixup being an unrewarding 9K mixup. This limits her to moving up close, using throws and 4B mixups against turtles. Imo, Pyrrha Ω players need to think hard and play smart to earn their victories.

Pyrrha on the other hand has few weaknesses. Her 1K is ideal for a close-range poke - how many characters wouldn't spam this move if they had it? Only those who already have something similar. At range she has 66A, 6B+K, 3B, even 22A has great range. Without DNS B she is much weaker to backstep, but a delayed 66A can deal with that. She has a whole extra dimension in terms of evasion attacks like 236K and 22K. These attacks can kill mindgames when defending, while 66A and 44A do the same on attack. And although her CE alone doesn't do as much damage, both CEs are often used in combos, where the damage difference is not so great. Pyrrha can also fish for that CE damage easily with her 3B, which is way, way better than Omega's, and is much harder to step than DNS B because of the better antistep options at Pyrrha's disposal.

I'm not suggesting Pyrrha Ω is a poor character - I think she is Tira's worst matchup, for example. But I think mindgames and risk-reward are much harder for Ω in a lot of matchups, while Pyrrha can play low-risk almost all the time, and her rewards are way better than some people are making out.
 
The important difference between Pyrrha and Omega is that Pyrrha's tools are much better suited (better safety, movement, Oki, and much better non-reactionary whiff/step punishment) to the aggressive and preemptive style of play that dominates SCV.

Also, as good as Omega's tools are in a vacuum, I don't think they complement each other well. Has anyone put together a solid gameplan and accomplished something significant? I know a lot of people who have wanted to but...
 
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Pyrrha has been better than Pyrrha Ω since day 1. Pyrrha Ω is still good, but you can do the same things with Pyrrha safer and play her in a more braindead fashion with better oki and no execution requirement, which is why she's one of the most used characters in the game and more suitable to use in a tournament environment.

I think people's opinions on Omega are skewed because of how underused she still is to this day, or because they happen to get fucked up by someone who uses her, but she has weaknesses and less tools than Pyrrha to offset her raw damage output which is why she's a notch below Pyrrha. Play both characters and you will see.
 
@Infernum @Pantocrator @WhYYZ @MONEYMUFFINS

To distract everyone from the omega chat and give myself some shine, what made you all put Ezio down so low on your lists?

@Maxou
Where is muh ezio


ZUZU said:
I feel like those who have put Z.W.E.I.F alone on the bottom tier need to explain why that is. I just dont feel like he should be the only one there. He has tools that match or expose weaknesses of a few characters that have been placed above him. Aside from that is a fighting game balanced if the characters are spread well evenly across each tier? (likely wrong)
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The popular opinion and (not really untrue for that matter) is that a large majority of Zwei's set ups can be easily avoided by doing something really simple that any character can counter with ease (Okay, i duck here, okay i step here, and probably good to GI here) In my eyes anyway he still has tools strong enough to win and prove viable but he is so easily gimped and countered that it is damn hard to mount an offense and succeed with Zwei.
 
PYRHHA HAS BETTER OKI, A DECENT DUCK PUNISHER, AND FAR MORE USEFUL MOVES.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, OMEGA HAS NO FAST, DAMAGING MID TO PUNISH DUCKING AT CLOSE RANGE. THERE IS 3B, BUT NOT ONLY IS IT MEGA-UNSAFE, BUT SHE ONLY GET'S LIKE 45 DAMAGE FOR THE RISK. 4B IS OBVIOUSLY REACTABLE. IT SUCKS HAVING TO BB YOUR OPPONENT A MILLION TIMES OVER. SUCH LOW REWARD.

OMEGA'S OKI IS BAD, BUT SHE'S GOT GOOD FORCE BLOCKS AND GRAB MIXUPS FOR THESE SITUATIONS TO COMPENSATE, WHICH IS REALLY HER ELEMENT. IT'S A BASIC STRATEGY. FOR CHARACTERS THAT AREN'T GOOD AT PUMMELING/PRESSURING GROUNDED OPPONENTS, YOU BRING THE HEAT RIGHT AFTER THEY GET UP. LOL

OMEGA'S GAME IS PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. I THINK THIS IS WHAT PROJECT SOULS WAS AIMING FOR, THOUGH. THE PROBLEM IS THAT SHE'S GOT MANY UNUSEFUL MOVES, AND ONLY A FEW MOVES THAT ACTUALLY MATTER. A VERY SMALL FEW. OMEGA DOESN'T HAVE ANY SURPRISES. PYRHHA HAS A LOT MORE USEFUL MOVES. PYRRHA HAS 3B FOR DUCK-PUNISH AND OKI, 1K FOR OKI AND MIXUPS, 66B FOR OKI, 6B + K, 3A

OMEGA HAS FAR SUPERIOR ZONING ABILITY, BETTER STEP KILLS, AND GOD-TIER PUNISHMENT. BUT PYRRHA ULTIMATELY HAS BETTER REWARD, EVEN WITH LOWER RISKS, AND PYRRHA'S TOOLS AND ABILITIES ARE MORE FAVORABLE TO WINNING WHEN YOU LOOK AT EVERYTHING.
 
Jimbonator said:
To distract everyone from the omega chat and give myself some shine, what made you all put Ezio down so low on your lists?
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I tried maining Ezio because he is Badass but his tools are just meh. Almost every single good move he has isn't safe. What really saves him are his BE moves. BB BE is easily hit-comfirmed for decent damage. 66BB TC's but I'm not sure if you can hit confirm after the first hit. Both hits are -16 and easily JG'd. 6B BE is a really good -15 punisher than can do over 100 damage (iirc) thanks to the triple clean hit property. 2K is by far his best move which is kinda sad really...
 
WhYYZ said:
Almost every single good move he has isn't safe.
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3A (-2)
BB (-8)
6B (-2)
3B (-8)
1K (-6)
4K (-8)
66A (-8)
22K (-6)
BT B+K (-8)

For unsafe good moves (or at least a general list) you then have...

WR A (-12)
2K (-14)
66B (-16)
22B (-12 with pushback)
44B (-10)
11K (-16)

...but these all have their own caveats (only punishable by specific characters/situations, string fear advantage, hard to see/invisible low) that make it so he is not going to be punished 100% of the time, even in match-ups where on paper he should be getting punished for 70 damage every single time. And even if he were, he still has all of those safe moves to pressure and contain.

Also, 66BB is hit confirmable for a good few hours.
 
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Age_of_Truth said:
Her 1K is ideal for a close-range poke - how many characters wouldn't spam this move if they had it? Only those who already have something similar.
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1K IS GOOD. BUT I THINK IT SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY THAT I END UP USING 2K MORE THAN 1K SIMPLY BECAUSE THE RANGE ON 1K IS SO POOR. IF YOU CAN MANAGE TO SPAM 1K, THEN IT’S GREAT. BUT IT REALLY DEPENDS ON HOW YOU SET UP YOUR GAME AND WHO THE OPPONENT IS. OMEGA ALSO HAS THE BETTER 2K AS I SAID BEFORE.

ALSO, YOU MENTIONED 66A BEING A RANGE MOVE. IT SEEMS TO DEPEND ON THE HIT BOX. IT IS OKAY AGAINST OMEGA, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT AGAINST IVY AND AEON AND OTHERS, IT’S DEFINITELY NOT RELIABLE FOR RANGE. 3A IS A BETTER EXAMPLE OF A GOOD RANGE ATTACK.

Malice said:
Pyrrha Ω is still good, but you can do the same things with Pyrrha safer and play her in a more braindead fashion with better oki and no execution requirement
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THE PEOPLE WHO MAIN OMEGA DO SO BECAUSE THEY PREFER THE FACT THAT OMEGA HAS 236236B. THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS CALLING NON-236236B SOPHITIA PLAYERS BRAIN DEAD. SOPHITIA PLAYERS WERE ONCE STEREOTYPED AS MINDLESS JUST BECAUSE 236236B EXISTED. BUT NOW OMEGA PLAYERS HAVE CONVENIENTLY SHIFTED THE STIGMA BY USING PYRRHA AS THEIR SCAPEGOAT. SHAME ON YOU.

Jimbonator said:
To distract everyone from the omega chat and give myself some shine, what made you all put Ezio down so low on your lists?
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I RANKED EZIO IN TIER B, THE SAME AS LEIXIA. THEY’RE PROBABLY BOTH DECENT. I JUST NEVER FOUND THEM AS THREATENING AS EVERYONE ELSE I RANKED HIGHER. FOR ME THE BIGGEST FACTOR IS USUALLY DAMAGE AND RING OUTS.
 
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