The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

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Slade

[14] Master
For Algol, as I said: because of 1-hit kills. He can usually end a round if he gets a guard burst too, as many allow 44B combos. Algol players often complain about needing meter - I guess Viola should complain about needing meter too? Compared to Viola he has linearity problems, but far better options at range. They are both off the scale in terms of risk/reward in this game.
This is a pretty facile argument. The first thing to take note of is that Algol doesn't actually have any true touch of death combos–in order to do 240+ in one combo he needs 2 full bars and a combination of clean hits, opponent ukemis (not necessarily tech traps, but situations where tech or no tech the combo is guaranteed* but does more damage when the opponent ukemis), damage bonuses on the initial hit (CH, side/back hits, etc), and/or the opponent running face first into a cloud of bubbles (training mode stuff).
Don't mistake this as a defense of 220 damage combos–him being able to break guard, do one combo, and do a 50/50 demon flip for death against a formerly full-health opponent is pretty retarded. We could delve into the merits and downsides of a 92% midscreen combo after a guard burst relative to forcing a ringout condition, bursting them, and taking the RO (something Algol is also pretty good at thanks to 66A and 3B BE, but again, nothing compared to what Viola is capable of), but that's a slippery slope of if's, and's, apples, and oranges that I'd rather not get into unless absolutely necessary.
*Excepting ukemi JG and extenuating circumstances.

Secondly, the point you make about meter is similarly myopic and fails to address the key differences between Algol and Viola, specifically the retarded amounts of meter Viola gains back from her combos, as well as the larger amounts of damage gained pro rata to her meter expenditure. It's silly to directly compare something like a 6B+K setup and 44B, but just for the purpose of demonstrating the damage disparity between the two characters:
Set 6B+K → 3K combos for 108, 172, 215, 242 (dead), and 267 (ultradead) for 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 BEs, respectively versus
44B combos for 88, 133, 162, 197, and 220 damage for 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 BEs, respectively.

Lastly and most importantly, basing tier placements on nothing but damage and a barebones appraisal of risk/reward based on the far-too-often-touted "you deal this much damage on hit vs. you take this much damage when blocked" definition is asinine. Is Algol high tier? Of course. Is he Viola tier? Absolutely not.

P.S.: You're still wrong about Pat B+K being "not too bad on whiff", despite your insistence otherwise.
 

Ramus

[14] Master
I do believe that Z.W.E.I could be better, I mean some of his moves are useless; 66K 99K.
Some of his staple combos don't reward enough, I mean A+G 4B:BE 1K:BE A+B damage is minimal considering is a complete bar combo (It makes up for the possible being a possible R.O combo, but just maybe.)
But I think with the right execution, and an hypothetical E.I.N timing mix up, he wouldn't be so bad, his major problem, is that, at least for what I see, I don't know really, Z.W.E.I is in a rift between defensive and aggressive char.


About Omega Vs Vanilla, I think one thing that would help a lot would be if Omega had DNS with the same frames as Elysium, but being overall slower she makes up with a better G.I game.
If I am not mistaken Omega can 66K 236236B after a guard impact, while Vanilla uses 236, less damage I believe.
B.E wise, Vanilla takes it, for the bigger diversity and they can become guard pressure, while I remember Omega being more raw damage oriented.


Also I would put Patroklos in A tier, sure he have some flaws, but thing such as a high damage G.I move such as (A+B bug.) and free G.I (After G.I he can 66B 66B+K 236B will fill half of a bar.) But one of the things I don't know very much is about how well he deals stepping, anyone could tell me?
 

Blueboyb

[11] Champion
) But one of the things I don't know very much is about how well he deals stepping, anyone could tell me?
Pat has tools to shut down all types of movement. 66b destroys backstep for good damage and meter and is only -2. 44a catches sidestep and combos into CE for half life and is also -2. 66a Catches both and is +12 on hit and is also safe.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
Some of his staple combos don't reward enough, I mean A+G 4B:BE 1K:BE A+B damage is minimal considering is a complete bar combo (It makes up for the possible being a possible R.O combo, but just maybe.)
The idea with A+G is to use it to pressure in tandem with EIN, usually from advantage on hit from something. For example:

(B+K)(BE) ~ A+G ~ EIN ~ 66A+B - 93 damage
(B+K)(BE) ~ A+G ~ EIN ~ CE ~ B+K ~ 4A+B ~ 2K - 174 damage

And this is in addition to also being a forward ring-out throw. So his problem is not his damage on staples, but more that it is exceedingly difficult to force the opponent into a situation where they have to respect both the mix-up that ZWEI is enforcing, and the fact that EIN is charging and could attack at any moment.

ZWEI deals a lot of damage, but getting in a position to deal that damage is tough.
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
This is a pretty facile argument.
Well yes, it was a light contribution to the discussion, the emphasis was on making my point as concisely as possible so that the person who asked the question doesn't get bored.

Lastly and most importantly, basing tier placements on nothing but damage and a barebones appraisal of risk/reward based...
Again, yes, well done. But that's not what I did is it. I was making a couple of key points to back up what I wrote, not listing every single reason why I think Algol is arguably the strongest character in the game. You can attack my argument for its brevity - and I could do exactly the same to yours, and write three times as much as you did, about the strengths of weakness of Algol and Viola, concluding with some comment about how 'it's not just about the merits of one setup, or the linear assessment of total damage per BE' blah blah blah.

P.S.: You're still wrong about Pat B+K being "not too bad on whiff", despite your insistence otherwise.
Needlessly bringing this up in this thread is making me think you have some personal problem with me going on. I'm flattered. How about we take this to PMs if you really want to go through it.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
@Maxou
Where is muh ezio
Jimbonator : should be around C or C - tier in my tier list. Probably C- tier.
Nowhere near high tier but not bottow tier either.

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OMEGA HAS FAR SUPERIOR ZONING ABILITY, BETTER STEP KILLS, AND GOD-TIER PUNISHMENT. BUT PYRRHA ULTIMATELY HAS BETTER REWARD, EVEN WITH LOWER RISKS, AND PYRRHA'S TOOLS AND ABILITIES ARE MORE FAVORABLE TO WINNING WHEN YOU LOOK AT EVERYTHING.


Apart from the caps + bold (what's wrong with you guys ? Do you want so much to be different hahaha?), your post have no sense "when you look at everything".
Better step kills? Better reward? She has no fast damaging mid? She has bad oki? 1K is bad?
What did I just read?

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About Algol :
Stop reducing the character to 44B. He has other amazing tools too and his weaknesses are nowhere near as huge as you guys make it sound to be.
 

IAdoreBunnies

[10] Knight
THIS IS A SCHEMATIC I HAVE DEVELOPED FOR DETERMINING TIERS IN SCV. IT IS CRUCIAL THAT YOU UNDERSTAND HOW "TIER" IS BEING OPERATIONALIZED, AS THIS IS WHAT ALLOWS US TO ACTUALLY MEASURE TIER.

HATES' POST WAS PRETTY CLEVER AND WELL ARGUED, BUT A TIER SYSTEM FOR A FIGHTING GAME SHOULD ULTIMATELY BE BASED ON A GAME'S FIGHTING MECHANICS. BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY VALUE AT LOOKING AT HOW THE MATCHUPS VARY.

"TIER" GENERALLY REFERS TO A LEVEL IN A GRADIENT. BUT THE DEFINITION IS ADJUSTED DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS BEING USED FOR. BELOW IS THE OPERATIONALIZED DEFINITION OF TIER FOR A TYPICAL FIGHTING GAME.

TIER- A GRADE OF GENERAL STRENGTH DERIVED BY EXAMINING DIFFERENT CHARACTERS IN A SET OF BOTH PRACTICAL AND IDENTICAL CIRCUMSTANCES/SITUATIONS TO SEE HOW AND HOW MORE/LESS EFFICIENTLY ONE IS ABLE TO HANDLE THEM AND ACHIEVE A WIN

THE CHARACTER THAT MORE EFFICIENTLY DOES SOMETHING IS THE CHARACTER WHO RECEIVES MORE REWARD THAN OTHER CHARACTERS, EITHER WITH THE SAME, OR LESS, AMOUNT OF QUALITY WORK IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES, GIVEN THE AVAILABLE TOOLS OF THE CHARACTER

ANOTHER IMPORTANT CONCEPT TO REMEMBER IS THAT, IN ORDER TO WIN, ONE MUST OUTPUT MORE DAMAGE RELATIVE TO THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE INCURRED. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN'T KILL YOUR OPPONENT IF THEY KILL YOU FIRST. YOU COULD VIEW THIS AS A BIT OF A DEFENSIVE ELEMENT. THIS IS ONE REASON WHY CHARACTERS THAT DEAL LESS DAMAGE THAN OTHERS CAN STILL BE PLACED ON A HIGHER TIER LEVEL. THIS IS ALSO WHY DAMAGING BUT UNSAFE MOVES ARE PROBLEMATIC. OUTSIDE OF DEALT DAMAGE, THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS/VARIABLES INFLUENCING THE FIGHTING DYNAMIC.

AFTER ESTABLISHING THE DEFINITION, WE NEED TO ADJUST IT TO SCV'S FIGHTING MECHANICS. WINS ARE ACHIEVED BY DEALING DAMAGE TO THE OPPONENT, AS IS THE CASE IN MOST FIGHTING GAMES. HOWEVER, IN SCV THIS IS DONE AS FOLLOWS:

MIXUPS
DEFEATING HIGH GUARD - GRABS & LOWS
DEFEATING LOW GUARD - MIDS

OKIZEME IS SUBCATEGORY OF MIXUPS. THE MIXUP ELEMENT IS WHAT GIVES OKI IT'S BACKBONE. THE SPEED AND DAMGE OF SUCH MOVES ARE ALSO RELEVANT. FOR EXAMPLE, VIOLA 3B IS A GOOD PRIMARY MID FOR PUNISHING DUCKING/DEFEATING LOW GUARD, AS IT LEADS TO GOOD DAMAGE AND RINGOUTS, IS i15, WHICH IS HARDLY REACTABLE, AND IS ONLY -14 ON BLOCK.

THAT IS THE NAME OF THE GAME. AND, OF COURSE, THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE YOU CAN DAMAGE YOUR OPPONENT WHILE THEY AREN'T OR ARE SIMPLY UNABLE TO BLOCK. THESE INSTANCES INCLUDE:

PUNISHMENT
PUNISHING A WHIFF/WHIFF PUNISHMENT (CERVY WOULD BE VERY HIGH IN THIS CATEGORY)
PUNISHING AN UNSAFE MOVE/BLOCK PUNISHMENT
PUNISHING STEP (COUNTER HITS)
PUNISHING THE OPPONENT AS THEY ARE ATTACKING (COUNTER HITS)

ZONING ABILITY
USAGE OF STAGE ELEMENTS IS A SUBCATEGORY OF THIS.

AEON, FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD BE THE HIGHEST IN THIS CATEGORY.


OPERATIVE THREAT - THE EXTENT TO WHICH ONE FORCES THE OPPONENT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT ATTACKING. THIS COVERS BACKSTEP GIMMICKS, QUICK 2A POKES, FRAME GAMES, ETC.

IVY, FOR EXAMPLE, CAN CONSTANTLY SPACE AND USE EVASIVE MOVES. FOR THE OPPONENT, APPLYING AN OFFENSE TO THIS IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN OTHER MATCHUPS.


OPERATIVE VULNERABILITY - THE EXTENT TO WHICH ONE HAS THE ABILITY TO LIMIT THEIR OPPONENT'S POSSIBLE OPTIONS. ANOTHER WAY OF PHRASING IT IS "THE STRENGTH OF AVAILABLE TOOLS." DO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO CATCH CERVY'S BACKSTEP AFTER HE 2A'S? DO YOU HAVE A HORIZONTAL MID TO AVAIL YOU OF PYRRHA 22_88K GIMMICKS? THE SPEED AND RANGE OF SUCH MOVES MUST ALSO BE CONSIDERED. THOSE ARE EXAMPLES, BUT THIS ULTIMATELY LOOKS AT THE STRENGTHS AND THREATS OF A CHARACTER'S COUNTER TOOLS THE HIGHER YOUR VULNERABILITY, THE HARDER YOUR CHARACTER HAS TO WORK. IN OTHER WORDS, THE HIGHER YOUR VULNERABILITY, THE MORE ELEMENTS THERE ARE WORKING AGAINST YOU.

SO THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES, "HOW WELL EQUIPPED IS "X" CHARACTER TO EFFICIENTLY DEAL DAMAGE TO THEIR OPPONENT AND MINIMIZE DAMAGE DONE TO THEMSELVES?"


I'M PLANNING ON CHARTING ALL OF THIS OUT SOON. I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT TIERS DON'T HAVE CONCRETE VALUES. THEY'RE SIMPLY ARRANGED IN APPROXIMATE CLASSES.

FIRST, LET US TALK ABOUT WHY MORE DAMAGE IS BETTER. IT DOESN'T MAKE THE CHARACTER OVERALL BETTER THAN ANOTHER CHARACTER, BUT IT DOES MAKE THEM BETTER IN A PARTICULAR CATEGORY. THIS IS SIMPLY BECAUSE WINNING IS INEVITABLY THE RESULT OF DAMAGE, SO NATURALLY, THE GAME REVOLVES AROUND IT.

SUPPOSE YOU ARE LEIXIA, AND THAT YOU ARE MAKING SUCCESSFUL READS ABOUT WHEN YOUR OPPONENT WILL DUCK. YOU HAVE 22_88B, 3B, AND FC 3B AT YOUR DISPOSAL AS YOUR STRONGEST DAMAGING OPTIONS FOR SUCH A SITUATION. UNFORTUNATELY, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE MAKING THE RIGHT READS, A CHARACTER THAT POSSESSES A STRONGER DUCK-PUNISHER WILL MORE EFFICIENTLY AND MORE QUICKLY ACHIEVE A WIN VIA THIS METHOD IN A SMALLER NUMBER OF SUCCESSFUL READS. THUS, IN TERMS OF DAMAGE/REWARD, CERVY 3B IS A MORE EFFICIENT DUCK-PUNISHER WHEN THE RIGHT READS ARE MADE.

TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, CERVY 3B. AT A MINIMUM AVERAGE, IT GETS 64 DAMAGE (WITH JF EXECUTION, YOU GET 83). 4 CORRECT READS WITH THIS MOVE GIVES YOU A WIN, WHILE LEIXIA NEEDS 6. SO WITHIN THIS PARTICULAR CATEGORY, ONE CHARACTER HAS TO WORK HARDER THAN THE OTHER IN ORDER TO ATTAIN A WIN.

LET US COMPARE THE PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES OF CERVY'S AND LEIXIA'S STEPPING ABILITIES. AFTER A BLOCKED 2A, LEIXIA IS NOT IN A GOOD POSITION TO DISRESPECT BEING AT DISADVANTAGE. IF SHE TRIED STEPPING, IT'S LIKELY SHE WOULD GET CAUGHT IF THE OPPONENT SIMPLY DID THE APPROPRIATE COUNTER. ALSO, AFTER SUCH A MOVE, THE OPPONENT IS ALLOWED A DECENT TRADE-OFF OR RETALIATORY RESPONSE. HOWEVER, CERVY HAS MORE FAVORABLE OPTIONS. AFTER CERVY 2A'S, HIS BACKSTEP FOLLOWUP ALLOWS HIM TO GET AWAY WITH MURDER. WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT THIS AFFECTS THE FIGHTING DYNAMIC IN VERY SIGNIFICANT WAYS. THIS SITUATION, WTIHIN THE CONTEXT OF CERVY 2A, ALLOWS YOU TO TRADE AN ATTACK FOR A POTENTIAL RESET. YOUR OPPONENT ISN'T SAFE TO ASSUME THAT THEY CAN GET A DECENT TRADE-OFF FROM BLOCKING CERVY 2A. EVEN AT ADVANTAGE IN THIS SITUATION, THE OPPONENT HAS TO WORK AGAINST MANY ELEMENTS TO TRY AND LAND AN ATTACK.

NOW, SUPPOSE YOU ARE MAXI FACING PYYRHA. MAXI HAS A LACK OF ACCESS TO A GOOD HORIZONTAL MID. HE HAS 44A, BUT NOT ONLY IS IT OPERATIVELY SLOW–WHICH LEAVES EXPLOITABLE HOLES IN ITS APPLICATION–BUT IT'S ALSO UNSAFE. THIS LEAVES MAXI MORE VULNERABLE IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS. IF PYYRHA WERE TO THROW OUT A BLOCKED BB, AND MAXI WERE TO BLOCK IT, MAXI HAS NO GOOD RETALIATORY/TRADE-OFF RESPONSE. IT'S NOT THAT MAXI DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS, IT'S JUST THAT MAXI HAS MORE ELEMENTS WORKING AGAINST HIM. HOWEVER, FOR OMEGA, THIS PROBLEM IS ALMOST COMPLETELY MITIGATED, IF NOT COMPLETELY. OMEGA 66A WOULD BE ALMOST A UNIVERSAL ANSWER TO SUCH A SITUATION. THUS, MAXI HAS TO WORK HARDER. ALSO, THE THREAT OF OMEGA 66A SERVES TO LIMIT THE OPPONENT'S OPTIONS. THEY AREN'T AS FREE TO THROW OUT CERTAIN SEQUENCES AGAINST OMEGA THAT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO AGAINST MAXI.

GUARD CRUSH WAS PURPOSELY EXCLUDED. IT ISN'T A GUARANTEED OCCURENCE, WHILE EVERYTHING MENTIONED THUS FUR IS NECESSARILY ALWAYS PRESENT. ITS SALIENCE ISN'T STRONG ENOUGH. IT ONLY OCCURS IN CERTAIN MOMENTS AND IS NOT CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FIGHT.
 
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Infernum

[11] Champion
To distract everyone from the omega chat and give myself some shine, what made you all put Ezio down so low on your lists?
Firstly I have never played a decent Ezio player.Maybe only OOFMATIC.Secondly I haven't good Ezio knowledge at all but I think he can't punish some moves very well.For example he can't punish Ivy's 214B with other than his CE.He can't punish Mitsu on block,some of his unsafe moves require that the proper punish input very quickly.As for Natsu he can't punish 66B and AAB except with his CE.Cevy moves(3B,aB,2A+B) are trouble too.And his B+K aGI both crossbows right?That's why I put him so low on my list.Maybe he deserve higher position...I really don't know.
 

Slade

[14] Master
Again, yes, well done. But that's not what I did is it. I was making a couple of key points to back up what I wrote, not listing every single reason why I think Algol is arguably the strongest character in the game. You can attack my argument for its brevity - and I could do exactly the same to yours, and write three times as much as you did, about the strengths of weakness of Algol and Viola, concluding with some comment about how 'it's not just about the merits of one setup, or the linear assessment of total damage per BE' blah blah blah.
Why post at all if you won't bother explaining your reasoning? There's no place for prevarication in MUH OBJECTIVELY CORRECT OPINIONS: THE THREAD.

Firstly I have never played a decent Ezio player.Maybe only OOFMATIC.Secondly I haven't good Ezio knowledge at all but I think he can't punish some moves very well.For example he can't punish Ivy's 214B with other than his CE.He can't punish Mitsu on block,some of his unsafe moves require that the proper punish input very quickly.As for Natsu he can't punish 66B and AAB except with his CE.Cevy moves(3B,aB,2A+B) are trouble too.And his B+K aGI both crossbows right?That's why I put him so low on my list.Maybe he deserve higher position...I really don't know.
CE shouldn't be underestimated. i13, 90 damage, and the highest clean hit chance of any CE, and clean hits bop it up to 108 damage. That's a 2K away from half life for -13 or -14.
Cerv aB and Natsu 66B are both 6B BE punishable, I believe.

Cerv's 2A+B is safe versus the entire cast except for Yoshimitsu (lol iMCF punish) and aPat (lol CE).
As for crossbows, lol. That's like judging Raphael based on the strength of his cantarella needle series.
About Algol :
Stop reducing the character to 44B. He has other amazing tools too and his weaknesses are nowhere near as huge as you guys make it sound to be.
You're misinterpreting my post. I was criticizing Hyrul's argument, in which he simplified things to absurd levels "ONE HIT KILLS = SSSSSSS+++ TIER". Algol's strengths (safety, guard damage, and utility tools like a command throw, strong punishment options, an annoying 0 on hit low, and situationally useful gambling options like 623B and 4B+K) absolutely outweigh his weaknesses enough to set him firmly in a higher tier, somewhere amid the cloud of Greeks floating around there. However, I'd have to work hard to oversell the shittiness of his movement. An often overlooked but important aspect of good (evasive) movement is that you don't have to give much of a shit about verts with strong sides.

If you watch some of Jimbo's matches versus random Mitsurugis at ECT, you'll notice he has a habit of stepping clockwise. In the end it didn't matter much--Raph's step is absolutely good enough to quickstep Mitsu 1B to its strong side. But with Algol, barring extenuating circumstances, if you step CCW against Mitsu 1B, you get hit. So what I'm saying boils down to something pretty important: A Mitsurugi player has a greater chance of hitting an Algol player with a random action at neutral than he has against a Raphael player (or Pyrrha or Viola or Alpha Patroklos or Mitsurugi or any of the other characters that has a retarded step). You might argue that it's an inconsequential factor overall, but I assert that when you push the game to the extent where any major hit could significantly affect the outcome, it is by no means an unreasonable stretch of the imagination to picture a situation such as:
Algol or Alpha Patroklos versus Pyrrha. The former have ~80 health and Pyrrha has ~50. Anticipating a BB, the 1P steps to her right to avoid BB's broken left side hitbox. Instead of BB, she does 3B. The following results:
⇒ Being a little girl, Alpha Patroklos has no difficulty evading 3B's broken right side hitbox. He punishes the whiff and wins.
⇒ Being a big manly motherfucker with much shittier movement, Algol gets caught by Pyrrha 3B's broken right side hitbox. She converts into CE and wins.

That's just one example of many that would realistically come into play, and it results in a myriad of potential effects, from something as small as demoralization from getting screwed over on a correct read (the "That's bullshit, I fucking stepped that" factor) to match-altering occurrences that are often overlooked simply because it's very difficult to watch a match, pinpoint a specific exchange between characters, and definitively say "This is where the match went sour for Player X". And honestly, that is the de facto problem with every tier list thread; the system being discussed is too complex for every nuance to be encompassed in the rhetoric you'll find here Iin my massive wall of text I've only managed to encompass one small facet of my argument) so it inevitably devolves into credibility-based arguments and bickering over conceptions formed as a result of everyone's own personal, subjective experiences with the game‒and that's all a tier list is. As I said earlier in this post, I have refrained from posting my own tier list because I it's impossible for someone to objectively assess tiers (and I'd explain my reasoning for this, but it's explicitly against the thread rules so I won't delve down that rabbit hole unless necessary), so I'm mostly in this thread to pick other peoples' brains to gain insight into how other people interpret high level play in SCV's system.
 
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WhYYZ

[10] Knight
I personally feel that creating a tier-list based on EVERY match up is the only legit way to truely create a Tier-list. We as community should be able to create it with some effort.
 

Asodimazze

[10] Knight

I made this a while back.
There is stuff I disagree with now, (Mainly Hilde being that low)
Other that that, meh.

Personally I like a tier-list like this more than just saying S/A/B etc.
WhYYZ, that's an interesting MUs table...but I don't really understand some of Astaroth numbers :

Astaroth 4-6 Nightmare
Astaroth 4-6 Maxi
Astaroth 3-7 Algol
Astaroth 3.5 - 6.5 Leixia
Astaroth 7-3 Aeon

Can you give me some explanations?
 

Party Wolf

Administrator
I personally feel that creating a tier-list based on EVERY match up is the only legit way to truely create a Tier-list. We as community should be able to create it with some effort.
I think the main problem with this is that EU and NA aren't playing the same match ups.

Some Examples (Feel free to point out inaccuracies. I apologize in advance if they exist):
  1. EU in general thinks Ezio does not have a good character design most likely due to the fact he takes a little more time to learn how to use his tools, and EU has no Ezio mains. If you are in NA and have played Jimbonator or other competent Ezio mains, you will think he is Mid/High-mid (to most people anyways).
  2. France felt that it was necessary to ban Viola due to her tools, while other countries did not.
  3. A while ago there was a topic in the Cervy MU thread where NA thought Cervy vs Pyrrha is a clear disadvantage, while EU thought it was even.
  4. Omega tends to be higher in tier lists than Pyrrha in EU, while it is the other way around in NA
The point I am trying to make, is that even with effort, a complete match up chart will be hard to achieve. We as a spread out community have different experiences with characters and their metagames, so when we have to reach a specific number for this MU list, there will be biased viewpoints. I find S/A/B to be superior because it is more of a generalization (e.g. we can all agree that Cervy is high tier but the numbers on the Pyrrha match up won't reach the same conclusion due to how we play the characters). That is the main problem I see with a MU list on an international level. S/A/B just seems to make more sense to me, but no harm in attempting the MU chart I suppose.
 
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WhYYZ

[10] Knight
WhYYZ, that's an interesting MUs table...but I don't really understand some of Astaroth numbers :

Astaroth 4-6 Nightmare
Astaroth 4-6 Maxi
Astaroth 3-7 Algol
Astaroth 3.5 - 6.5 Leixia
Astaroth 7-3 Aeon

Can you give me some explanations?
I feel that the whole change from SCIV to SCV didn't do astaroth good. JG isn't really risky and it makes some good tools (22_88B, 1AA/1AB, 44Ah, and 66Kh) semi-useless.
Asta v Nightmare is mainly because Nightmare can outpoke upclose or outzone at mid-range.
Asta v Maxi might be 5-5 as my knowledge of maxi is REALLY low. Hilde, maxi, voldo, xiba and Hilde should be redone by someone who knows those characters really well.

Algol and leixia can pretty much get away with murder because Asta can't punish at all. Algol can Shoryuken and even though it's -22! the risk reward is really in his favor. Leixia can 3B all day long. only K punishes for 14 damage which is no that great.

Asta v Aeon is just damage. 6.5-3.5 might be a bit better imo.
 
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