Talim is almost as bad as SC4 ver.

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darkfender said:
Agree but you are totally missing the point.
NM has insane damage and Oki game paired with tons of panic buttons even from KD.
That means to win a round you generally need to win 8-10 guesses opposed to 2-3 there is not even needs to know frames and stuff against light hitters.
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If you don't know Talim's frames she can run you over.
 
Talim is a very bad character. Her lack of range and damage is not compensated by her speed. Most characters, even long range characters have just as fast moves. Not to mention she takes a lot of damage. Most midrange people can easily push her out of distance on bloc. She doesn’t have very good moves to close the gap and her AA mixups are fairly easy to read. she doesn’t have very effective lows. If you are going to play Talim, know that you are playing an uphill battle.

She will struggle against average players just due to her limitations and poor selection of moves.
 
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Skiegh said:
Stance-wise... she really isn't particularly evasive.
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The theme of the character being evasive isn't satisfied by her stances, because her ability to evade with stance and her payoff for doing so is strictly worse than just using the universal evasive options. WNC is worse than simply mashing 88/22. It only steps a short distance a single time so will fail to avoid a lot of verticals and has a strict timing requirement for the ones it can avoid. That timing requirement makes it almost unusable as evasion following an attack that cancels into stance, because you can't adjust the timing of WNC. It has canned timing and if that timing doesn't line up with the attack, which it almost never does, you're just going to get hit. You can't repeat the spin to avoid a slow vertical, you can't delay the spin to avoid a slow vertical. Then in the event that you actually do avoid something your reward for doing so is WORSE than just stepping with 88/22.

A lot of this could be changed if lethals were reworked. WNC K lethal on evading an attack is awkward to land anyway for the above reasons, but when it does land it also leads to meagre damage. You get less damage than from WNC B, which in turn gets less damage than 88B:B or a 6A+B lethal. If she's supposed to be an evasive character with evasive stances why aren't you rewarded properly for using them?

Mitsurugi gets to lethal hit into 80 damage from any regular sidestep into a fast 88A, even against moves which recover quickly. If Talim could delay or repeat her WNC dodge so that WNC K was a more viable vertical punish, then improve the lethal state after lethal WNC K to allow better conversion on that hit then she'd feel more evasive.

Most of her lethals are of questionable value as it is. She has whiff punish LHs on a 44A that doesn't have enough range to whiff punish. An incredibly precise spacing based LH on a move that is otherwise useless from a spacing she never wants to be in. A LH on the comedy banana peel slip. Where's the high crush lethal on Twin Baraw lift? If you successfully low profile with it right now you won't get a CH and it'll just KD with no follow up. Give her the lethal conversions for the sort of evasive play you want the character theme to represent and she'd feel more like a complete character.
 
Besides tinkering with some RE cancels, I admit to not using it too much. If only because if I do happen to need to RE itself, the game never accepts my input, and just does what it wants. So uh... it's a guessing game I have no control over at that point.

Practice mode got me all excited for a second when I was testing post GI, RE-WNC cancels to cover both A+B lethals and regular launcher follow-ups, buuut, that was just training mode being bad and slow. Shit don't work, hahaha. Too bad too, that would have been quite a game changer for her, as people do like to GI her. A bit obnoxious though, I admit. Sort of glad it doesn't work, the butthurt levels would be through the roof against her if it did. Might still work on some character who has a slow A+B.
 
Gotta utilize it more, it's preeeeeety good. Forces the opponent to use certain attacks to MAYBE beat it. And her RE damage can be pretty good.
 
darkfender said:
Agree but you are totally missing the point.
NM has insane damage and Oki game paired with tons of panic buttons even from KD.
That means to win a round you generally need to win 8-10 guesses opposed to 2-3 there is not even needs to know frames and stuff against light hitters.
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No, I'm not.

That video is as disingenuous a representation of Nightmare as those videos of Talim landing 3 empty Wind cannons and taking a round.

Technically Talim only needs 2-3 correct guesses too with Wind cannon existing, am I right?

Looking at a character in such a limited bubble like that is ridiculous, and won't give anyone a good idea of how effective a character is, period. This game has a serious problem of random people who all think their main is bad even when they've got really good tools and I don't know why. Perhaps because they're not able to win a match with their own skill, so it must be the character. It's extremely hard this early on to place any characters. And honestly in 6 the balance seems a lot closer than it ever has been previously in the series. I've been making a world tour of the characters and every single one so far has some great tools, and significant weaknesses. It's better we don't share videos that are completely misrepresentative of any character's actual play and pretend that they prove anything at all. They don't, and they're entirely useless. It just perpetuates a bad attitude.
 
Man this game is fun.

Talim is cheap as shit. But every character is cheap as shit. Old school design philosophy is great.

I wonder where she'll fall as time goes on, but at the end of the day, she's still got some broken shit. Loving it.

thugish_pond said:
Gotta utilize it more, it's preeeeeety good. Forces the opponent to use certain attacks to MAYBE beat it. And her RE damage can be pretty good.
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Yeeeah, it's on my to-do list to finally lab RE. Ugh... not a mechanic I adore using. I prefer the pace of the game to be as it is. Hooowever, it is there, so I should learn it. Everytime I win an RE I'm like... "okay... now what?" I'm sure there's probably combos I should be doing.

When and if I do get stuck in RE, I usually just guard, or go for dodges for boom-boom. You know... when the game isn't arbitrarily picking options for me. (Seriously, why the hell does it do that?)
 
darkfender said:
Agree but you are totally missing the point.
NM has insane damage and Oki game paired with tons of panic buttons even from KD.
That means to win a round you generally need to win 8-10 guesses opposed to 2-3 there is not even needs to know frames and stuff against light hitters.
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And people still pretend NM isn't hard to deal with.
 
Destinizish said:
No, I'm not.

That video is as disingenuous a representation of Nightmare as those videos of Talim landing 3 empty Wind cannons and taking a round.

Technically Talim only needs 2-3 correct guesses too with Wind cannon existing, am I right?
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Dude, do you even play SC competitively? Wind Canon is launcher punishable, almost all of NM launchers are not, and worst offender being 66BB which is PLUS on block.

Just stop talking please, or use real data to support your claims. Talk in frames and real tournament gameplay, not shit coming out of your ass.
 
thinkingofaname said:
Dude, do you even play SC competitively? Wind Canon is launcher punishable, almost all of NM launchers are not, and worst offender being 66BB which is PLUS on block.

Just stop talking please, or use real data to support your claims. Talk in frames and real tournament gameplay, not shit coming out of your ass.
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You missed the point entirely...

He's saying that video of Nightmare armoring through Talim's 6K over and over again doesn't prove he's overpowered. Same way Talim hitting Wind Cannon over and over doesn't make her overpowered.
 
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