Why don't you JG?

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Signia

Signia

[13] Hero
These questions go out to casual players and top players alike:

Why don't you JG? I've seen and heard countless complaints about how strong offensive play, pressing buttons, attacking, whatever you want to call it, is. And yet, the same players have overlooked the equalizer to SCV's offensive gameplay -- The Just Guard. The best defensive option ever.

Why don't you JG obvious strings like BEs? How about difficult ones like fast BBs?

Why don't you JG when you're at disadvantage but are afraid to move? Why should you ever (G) for more than half a second when you could be doing JGG at the timing of the fastest moves that can reach you, or hold G to stay safe against fast moves but then briefly release and JG for a slow/delayed move? I said this back in pre-release that's there's no reason not to do this, at least when you're planning on standing still anyway.

Why don't you JG slow things on reaction?

Why don't you JG in the neutral game? I see you moving around, and then guarding when you think an attack is coming. Why not JGG? That's right, whenever you're going from not guarding to guarding... JG. Tell me why not.

JG's active period is from frame 2 minimum to frame 8. Why do you think JGing leaves you open to anything more than holding G for more than 8 frames does? If you've practiced JG, you are not distracted by doing it any more than holding G does. You don't need to waste mental resources by confirming the JG -- the animation lasts 14 frames, and when a successful JG occurs, you knew it would happen back when you recognized the starting animation of your opponent's attack, right? It was in the set of moves that you aiming for.

Why don't you know your JG frames? It's another column to memorize, but hey NH frames are almost always the same as CH frames now, and there's a clear pattern to how many frames you get. The longer the blockstun, the more frames you get. In fact, the blockstun of a move can be found by subtracting the frames on block from the frames on JG and adding 14. So, the JG frames will be the same as the frames on block minus the blockstun frames plus 14. It's as if they whiffed in your face, except you're stuck for 14 frames while the blue glow goes away. Choosing the correct punish is fairly intuitive because of this.

Why don't you dash in and JG when you want to get in but want to counter the pokes that might be used to keep you out?

Why don't you cover you whiffs with JG instead of holding guard for the case that their whiff punish is too late?

Why don't you JG at disadvantage and then steal back the initiative if no immediate attack came?

Why don't you attempt JGs whenever it's off cooldown and aren't attacking?

What about JG-duck? JG-Step? Step-JG?

Why don't you JG CEs?

Why don't you Ukemi JG?

Why don't you A+B+K stand-up JG?

Why don't you GI JG?

Viola and ZWEI players, why don't you JG the GIs?


I can't do all these yet, but why is nobody even close to mastering these JG techniques? I always thought that in a competitive community, if it is possible, then someone will master it. And yet, some players do without it completely. Why...
 
This community likes to not practice things. At one point you couldn't do a string on Woahhzz or myself. but I've stopped playing this game for some time now so I cant do it anymore.
 
Signia said:
Why don't you JG? I've seen and heard countless complaints about how strong offensive play, pressing buttons, attacking, whatever you want to call it, is. And yet, the same players have overlooked the equalizer to SCV's offensive gameplay -- The Just Guard. The best defensive option ever.

Why don't you JG obvious strings like BEs? How about difficult ones like fast BBs?

Why don't you JG when you're at disadvantage but are afraid to move? Why should you ever (G) for more than half a second when you could be doing JGG at the timing of the fastest moves that can reach you, or hold G to stay safe against fast moves but then briefly release and JG for a slow/delayed move? I said this back in pre-release that's there's no reason not to do this, at least when you're planning on standing still anyway.

Why don't you JG slow things on reaction?

Why don't you JG in the neutral game? I see you moving around, and then guarding when you think an attack is coming. Why not JGG? That's right, whenever you're going from not guarding to guarding... JG. Tell me why not.

JG's active period is from frame 2 minimum to frame 8. Why do you think JGing leaves you open to anything more than holding G for more than 8 frames does? If you've practiced JG, you are not distracted by doing it any more than holding G does. You don't need to waste mental resources by confirming the JG -- the animation lasts 14 frames, and when a successful JG occurs, you knew it would happen back when you recognized the starting animation of your opponent's attack, right? It was in the set of moves that you aiming for.

Why don't you know your JG frames? It's another column to memorize, but hey NH frames are almost always the same as CH frames now, and there's a clear pattern to how many frames you get. The longer the blockstun, the more frames you get. In fact, the blockstun of a move can be found by subtracting the frames on block from the frames on JG and adding 14. So, the JG frames will be the same as the frames on block minus the blockstun frames plus 14. It's as if they whiffed in your face, except you're stuck for 14 frames while the blue glow goes away. Choosing the correct punish is fairly intuitive because of this.

Why don't you dash in and JG when you want to get in but want to counter the pokes that might be used to keep you out?

Why don't you cover you whiffs with JG instead of holding guard for the case that their whiff punish is too late?

Why don't you JG at disadvantage and then steal back the initiative if no immediate attack came?

Why don't you attempt JGs whenever it's off cooldown and aren't attacking?

What about JG-duck? JG-Step? Step-JG?

Why don't you JG CEs?

Why don't you Ukemi JG?

Why don't you A+B+K stand-up JG?

Why don't you GI JG?
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WHY DON'T YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP?

WHY DON'T YOU WIN EVO?

WHY DON'T YOU GET LAID?

WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A SEAT OVER THERE?

WHY DON'T YOU DO THE HOKEY POKEY?

WHY DON'T YOU BANG 7 GRAM ROCKS?
 
Honestly, this is the worst sort of straw man. You're castigating a mythical "you guys" who allegedly don't JG, but frankly I don't know who these great swaths of people are. JG is a rather significant part of most very good players' repertoires, and this thread seems much more like a way to remind people that you're "the JG guy" than to provoke anything substantive or useful. Oh, and as a bonus, you gave Ramon an opportunity to brag about being so awesome he can't be bothered to play. Again. 10/10 stunning success.
 
First i didn´t because i tough it wasn´t worth it, but after some time i started to try and is really useful.

Is kinda hard to use at first, but then you just get used, and is so cool and satisfactory using it correctly.

It is a great defense, i reccomend everyone to just try it, it may be hard at the beggining but you get it with practice, is not as hard as it looks like =)
 
Hot Rod Dave said:
I dont JG cause Im an online player. Trying to JG online (at least for me), is like a sore dick. You cant beat it unless youre into the pain.
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I play online too and use it a lot there, what is the problema in your case? Lag, perhaps?
 
Hates said:
Honestly, this is the worst sort of straw man. You're castigating a mythical "you guys" who allegedly don't JG, but frankly I don't know who these great swaths of people are. JG is a rather significant part of most very good players' repertoires, and this thread seems much more like a way to remind people that you're "the JG guy" than to provoke anything substantive or useful. Oh, and as a bonus, you gave Ramon an opportunity to brag about being so awesome he can't be bothered to play. Again. 10/10 stunning success.
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This is also to provoke discussion about some of the JG techniques I mentioned. I wanted to address the idea that JGG opens yourself up to throws and is therefore not something you do all the time. I really want to know what the drawback to using these techniques and what a game with master-JGers looks like. Is it the nonstop attacking frenzy like people say? Or is it a far deeper game than any SC or 3D fighting game for that matter?

This is also to tell people about the applications of JG or least get people to imagine the possibilities. It's strange to me that so few players aspire to mastering such overtly powerful tech. That said, the tech I listed gets harder and harder and more and more nonessential as you go down, and I myself can't do most of the stuff on the bottom (yet?). Still, the community's progress in mastering these is far less than I expected it to be. I see whole tournament matches go by with nobody flashing blue. Nobody's moving because they haven't discouraged movement killers with JG, nobody's doing any kind of JG option-select... Super weird to me...

So is it me that's wrong? Or is it THE WORLD... I just assumed it's probably me, so tell me why, 8WR.

JG cooldown is 29 frames according to Noodals in an old thread I found, for those who are interested. http://8wayrun.com/threads/noodalls-investigates-jg-and-some-gi.10645/
 
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Signia said:
Stuff
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See, now that would have been a more provocative first post!

In my estimation, JG doesn't make scv deeper than anything evar--instead, it's the only thing that (sorta) keeps the mashfest in check. In practical terms, waiting to JG opens you up to lows, throws, and syncopated attacks, so it isn't a universal solution, especially when you consider that lows and throws are already integral to scv-brand attack frenzies.

As for mastering the tech, it's a question of diminishing returns. JGing out of crucial strings is first-order JG skill, which many, many people have. It should also be noted that JGing strings ought always to be a tactic of last resort, since you're almost always better off ducking/stepping strings when possible, as you get similar (or better) rewards with significantly less opportunity for human error.

The next level is OS JGing in particular windows of blockstun, hitstun, or other set situations as described above. I think this is pretty common, too, and it's damn useful.

Beyond that, we start getting to the JGs that people don't do regularly, and this is what I mean by diminishing returns. Take ukemi JGs, for example: let's just say it takes X hours to master this technique to the point where you can do it fairly reliably in a tournament setting. You spent that time learning a specific technique for specific situations in specific matchups. It's risky, too; even after proficiency is achieved, you're taking hefty damage on the occasions you do fail it. Contrast this with spending the same X hours toward just becoming a stronger fundamental player. This has a universal application (all MUs, all situations, etc, because we're talking general ability here), and will likely help you avoid being in situations where JUGs are called for to begin with.

Seeing as how people have a finite amount of time, I think it's pretty reasonable for people to delay or avoid learning the more esoteric JG situation in favor of developing stronger fundamentals.
 
Not worth it. That fact that you can JG pretty much everything but grabs is bullshit. Anyway, I'm too lazy to sit in training mode and figure timing and where to use, etc.
 
I can't answer your big question, but Ukemi JGing is trickly as hell i've tried ukemi-JG against rugis 66A+B online and end up not doing anything at all but dying. Just guarding the beginning of certain characters CEs is super highly risky online (nightmares would be the easiest) honestly if you have to JG try JGing the last hit for advantage. Oh i didn't see the last part of your question how many JGs do i have to do to be considered a master at them? i have over 16,000 just guards online. best move i JGed is maxi's B+K B B B B B Ba There's no such thing as nobody even close. its just... im that popular_I guess?
 
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The main thing about JG is it freezes you in place if you want to commit to doing one. If someone's paying attention, you make yourself into throw bait that way if you're trying to do them raw in the open.

OS JG opens up a similar issue. Yes, you can do it, but if someone pops that on me, I start throwing them. It usually discourages them from doing it much after that and I can go back to my regular game without having to worry about it any more.

It is really annoying during strings. Not always the best option even then. So many people eat ROAK, 4BBK etc because they try to be cool and pop a JG then automatically assume they have a free punish only to get kicked in the face.
 
Jimbonator said:
Damn I thought we were past this dumbass phase, guess not.
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Still some delicious fresh meat left.

Also I try to JG as much as I can, but to rely on it for anything more than punishing a string or other obvious move is impractical in my eyes. You would be spending too much time guessing where to pop a JG to play effectively, and all your opponent has to do is change his rhythm and you're already thrown off your game.
 
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