Free Punishment

Yeah, I figured this out a little bit ago. I should have said something, but I don't come to the forums so much anymore, lol. Additionally, I have a few typos in my punishment thread against Voldo. I'll fix them when I get the chance.
 
Also, I'm now sure that CL/WP 8kB is more frame than WP/CL K.

What about SW 6B ? i13 ?
Then, when I'm able to punish with SW 6B, I should be able to punish with SW 6B9 too right ?
How ever, Cervantes 2A+B for example can be punished by SW 6B but not SW 6B9...
Is it because SW 6B9 is a high and SW 6B a mid ?
 
Yeah, you can't punish moves that end in tech crouch with high attacks, unfortunately. It's like with Ivy's 22K. It is -18 on block, you will punish it with 4K, but not 6K or SW 6B9K for example.

SW 6 is i14, and even though she has faster moves (like SW 4B or 6B9K/8B+K,K) this is the only move at her disposal that will punish Cervantes' 2A+B.

Do you have any success with CL/WP 8kB as punisher? I have gotten to a point where I rarely use it, because I'm afraid I will get CL/WP 9B instead =/ (this move is so slow that people can probably GI it on reaction, like Amy's 66A...)
 
I train a lot with the 8kB move, yes.
Still not consistent, but soon or later I hope to be able to punish in real match with it.
 
In a match, I only punish with 8kB against moves that I have practiced with. Practicing against a move which is exactly -13 needs precision makes me think even Setsuka's standing JF umbrella is easier than 8kB because it can be buffered. This needs a mixture between a buffering 8k and timing B. Where as doing 8kB in one command is always harder straight after blockstun.
 
I cam here to finally sit down and go through this and I'm kinda surprised it's not finished, much less there's no entry for Ivy to punish Ivy. I guess I'll try and see what I can get but the reason I mainly came here is to find the bets way to punish CL 214 after being raped by it online.
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I've already started working on the Ivy one im up to all the sword moves. takes a lot of time with her huge move list and 3 stances. Also finding some things that suggest frames in the wiki are off by a few. 4B is acting as i13 not i12 for me. As well some moves that are marked as really unsafe are not as unsafe as they're put down to be. Could be conditional issues.

I'm also taking time to make a HUGE Ivy tutorial meant for printing out. It will have Frame Data, SG data, Combos, Notes on stance difference (stepping, ie), different schools of playing Ivy. As well there will be a portion for EVERY match up that will include punish list, frame traps and gimicks to watch for, and any notes that may be helpful.

...also 3A in all stances answers 214B without getting evaded.

I got the idea at Evo. One of the guys that came down to train had a binder like me, but had minor notes for every match up that he could quick reference. plus its nice not to have to memorize all this by having too look at many threads. It'll also force me to fill in the empty holes in data. So any help on getting the rest of the punish list down would be helpful.
 
I was actually thinking of doing sort of the same thing, except with Voldo. It's good to know i'm not the only crazy person out there, haha.
 
Well its gonna be a step by step process, today I finish all of Ivy's coiled punishes, tomorrow whip and everything else. Then I'll make a list of frame traps and gimicks to watch out for like CL 214. This will ultimately be a valuable tool for pro players and also help give new players a huge base to develop from.
 
Well got the CL stance knocked out, hopefully ill have it all done and can put it up here. I found a ton of shit i didn't know. Ring always told me CL A+BA+K was -22 and I couldn't figure out why since I can never punish it and I knew sometime the 3rd hit whiffed...now i know how to force it to whiff. I haven't seen this explained anywhere so here it goes:

Block the 1st and 2nd hit, let go of block and stand. The 3rd hit will whiff giving you a huge punish opportunity. If you hold block or keep crouched you will still get hit or block it.

I also learned that sometimes you can't land CL 234BB after 3B. I only found this on one punish, but I found it odd. I had to put CL 3B~B+K, SW 6B8 as the best punish.

I also have a big entry on destroying 214 and all its possible mix ups.

It's in Microsoft word because I wanted access to a tables and I wanted it to be a very print friendly guide. I'll later put this on google sheets or somehow get it in the wiki. but here's a link to what i got (scroll to page 2-4).

The Ultimate Ivy Guide
 
Well I did a VERY indepth punish list for Ivy vs Ivy. Jesus is that a huge list. I also included multiple punishes for purposes of max damage or preferred frames with similar damage. As well I did every possible variation and multiple way to approach it. WP FC3a+bA+B for example has punishes before and after 2nd hit as well as a step punish you can also apply if you choice not to block. Also includes guaranteed aGi's with WP A+B and all escapes with 214 (yes you can sometimes escape with it when step wont work...but for only 2 moves.) I even included guaranteed grab, iCS/SS punishes as well.

I'll be figuring out how i want to put this up on the web besides a Microsoft Word .docx since most people aren't gonna wanna really download it just to view it. It's a LOT of text to transfer and I despise arranging it with out tables or some graphic organization. I'll see what i can do with the wiki.

The Ultimate Ivy Guide
Remember start on page 2.

The best part of this is I got a punish list for all lag tactics (spare 1B which can't be punished by Ivy):

SW 22K/2A+K: SW 6/CL/WP 4K or WS K
CL A+BA+K: Block 1st and 2nd, stand unguarded 3rd to force whiff - SW 22B combo/CL 3B combo/WP 66B combo
CL 214/B: SW 9B, g9B
WP 11A/SE 11A: SW/CL 6A+B/WP 6Ba+b
SE K: SW 1K/CL 1BB+K/WP 2B

Biggest find was the forced whiffing of CL A+BA+K. I don't think anyone has ever mentioned how to do it. Some characters might get guaranteed, but with Ivy this is method must be done to force the whiff. So check other characters and what not. As well the HUGE punish for both this and WP 11A/SE A+K is really gonna help verse lag spammers.
 
Davo87 said:
In a match, I only punish with 8kB against moves that I have practiced with. Practicing against a move which is exactly -13 needs precision makes me think even Setsuka's standing JF umbrella is easier than 8kB because it can be buffered. This needs a mixture between a buffering 8k and timing B. Where as doing 8kB in one command is always harder straight after blockstun.
Click to expand...

what is 8kB is it i13
 
I think it is actually, but only if you can do it consistently.8kBK does 25 dmg and it's +3 on hit. Better than AA in CL (same speed but 0 on hit and less damage) and faster than every move in WP (except K, which is negative on hit). Having something like that in Whip is priceless. If you can't do it consistently, it's very risky for obvious reasons (9B or 9K coming out when it shouldn't :P ) ...
 
Yeah I tried doing, but I can't get a feel for the sweet spot on how to pull it off. As well one mistake could probably out weight the benefits. It's the same as 5JF for me. Sure it yields better rewards, but does it surpass the penalty for failure to perform it? Beyond an Air Grab I think I'd rather use block or use another attack and put faith in consistency. As well if the think whiffs or is blocked it's SUPER unsafe.
 
I started a wiki article for punishment. Half way through Ivy vs Ivy punishment. Try to follow the way I set it up if you include more. I had to do it in a different manner than you would another character due to her 3 stances and limited table space. Creating 3 separate tables for each stance would be impractical so you'll see the solution I came up with (it's fully explained at the top of the article).

I'll get the next half done tomorrow and hopefully start transferring the already existing ones.
 
Wow jesus. I'm going all out on this wiki. I'm completely retesting all the known info. Why? Because I'm finding stuff we didn't know. In the wiki I have listed MULTIPLE punishes; includes Gi, aGI, Step, Jump, Crouch, alternatives for specific purposes, and most importantly GLITCHES. I'm finding consistent hit box glitches specific to Ivy (sometimes).

vs. Ivy
SW 1KBK block 1st hit only, let go of G, stand, and 3rd whiffs.
CL A+BA+K: block 1st and 2nd hit only, let go of G, stand, and 3rd whiffs.
CL/WP BB: SW 1K/3K/6K, CL/WP 6K all some how can be done in between the 1st and 2nd B!
WS A+B: can be done significanlty safer on hit by controlling how the blades hit and which ones do connect. This is based on the type of hit stun it causes, not by the move hitting late in it's animation.

vs. Cassandra
6AAA: Tap down during block stun of 1st hit just as the 2nd hit is about to land. This will force a whiff.

I suggest checking it out. Its taking forever to get all info in, but it's very very thorough. It'll be awhile before all characters get in but I'm adding a lil bit all the time till I 100% it with all characters.

I've also been experiencing a very odd distance glitch. When testing CL 6A+B punish. I attempted g9B. It wont land because it barely misses the hit box. However on occasion she does nail it. When testing to see if 6K was a punish for it, it whiffed. Then I got it to hit. I found if i mashed 6K very early it would always land. I assumed this must be a just frame punish. When I tried the g9B punish, I set my stick to turbo to ensure a perfect g9B. It would not hit. This being said...somehow there's a way to slightly control push back. In past tests i got a move to one time work and never again because of range (grabs usually). Some one look into this.
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[edit] Well i think what it is with 6K is that you have to delay 1 or 2 frames before punishing. I watched closely and you can visually time it so the foot connects with the opponent Ivy's arm coming back. Too soon and it misses. As for the g9B I'm torn. This maybe another 1 frame delay case. I was having lots of success by doing 8 just before i did 9B. Still inconsistent but somethin was working (G89B). Something's odd about g9B the range fluctuates. sometimes it seems longer and other times she does a half assed mini jump version that whiffs a lot of guaranteed follow ups. Any data been found on the cause of this?
 
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