1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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From Cha cha's list, I think Nightmare can go up one and Lizardman can drop one. A lot of people I know, including me, think Lizardman is dependent on moves that no one has seen before, making him a very gimmicky character. Nightmare, on the other hand, outperforms everyone else in the mid tier. I think Cervy deserves moving up too, so much of his stuff is safe, high damage and fast.
 
way to next page my reasoning thus far koala! lol. I will adress your claims after some healthy discussion on my last batch takes place- plz read below: *repost*

I list this again to get relevance back on track.

AkazukinChaCha said:
My early Tiers: BASED ON OBSERVED COMPETATIVE PLAY AND APPLICATION. Gimmicks matter right now, as to overbearing high/low/throw mix up games as few will adjust to them early on. I will try to explain each tier allocation.

A: (top) exceptional qualities, saftey, oki, soul gauge abuse and damage

Amy
Sophitia
Yoshimitsu
Cassandra

B: (upper)- Great damage, pressure, mix up game and safety or soul gauge abuse

Lizardman
Mitsurugi
Taki
Siegfried
Raphael


C: (upper mid) solid on damage, pressure, safety, some gimmicks to early abuse

Xianghua
Talim
Cervantes
Algol
Kilik
Setsuka
Ivy

D: (mid) no overbearing features, but solid damage and set ups, reasonable safety/range, often gimmick dependant, lacking at least one major requisite of those above them.

Astaroth
Voldo
Tira
Zasalamel
Nightmare
Yun
Maxi

E: (lower mid) gimmick depenant, poor damage and set ups, no outstanding positives to outweigh negatives

The Apprentice
Darth Vader
Seong Mina
Hilde

F: (bottom tier) huge negatives, inconsistant damage, subpar when compared to peers

Rock
Yoda

==============================================

Discuss. Sure a few could be moved a notch down, but right now I have arguably play more competative matches offline and online than just about anyone, and these are my observations that have held true so far.

cha cha
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So far people are arguing:

Why is Algol so low?- I replied earlier, look for it. He's not as good as those listed above him nor will his parlor tricks last.

Why is Hilde so low?- Right now, it may just be people not playing her to her full potential, but with the charges she lacks a good pressure game, oki and has no good outs from smart rushdown. Her damage is inconsisant, her linear moves have hit box issues, her throw game is much more average than made out to be and all of her 'high damage' is situational to say the least.
Disprove this tier placement with results, not conjecture.

Why is Sophie so high? Does this really need an explaination? Is there REALLY anyone who believes that every aspect of Sophies game is NOT Grade A beefy? Good damage, range and safety- check. Good speed and step game- check, an absolute soul gauge beast- check. Ring out and throw game a step above the rest- check, punishing whiffs and on block- check, oki and ability to maintain pressure- check. WHAT ABOUT HER ISN'T TOP TIER? 4B+K= END OF STORY.

Why is Taki so high? 9 frame A, one of the best punishing characters in the game STILL, amazing rushdown, safe on block, DIFFERENT not BAD oki games, still a great throw game, great combo damage and stun set ups. She lost a lot of GIMMICKS, but is still solid in every aspect of the game INCLUDING damage, which people just don't seem to get.

**REMEMBER**
Tiers are not the defining characteristic of the competative game. They are a guideline on how effective a character can BE. They don't account for your SKILL or lack there of, so the tiers won't help a bad Amy player beat a good Rock player. Tiers can't define why certain characters match-up better against higher tier characters and worse against lower ones. They are just a guideline, a provision for new and curious players to utilize when scoping how seriously they'd like to take a game; and they can use it to gauge how effective a character can be with minimal effort.
In the end I think tiers do more harm than good, since they warp the fragile psyche of the competative gamer and degenerate character selection based purely on a facetious heirarchy of character pecking order, giving hope to those who wish to take a shortcut on skill and abuse a "top character" rather than learn the system.

thanks

cha cha
 
Cha cha, for your tiers, are they listed within each tier in order, or just generally placed in the tier but not ordered within it?
 
Cirex said:
Windstar, if you could improve Hilde, how would you do it?

I personally think the damage on the charges is a bit lower than expected and her verticals could have slighty more tracking. Just as an example of how painful her verticals can be, with 1B you will miss a target if the lance hits between the rival's legs. That happens quite often against Maxi, Astaroth and Rock.
I don't think there's any other move that suffers from this "feature".
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Raphael's move has this 'feature' since his appearance in SC II.

And Hilde is already strong, check out this combo by wil:
C3 B, 44K, C2 BB, C3 A, C2 BB, C2 AA = 101~109
CH FC C3 AKB, 44K, C2 BB, C3 A, C2BB, C2 AA = 93
 
Damn, nice numbers. Tier right now might also depend on ease of use and easy reward though. I know Hilde's hard to pick up at this time. I don't if a constant string of counters can qualify as a combo though, or does C mean crouch here? (still working on those terms a bit).
 
I think Mina is one step higher then that, maybe two. I don't see her as gimmicky, just heavily underplayed. Oh well, only one way to work it, try to prove people wrong.
 
RedDjinn said:
Well guess i'm a prick then.... either way I was just tired of this guy always telling me I'm wrong in a thread somewhere... Also this is a tier discussion thread you should probably leave your emotions at the house... If I hurt anyones poor little feelings I apologize but again this is a forum so take it as you will....
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i tested it this morning and you were right, im sorry. i wasnt hitting the jf. bleh. no offense, but you HAD said before that wsk ch lead to a guaranteed 1k and someone corrected you on that. i didnt see him calling you a month old noob or anything; it was a simple mistake and it was corrected.

let it be noted that my feelings werent hurt in the least bit either, you were just being an asshole over something that wasnt that big of a deal.

either way, soph is definitely up there and i still think cass is up there. i also played a good sieg recently (catoblepas i think was his name? some level 100 dude with 900 some wins and 100 losses; i still won :p), and i think that he's definitely above c tier. although, i will admit 66b doesnt have the godly 180 degree tracking it used to.
 
tribal & co. Please take your yoshi pissing contest elsewhere.

Manta, thanks for the useful interjection. I mean, I know Voldo has good damage, his set ups are ok, but maybe I'm just not seeing the right things when I play against him? Elaborate for everyone's sake.
 
Cervantes (iTP is sick (214:6). If you argue this, go into practice mode and try this move out. If you don't see it, you're new and welcome to Soul Calibur. If you're a vet of this game and still don't see it.....well......you're a scrub or blind, don't know what to tell you. iTP is one of the best things I've ever seen in SC history)

Yoshi (has weapons to deal w/anything)

Amy (safe. On everything)

Voldo (safe. Too good. The VERY few times I've played Enkindu and Manta have shown me the light)

Lizardman (cheap. Can own soul gauge. 66A is one of the best moves in the game (safe, TC, stun on CH, great on hit too)

Other chars that seem really strong:

Cass, Sophie (not as good as everybody says. Sorry, she's not), Siegfried, Setsuka, Taki
 
ShenRii said:
Raphael's move has this 'feature' since his appearance in SC II.

And Hilde is already strong, check out this combo by wil:
C3 B, 44K, C2 BB, C3 A, C2 BB, C2 AA = 101~109
CH FC C3 AKB, 44K, C2 BB, C3 A, C2BB, C2 AA = 93
Click to expand...

My friend plays Raphael since SC2 and I don't recall a single move missing because it hit between the legs of the rival.

Those combos are not so easy to pull. Look at the games by Yuan, he does the other one, more basic, way less damage. Range, and especially the very strict timing, are some issues with it.

Considering a character to be "strong" because she has two combos that are barely used is a bit insulting...
You could have added that the fourth charge level of her B deals 190 damage.
 
tribaL said:
i tested it this morning and you were right, im sorry. i wasnt hitting the jf. bleh. no offense, but you HAD said before that wsk ch lead to a guaranteed 1k and someone corrected you on that. i didnt see him calling you a month old noob or anything; it was a simple mistake and it was corrected.

let it be noted that my feelings werent hurt in the least bit either, you were just being an asshole over something that wasnt that big of a deal.

either way, soph is definitely up there and i still think cass is up there. i also played a good sieg recently (catoblepas i think was his name? some level 100 dude with 900 some wins and 100 losses; i still won :p), and i think that he's definitely above c tier. although, i will admit 66b doesnt have the godly 180 degree tracking it used to.
Click to expand...

actually i corrected myself on that....
 
KoshTheKoala said:
A lot of people I know, including me, think Lizardman is dependent on moves that no one has seen before, making him a very gimmicky character.
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I disagree fully. Lizardman's only gimmicks are 1[K] and Crawl, and 1[K] even as-is, is still a solid low (mainly cuz it's one of the three good ones he has).

All the other tools he has are rock solid. BB, 6B, 66A, 3A, 4B, 4K. Plus he does very good damage (CH 66B+K, 11B), extremely safe with all these BnB pokes, and hurts the soul gauge easily off of stuff like wakeup A+Bs and the other plenty of safe mids the opp ends up blocking. He really shines up close and at mid range.

The absolute one thing that I hate about him though is that he only has THREE viable low attacks. 11A (safe, but slow). 1[K] (can surprise and does nice damage, but still slow enough to block if you're paying attention and highly unsafe). 2K (not meaty at all, and doesn't even hit grounded). He's got good throw damage, but that's still no sub for good lows.

arstal said:
I think Mina is one step higher then that, maybe two. I don't see her as gimmicky, just heavily underplayed. Oh well, only one way to work it, try to prove people wrong.
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Mina's not that good. I've been maining her for a while and she simply doesn't do enough damage nor have enough safety. Her tiprange game is huge, pointless liability; it only serves to makes her damage output inconsistent.

Stepping to her left makes her cry and damned near anything she does on block gets Angel Stabbed.
 
Cirex said:
My friend plays Raphael since SC2 and I don't recall a single move missing because it hit between the legs of the rival.

Those combos are not so easy to pull. Look at the games by Yuan, he does the other one, more basic, way less damage. Range, and especially the very strict timing, are some issues with it.

Considering a character to be "strong" because she has two combos that are barely used is a bit insulting...
You could have added that the fourth charge level of her B deals 190 damage.
Click to expand...

If I can do the combos online then I expect anyone to be able to pull them off offline with the right amount of training. People also have to learn to see when the whole combo can connect and when it can't, and when it's better to go for B+K due to the directional change of it. The only reason those combos are barely used be people at this point in time is becuase they are difficult to do (!), takes a while to get them down I would know since I've spent around 10 hours in training to do so.
Also another reason why Hilde is strong is because of her charge A game with the auto-GI's, ringout range etc.

But I've learned that there's really no point in trying to argue on these forums why Hilde is strong since people are already set in their path and don't dare to go into training to check the stuff I and others tell them themselves to see how good it really is. In time when the Hilde players get better you'll see her jumping up those tiers real quick I guarantee you that.
 
E.C. said:
Stepping to her left makes her cry and damned near anything she does on block gets Angel Stabbed.
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Um. Everything she does at range is completely safe from that due to pushout or just shear range. Which makes me think you're playing her wrong. We can talk about Hilde who can punish pretty much all of it though. Lol.
 
SkatanMilla said:
If I can do the combos online then I expect anyone to be able to pull them off offline with the right amount of training. People also have to learn to see when the whole combo can connect and when it can't, and when it's better to go for B+K due to the directional change of it. The only reason those combos are barely used be people at this point in time is becuase they are difficult to do (!), takes a while to get them down I would know since I've spent around 10 hours in training to do so.
Also another reason why Hilde is strong is because of her charge A game with the auto-GI's, ringout range etc.

But I've learned that there's really no point in trying to argue on these forums why Hilde is strong since people are already set in their path and don't dare to go into training to check the stuff I and others tell them themselves to see how good it really is. In time when the Hilde players get better you'll see her jumping up those tiers real quick I guarantee you that.
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I asked you to show me online, no answer.
You even said that the timing online was very strict. With 4 bars, the C2 B,B needs very strict timing.
C3 A GIing is not as good as you make it sound neither.
 
Cirex said:
My friend plays Raphael since SC2 and I don't recall a single move missing because it hit between the legs of the rival.

Those combos are not so easy to pull. Look at the games by Yuan, he does the other one, more basic, way less damage. Range, and especially the very strict timing, are some issues with it.

Considering a character to be "strong" because she has two combos that are barely used is a bit insulting...
You could have added that the fourth charge level of her B deals 190 damage.
Click to expand...

The only reason Yuan did not use those combos is because... *drum roll*
It wasn't discovered then.

And I'm not basing her strength just on those combos, so don't accuse me of insulting. Hilde is strong because she's got tools to play at any range. It's just that she's not easy to use because of the button holding thingie.

Your friend who uses Raphael never had stuff like FC 3B, 22_88B (current 33_99B) whiff in between the legs? Lucky him.
 
Cirex said:
I asked you to show me online, no answer.
You even said that the timing online was very strict. With 4 bars, the C2 B,B needs very strict timing.
C3 A GIing is not as good as you make it sound neither.
Click to expand...
I cant do any of those combos online, and i probably wont ever waste my time to try to do them online.

I agree about the C2/C3 A GI, its not too amazing but its defiantly a good pressure stopper. I wonder why not go for JustGI and a C3B combo instead of C2/C3 A auto GI?
 
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