1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Reasons for Sieg vs Hilde being 6/4 in Sieg's favour -
At Hilde's optimum range, sieg performs better.
At close range, Sieg performs better.
at mid range, Hilde performs better.
iagA is honestly a beast of a move for hilde to deal with. At tip range, even if you C3A aGI it, you won't hit him and he can just do it again or B6. You can't step iagA where as he can keep stepping your C3B.
Since most of Hilde's damage comes from step punish, aGI punish, or throws, the fact that sieg is mostly safe on his options is a bad thing. especially since Sieg's SG damage beats Hilde's outright.

Reasons for Rock vs Hilde being 6/4 in Rock's favour -
It has very little to do with the fact she can't doom combo him, but a lot to do with him having advantage on her.
C3A is a full tech crouch from frame 6 or something. Rock's 2B+G_A+G is i12. A smart rock can punish C3A with crouch throw.
Throws reset charges. This does NOT mean that if you throw her and she guesses wrong, you've reset her charge, since the throw animation will just recharge it for her. It means if she guesses RIGHT, you know EXACTLY which charge she DOESN"T have. This is a huge advantage when you know that 2B+G beats C3A And that any normal throw will beat C3B.

As for Gol vs Hilde.
I don't really know the stats, but Alex was telling me when I was over there that he doesn't go Gol vs Hilde anymore because Cedric found out that 66B rips through bubble shield. At close range, if Gol does the 4A+B_[A+B] and Hilde Step C2A_AA's it, even if she's slightly slow in releasing the C2A and Gol blocks, the Block stun lasts long enough that the Bubble will hit Gol. Even if it doesn't, she can try a throw attempt with no fear of punishment.
 
Hates: I have a feeling you're right about hilde. Feel like throwing some Cervy matchups at me? can just say the numbers, no need to explain unless you feel like it or if people object to a grade you give
 
i said 6-4 asta favor vs NM, either you read it wrong or i goofed

as fyi french have it with 7-3 asta favor

edit: I checked and I didn't put in wrong numbers. maybe you are thinking of algol vs asta which i gave algol 7-3 advantage for
 
Tiamat said:
Hates: I have a feeling you're right about hilde. Feel like throwing some Cervy matchups at me? can just say the numbers, no need to explain unless you feel like it or if people object to a grade you give
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Cervantes:

vs Asta 5-5
vs LM 4-6
vs X 4-6
vs Hilde 4-6
vs Maxi 6-4
vs Siegfried 6-4
vs Cass 5-5
vs Sophie 5-5
vs Taki 5-5
vs Yoshi 7-3
vs Mitsu 6-4
vs Zas 6-4
vs Algol 4-6
vs Amy 4-6
vs Starkiller 6-4
vs Ivy 6-4
vs Kilik 5-5
vs Mina 7-3
vs NM 6-4
vs Raph 4-6
vs Rock 6-4
vs Yun 5-5
vs Setsuka 5-5
vs Talim 5-5
vs Tira 6-4
vs Vader 6-4
vs Voldo 5-5
vs Yoda 7-3
 
I disagree with a few of Nori's numbers. Here are some off the top of my head, with an additional explanation where I feel it's warranted:

vs Asta is at least 6-4. Pirate has speed and punishment edge in this match.

vs LM is prolly 6-4, too

vs X is 4-6 or worse =\ iFC 3B wrecks shop when you can't evade it 100% reliably, and she's still obnoxiously fast.

vs Hilde...hard to say. I think the pirate gives her more trouble than a lot of the cast, but, that said, it's still probably 4-6

vs Maxi 7-3 or 8-2. I think Maxi is just plain bad.

vs Taki I'd say 6-4. He shuts down a lot of her PO shenanigans, but she still has SC2-esque sidestep.

vs Yoshi maybe 6-4 or 5-5

vs Algol 5-5

vs Amy 4-6 or 5-5...it's close. This match turns into baroque nested mind-games. Alex and I end up thinking 50 steps ahead.

vs NM 7-3 (I think NM is bad, too =P)

Dunno why Cervantes would be disadvantaged vs Raph, but I've only played a few Raph players so I suppose I will reserve judgment.

vs Yun is definitely 6-4 or 7-3. Soul gauge damage doesn't make up for overall sucky tendencies.

vs Talim 6-4

vs Vader I think it's 4-6 or even worse...step issues =\ Then again, it might also be the way my pirate playstyle matches up against JOP's Vader. He positively obliterated me. I had to switch to NM to get wins on star wars guy =(

vs Voldo is significant disadvantage for Cervantes. 3-7 or 4-6. The pirate's poor step essentially compensates for one of Voldo's only real weaknesses: linearity. Moreover, he can auto-evade cheese his way out of a lot of nasty mixups, has dumb guaranteed back throws for no reason, and can punish a lot of moderately unsafe stuff -hard-.
 
Hates said:
vs Vader I think it's 4-6 or even worse...step issues =\ Then again, it might also be the way my pirate playstyle matches up against JOP's Vader. He positively obliterated me. I had to switch to NM to get wins on star wars guy =(
Click to expand...

-Well, EP thinks Cervantes owns Vader and JOP thinks the matchup is 5-5. You have to understand, losing to a guy that's really good w/him (and how many really good Vaders are out there, honestly?) when you don't know the matchup is different than you going in and KNOWING the matchup. I got annihilated by the same Vader, but only a while was I told I could punish this and that haha. If anything, I think it's 5-5

-LM does great against Cervantes. Why do you disagree? Crawl destroys anything he has. iGDR will beat it, but he still has great tools to compete w/him (against Cervantes)

-I honestly doubt Amy 5-5. She's fast and safe. Overall, it's a chess match but w/2 people who know the matchup inside and out, I strongly feel it's 6-4 Amy.

-I'll take your word on Voldo as I have no Voldos around me. Nor do I have a Setsuka or Yun. I'm willing to change my numbers on those

-Asta is another matchup JOP and EP feel is 5-5. Unless Asta can throw you, he can't beat you. You have to be smart about ducking against him and he's beatable. He has no great mids to get you to stand up. Bullrush is nice, 4B is nice but that's it. I'll take those over a command throw all day. And nobody is going to break them all. Asta can crouch throw a blocked 2a+b and 1k but again, that's it.

-vs Algol, 5-5? I got to hear this
 
hates: I'll add the ranks but I'm gonna go with the more conservative rank every time you listed two different ranks. This means whatever is closer to 5-5 wins out. For example you said cervy vs amy is 4-6 or 5-5, so I'm putting 5-5 down for now.

we agree on the algol vs cervy rank

Nightmare I seriously doubt is that bad against cervy. I am certain it is not as bad as it was in SC3. aB is no longer guarnateed vs GS, he lost his A+B (though it became WS A), and his tracking is not as good from what I can tell. 3A+B isn't as scary when counterhit does nothing. If nightmare steps left he easily dodges 2A+B and 1K. what does cervy have to track that side besides 3A+B?

for now I'll change to 6-4 cervy advantage

revised:

as always, please tell me if you see inconsistent numbers/errors
 

Attachments

Algol vs Hilde is 4/6 in Hilde's favor imo, some may disagree but I feel Hilde has very good tools against a lot of algols main tools. Backdashing vs hilde is a lot worse than the rest of the cast because of her long range and ringout capabilities. Algol's poor step makes it harder to deal with Hilde's charge moves. Hilde has a lot of moves she can use to get around or punish the bubble shield. One of the few things in Algols favor is that you position bubbles to prevent ringouts which can be very useful in this match.
 
I don't think Gol vs Cervy is 6-4, I kinda agree with hates on the 5-5.
6A+K destroys any Gol who tries to use a bubble, and Algol without bubbles isn't super duper scary.
Also tia looking at your NM matchups, are you sure Cass vs NM is 5-5? Granted I haven't played that matchup yet, but Cass' dodgy hitbox negates all tech-traps NM has. It's basically the same as why Cass has an easier time against raph since Cass 2B+K beats every option raph has out of Prep since it's either too fast or will duck the mid.
 
Way to hear out other peoples opinions on Cervantes Tiamat. Hates isn't the only Cervantes player lol

Runis said:
6A+K destroys any Gol who tries to use a bubble, and Algol without bubbles isn't super duper scary.
Click to expand...
6A+K, the extremely slow unblockable that anybody with a pulse can just duck? Really?
 
nori: if it makes you feel better, the rank of 6-4 (your rank) is the one that got put down for asta vs nm, not Hates 7-3. I AM looking at what you say

I am also skeptical that vader would have advantage vs cervy. vader is kinda a bum in a lot of ways


runis: I actually think NM vs Cass is nightmare's favor but I'm trying to be conservative here so it gets 5-5. lol. he can abuse the crap out of her range + tracking issues

alex: that's the rank I expected, will add later.
 
Tiamat said:
nori: if it makes you feel better, the rank of 6-4 (your rank) is the one that got put down, not Hates 7-3. I AM looking at what you say
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No, I'm not saying you even have to put MINE down. Again, I nor Hates should be the final word on any char until some other people who might have more experience against a char have chimed in. I have lots of experience against Asta/Yoshi/LM/Amy/Kilik/Hilde and a few others, but Hates also has high level comp where he is at. All I'm saying is, let people debate a little before the numbers go in:)

And props on attempting to make the chart when really, none of us wanted to.
 
Hilde:

vs Asta 9-1
vs Cervantes 10-0
vs LM 10-0
vs X 10-0
vs Hilde 10-10
vs Maxi 10-0
vs Siegfried 10-0
vs Cass 10-0
vs Sophie 10-0
vs Taki 10-0
vs Yoshi 10-0
vs Mitsu 10-0
vs Zas 10-0
vs Algol 6-4
vs Amy 10-0
vs Starkiller 10-0
vs Ivy 10-0
vs Kilik 10-0
vs Mina 12-0
vs NM 10-0
vs Raph 10-0
vs Rock 10-0
vs Yun 10-0
vs Setsuka 10-0
vs Talim 10-0
vs Tira 10-0
vs Vader 10-0
vs Voldo 8-2
vs Yoda 9-1
 
Nori:
hmmmm...well they will be debated once they are up anyway. I figure this will be a self correcting process. for example, we need a lizardman's take on lizard vs cervy since both of you disagree about it.

I see you put cervy vs apprentice as 6-4 cervy favor and I totally agree so that will be added. apprentice has automatic disadvantage matchups vs sieg, nm, and cervy because of the throw issue. they all have lows better than him so when it's that hard for him to throw, he's gonna be having lotsa problems. not much reason they can't just chip him with lows till time up imo


edit: you are funny guy ceirnian XD
 
Nori said:
Cervantes:

vs Asta 5-5 6:4
vs LM 4-6 6:4, Cervy has enough options against crawl imo, 2A+B, WS A, 8[B+K], iTP, iGDR not a big issue imo. Especially iTP, even after a CRW A on Hit, evades everything
vs X 4-6 4:6
vs Hilde 4-6 4:6 or 3:7
vs Maxi 6-4 7:3
vs Siegfried 6-4 6:4
vs Cass 5-5 5:5
vs Sophie 5-5 4:6, Sophies 236B just owns him too much
vs Taki 5-5 6:4
vs Yoshi 7-3 6:4
vs Mitsu 6-4 6:4
vs Zas 6-4 6:4
vs Algol 4-6 4:6
vs Amy 4-6 4:6
vs Starkiller 6-4 6:4
vs Ivy 6-4 6:4
vs Kilik 5-5 4:6
vs Mina 7-3 6:4
vs NM 6-4 6:4
vs Raph 4-6 6:4
vs Rock 6-4 6:4
vs Yun 5-5 7:3
vs Setsuka 5-5 4:6
vs Talim 5-5 6:4
vs Tira 6-4 6:4
vs Vader 6-4 NO PS3
vs Voldo 5-5 4:6
vs Yoda 7-3 7:3
Click to expand...

I put mine in blue in the qoute. Dont think he has too many bad Matchups, nor does he have superior ones.

EDIT: Well, Color worked just perfect.
 
Tiamat said:
Nori:
hmmmm...well they will be debated once they are up anyway. I figure this will be a self correcting process. for example, we need a lizardman's take on lizard vs cervy since both of you disagree about it.

I see you put cervy vs apprentice as 6-4 cervy favor and I totally agree so that will be added. apprentice has automatic disadvantage matchups vs sieg, nm, and cervy because of the throw issue. they all have lows better than him so when it's that hard for him to throw, he's gonna be having lotsa problems. not much reason they can't just chip him with lows till time up imo


edit: you are funny guy ceirnian XD
Click to expand...

Yeah, the intent is to get some initial numbers and then have indepth discussions where the really experienced guys can chime in. At least that's the intent if Tiamat is doing what I think he's doing. Good job in any case. :)
 
Nori:

The Vader thing is playstyles...EP thinks Cervantes owns Vader because EP spams random shit all day long. Vader is no good at dealing with a fast-paced matchup. I think my Cervantes GOT owned because I suck at spamming random shit all day long (there really is a skill to it), so I could never speed the match up enough, and I ended up eating nasty shit, so perhaps we should split the difference and call it 5-5.

As for crawl stance...if that gives you any sort of trouble, it's the player and not the character. You can block and punish it without much trouble, provided you're not lagging. =P Apart from that, he's rather basic. Few real reasons to make you want to duck, etc.

I think Amy's 5-5ish because her range and damage (when she's not BT) kinda suck, and she has to play a slow game in order to beat Cervantes. He has tools that make some of her staples really risky, and I think she's overall overrated because of the adjustment period required before you can really hang with her.

With Astaroth, Cervantes can punish most of his decent moves pretty darn hard, and he's altogether faster than the big guy. You can lock him down with moves that leave you at neutral, etc.

As for Algol...6A+K does shut down bubbles really well. The slow ones, at least. Over Christmas, I did better against JOP's Algol than any of his other characters, and he admitted that I forced him to actually play. =P Here are the things that keep Cervantes in the match:
6A+K to stop bubbles, aB and iGDR to punish all sorts of stuff, 44B (Algol's 2A has piss poor range), etc. You can also get away with using a number of his more linear tools because Algol's step is ass.

Tiamat: I think Cervantes beats NM pretty hard because you can just, as in SC3, sit back and let him kill himself on you. He can't aB through GS mixups anymore, but he has a legit 2A now, which itself starts great mixups on Cervantes' behalf. I just don't feel pressured to do anything against Nightmare, particularly not now that his ringout potential has been diminished. I feel like I have to make at least 2 or 3 large mental errors in order to lose a round to him.
 
yay docvizzo got the colors to work right XD

I am thinking of making a new thread and just calling it "Matchup Ranking Project" or something. I could make a private group with invite only for discussions and it would be less cluttered I'm sure, but I'd rather not keep something like this from the general user base. Even if someone isn't well known they may have something important to contribute to discussion.

- docvizzo and hates both say cervy beats lizard compared to nori saying otherwise, so for now that one will stay as is
- amy on the other hand, docvizzo and nori both say she has 6-4 advantage but hates doesn't. I know he hasn't actually said anything about it here but the Cervy player here, Millionz, tends to do well vs Amys with Cervy. It really doesn't look bad from what I've seen firsthand so I'm gonna go with Hates here.
- Vader vs Cervy will be changed to 5-5, I find that easier to believe despite never actually seeing the matchup
 
Tiamat said:
yay docvizzo got the colors to work right XD

I am thinking of making a new thread and just calling it "Matchup Ranking Project" or something. I could make a private group with invite only for discussions and it would be less cluttered I'm sure, but I'd rather not keep something like this from the general user base. Even if someone isn't well known they may have something important to contribute to discussion.
Click to expand...

If you read my suggestion on the other side, its very similar to what you are going, but to keep it clean, we appoint a set of moderators made up of experienced players. They will be the final arbiters but anyone is allowed to chime it. That way you get the best of both worlds: A small set of people so the numbers converge without infinite discussion, but you also get the opportunity for input from the general populace. As an initial start, maybe the initial moderators can include:
You ( Tiamat )
Johnny Blaze
Shen Ou
Lau
OOFmatic
KDZ
Hayate

and maybe a few others. But of course you are free to do as you like.
 
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